Seamus - What works?

[Toonook]

+1 to everything Buhallin just said.

[Boscotopia]

Personally, I think picking crews after you know the objectives is one of the best ideas Malifaux ever came up with. It's not just "Two random armies just happened to be out walking and stumbled into each other". It's "Our contact in the Guild warehouse says they're shipping an artifact they pulled out of the sewers. Colette, you're the subtle one, think you can snatch it?" It has a touch of realism to it that I like, and an inherent narrative feel that makes a lot more sense than every battle starting with "Well, we don't know what they're going to have to do, but let's send Seamus."

Up to you as you like to play, of course, but IMHO it's going to lead to more bad games and misses out on one of the more unique aspects of Malifaux.

And, finally, sticking to theme is what you make of it QUOTE]

Awesome example of how the game SHOULD unfold. You actually got me wondering if Collette was going to break in..... but wait! I wonder who is going to be guarding the place? I hope it is not Sonnia, for her sake. I wish the game was built that way, but it isn't. People do not play that way, Buhallin, otherwise these forums would be full of questions about how Hanged lore would fit with Leveticus or would it be a better fit to the theme if they went with Nico. Yes, some threads do exist for fluff but people did not start slapping Shikome into Marcus' crew over fluff, nor did they add Night Terrors to everything they possibly could because it fit the story - they added them to win. I am all about winning, but you are missing the point some of the other posters have been trying to make. THEY have a campaign in their mind. They ARE Seamus or whatever Master they picked. No matter what is waiting at the warehouse (God, please be vacant!) he has to face it because that is what he as Seamus has to do today. He ran out of food and needs it or there is medicine; it stinks this is not his strong suit but you can't switch who you are and you can't starve or cough all night. Some players pick a Master and for that week, month, year, they are that character - it is not about winning, it is not about picking the most efficient crew, it is about creating something real...... at least to that player. This game is open to all types of players and those with similar vision will gravitate toward one another, but saying they are missing out just because they do not have the same vision as you is just silly.

Oh, by the way, Collette is not leaving that warehouse alive.

[Gruesome]

Finally, a purist.

Stick to YOUR story. Malifaux is most fun when you can imagine the scenario playing out on the board in front of you.

Yes, you are at a disadvantage. Yes, you will lose to people who like to take the latest tricks. So what? It is a miniatures game. I would rather have an opponent that has a story to tell than some guy who, shockingly, brings Von schill half the time.

Cheers.

Except that he was replying to me who was only pointing out that by taking their experiences from OTHER GAMES, they did not want to construct crews based upon the strats and schemes of a given round of Malifaux.

All I was doing was saying that unlike other games, Malifaux was really designed from the ground up to be about the VP from strats and schemes and that as such, models that would never be in an all-comers list in a million years actually get to see the light of day because they might be ideal for THAT scenario. So, I fail to see how refusing to accept that Malifaux is NOT LIKE OTHER GAMES is "sticking to a story".

Also, tailoring to the strats and schemes is NOT "taking the latest tricks". In fact, the "latest tricks" is likely closer to taking as broken a 35SS list as possible all-comers list so that you never have to change anything.

But, again, people can play how they want. Its a game. (And its called Malifaux, not "our experiences from OTHER games")

[Buhallin]

This game is open to all types of players and those with similar vision will gravitate toward one another, but saying they are missing out just because they do not have the same vision as you is just silly.

Well, if they're picking crews before the strategy is known, then pretty much by raw definition they're missing out on picking crews after strategy is known, right?

Don't get me wrong - I understand your point. I'm not trying to say that their approach to fluff is any worst. A "behind the lines" ongoing campaign can be fun and if that's what they want to do then more power to them.

BUT... Malifaux isn't other games. It's not designed with that in mind. I think this is the part most of us take exception to:

no need for optimising, powergaming, list switching or similar. Semi-Casual play is preferable to Competitive play in our group.

List switching in Malifaux isn't optimizing, or powergaming, or purely Competitive. It's a core part of the balance and fluff of the game, and picking crews after strategy doesn't violate fluff or put you in the powergaming realm.

The objection to crafting crews feels very much like it's brought over from other game systems, and it doesn't really fit Malifaux very well.

[Jswiers]

The objection to crafting crews feels very much like it's brought over from other game systems, and it doesn't really fit Malifaux very well.

My point on wanting themed lists (belles in seamus) withstanding, I'll comment on this idea:

The objection is only vaguely brought from other games. It is more brought from people not wanting our malifaux games being:

"Oh look, he's a ressurectionist, and I have to deliver a message. Let me just throw in these two models which reem undead, and add in this flying speedy model to do the mission. Oh good. This will be easy".

We don't want it to be about owning 30 models, so you can grab what is needed to optimise in the current mission against the current crew.

We want Seamus and his belles vs. Rasputina and her ice thingies, or vs. Hoffman and his robots. Not some mishmash of random power models and silver bullets cruising for a quick win.

[Buhallin]

"Oh look, he's a ressurectionist, and I have to deliver a message. Let me just throw in these two models which reem undead, and add in this flying speedy model to do the mission. Oh good. This will be easy".

You seem to have a rather skewed view of what it takes to get to "This will be easy". Crew selection goes both ways. You need to deliver a message to my rezzers? Seamus is a good start - Trail of Fear, Terrifying, Undead Psychosis, and the Avatar of Dread all make that a very unpleasant prospect even before I start including other models. I'd probably also throw in a Hanged - a Horrifying hit and a locked for the rest of the game will pretty much take a model out of consideration for Delivery if there's another Terrifying to deal with. I MIGHT even take the Copycat, as Mistaken Identity can turn your flyer's "Almost got you" into a "Err, where'd he go George?" Or I might take McMourning, whose incredible speed will make it very hard to Deliver to him even before you have to survive a turn of his displeasure. Or Kirai, who has so many movement options getting anywhere near her will be a chore.

If your group really wants to lock your crews to subfactions without exception, that's your choice and preference. If you don't want to buy any more models, that's also your choice. But please don't imply that strategy-before-crew somehow makes auto-win crews the norm - it really doesn't.

Edited June 28, 2012 by Buhallin

[Gensuke626]

We want Seamus and his belles vs. Rasputina and her ice thingies, or vs. Hoffman and his robots. Not some mishmash of random power models and silver bullets cruising for a quick win.

There is a vast difference between Mishmash of Random power models and Seamus and his belles as well as a crooligan/necropunk or two to get the job done.

I can't tell you how to play your game and you're not playing it wrong, but I agree with many of the posters here that choosing your crew before flipping for strategy and sticking so tightly to 'theme' that you won't even consider models outside a given 'theme' is basically missing out on a unique aspect of Malifaux's gaming experience.

Fluffwise, we know that the Ressurectionists know each other. It does not destroy the suspension of disbelief for Seamus to send a message to McMourning saying "Going to be robbing a guild Supply Train tonight. Could I borrow one of those hulking abominations from your lab, old boy?" or to Nicodem saying "Might need a bit of muscle for a scheme I've got on me mind. Here's a few stones. Be a good man and send one of your shambling Nipponese swordsmen my way, would you?"

[Guy in Suit]

I don't understand this thread at all.

If they are enjoying playing their starter boxes and closing themselves off to the tactical depth of the game - good for them.

But complaining about balance when you are only using a fraction of the rules doesn't make much sense.

[Gruesome]

I don't understand this thread at all.

If they are enjoying playing their starter boxes and closing themselves off to the tactical depth of the game - good for them.

My personal reaction is based upon the original stated reason for them wanting to run a single list being because of their experiences from other games. All I've tried to do is communicate as clearly as I could that comparisons to other games are not valid with Malifaux, IMO.

Fluff and all the rest of it felt like tacked on arguments to me, but as I said early on, they should play however the heck they want but don't try to post on in the thread claims that actually tailoring to the specific scenarios is somehow power-gaming or super-competitive/non-casual. Its just playing the rules as laid out and actually sometimes getting the opportunity to make use of weaker models but that actually fit a specific strat well.

[Jswiers]

If it helps, we've also had the experience of one powergamer turning up with his completely optimised against someone else list and just crushing them.

We also, whenever talking to our friends from other clubs, hear heaps of tales about how combination X won the last 5 of their events and has had to be internally banned, only for combination Y to take over. We don't like the sound of that.

As I keep saying. We DO NOT LIKE the way the game plays out when someone gets to pick their faction as a response to anothers. We DO LIKE flavourful games using the set subfactions.

I really don't understand why the concept that people like something different from other people is so upsetting to you guys.

It doesn't upset me that you like playing the game much more competitively, so why be so offended that I like a casual game, based on playing the subfactions, against friends, for a few hours of fun?

[edit]: Re: Fluff argument being tacked on. Its not about desiring fluff. Its about knowing that doing thematic lists will give us a nice experience.

Edited June 29, 2012 by Jswiers

[Mako]

I don't know if it helps any, but the few times I play I tend to take a master rather than a faction (I only like one or two from each from a painting viewpoint). And I stay in theme as far as I can, and only change my crew a little depending on the strategy.

So my Kirai crew starts off with the same core, and I'll swap in and out Datsue ba, night terrors and such, to give me more significant models or harder to kill things. But I still only use her thematic models. I realise taking Kirai skews this as her thematic stuff is pretty solid, but I don't see why it can't be a good middle ground for a non-competitive environment. Take only themed models, but allow a bit of customising to fit the mission a little.

Besides that, I quite like the sound of a group that plays for theme and fun, where winning and losing don't really matter as long as its funny!

[Gruesome]

As I keep saying. We DO NOT LIKE the way the game plays out when someone gets to pick their faction as a response to anothers. We DO LIKE flavourful games using the set subfactions.

I really don't understand why the concept that people like something different from other people is so upsetting to you guys.

It doesn't upset me that you like playing the game much more competitively, so why be so offended that I like a casual game, based on playing the subfactions, against friends, for a few hours of fun?

I will try to say this for myself one last time...

Every comment I have made was regarding your bringing the baggage of other games to Malifaux and I was simply trying to explain that this game is different.

I do not play the game "competitively", I play for fun and happen to go to tournaments on occasion in which, if allowed, I have a bottle of whiskey with me and continue to play for fun. Tailoring a crew to the specific strats and schemes is not "competitive", it is basic Malifaux rule mechanics and allows me to include models that in many other situations never see the light of day. I like being able to use niche things that are not powerful, but might have one ability that makes them ideal for a situation. That does not make me "competitive" in the sense that I believe you intend it. It makes me someone that likes to try different things out and that plays Malifaux by the rules as laid out in the manual. If I were "competitive", I would come here and ask everyone what models I should get that will be most powerful most of the time and stick to that list because it had some interactions that always worked. I am not "competitive" in the game, stop trying to tell me I am.

Everything I say here is about what you are saying in the forum, I do not care how you play the game with your friends. Have fun.

Edited June 29, 2012 by Gruesome

[Boscotopia]

If it helps, we've also had the experience of one powergamer turning up with his completely optimised against someone else list and just crushing them.

We also, whenever talking to our friends from other clubs, hear heaps of tales about how combination X won the last 5 of their events and has had to be internally banned, only for combination Y to take over. We don't like the sound of that.

As I keep saying. We DO NOT LIKE the way the game plays out when someone gets to pick their faction as a response to anothers. We DO LIKE flavourful games using the set subfactions.

I really don't understand why the concept that people like something different from other people is so upsetting to you guys.

It doesn't upset me that you like playing the game much more competitively, so why be so offended that I like a casual game, based on playing the subfactions, against friends, for a few hours of fun?

[edit]: Re: Fluff argument being tacked on. Its not about desiring fluff. Its about knowing that doing thematic lists will give us a nice experience.

+ 1

[Buhallin]

As I keep saying. We DO NOT LIKE the way the game plays out when someone gets to pick their faction as a response to anothers. We DO LIKE flavourful games using the set subfactions.

I'm really confused by this. Nobody gets to choose their faction or crew in response - at least in theory, players reveal their factions at the same time, you flip for strategies, and then you pick your crews separately and independently, with them revealed at the same time. You then pick schemes.

Things like what you're describing make me think you're doing something wrong. Not "wrong" in the snarky sense of "You shouldn't play that way" but wrong in the sense of "You're trying to fix problems that don't exist because you don't understand the actual rules." Maybe you do, and that's fine - people have said repeatedly that if you really want to play that way, it's fine. But the way you seem to want to play Malifaux will, in the experience of a lot of us, lead to MORE problems.

For example, Malifaux does have some masters who are generally considered better than others, and some who are better against other factions than others. As a simple example, I like McMourning against Arcanists, because he's fast and has less need of corpses than, say, Nicodem, and all the Arcanists except Marcus (who is generally less used) are construct-heavy. Playing fixed subfactions isn't going to do much to help Nicodem against Colette.

So, there's really no reason to be this defensive. I don't think anyone is telling you that you can't play the game fixed-crew locked to subfaction. We're just confused as to why you see the need to. It's really not about playing competitively vs. casual - which you're starting to border on insulting over. But it does seem to me like you're trying to fix problems that simply don't exist, and you're making a worse (less balanced, less interesting, more repetitive) game in the process.

[Dustcrusher]

Buhallin's post above sums it up nicely, but I'll try to add something worthwhile.

By all means, play how you want to play. Refusing to use the list-tailoring mechanic may mean missing out on what is for most players a fun aspect of Malifaux (and 100% legit and "fair" in the confines of the rules).

Tailoring is a dirty word in most minigames. Proper etiquette is to show up at your game with a final list locked-in, and tailoring is cheating (or at least poor form). Malifaux is not like those games. Playing Malifaux without list-building is like eating Ethiopian food with a fork and knife- it can be enjoyable, but you're missing out on something.

I prefer to think of the list tailoring mechanic this way- each player is getting an intelligence briefing on their objectives before they go and select the right team for the job. What you have (Seamus and Molly's boxed sets) already allows you to test out the tailoring aspect. If you want to keep it fluffy, just get a pack of Dead Doxies, a Necrotic Machine for Molly, and the Copycat Killer or Grave Spirit and call it done.

In many cases, a starter plus a couple of blisters will cover most of your needs strategy-wise without breaking the bank, and even more so if you're willing to get a second Master or Henchman.

--------------------------------

All that said, I'm seeing a very valid question underneath their complaints, but it should probably be in another thread at another time: "why are some masters so much better when staying in-theme than others?"

I can empathize with Jswiers and Bosco's frustrations- it sounds like they were hoping to start small and gradually build if they liked the game enough, and that they are big into the fluff. Thus my suggestion to start small with the tailoring and see if it works out.

[Blog]

I will try to say this for myself one last time...

Every comment I have made was regarding your bringing the baggage of other games to Malifaux and I was simply trying to explain that this game is different.

I do not play the game "competitively", I play for fun and happen to go to tournaments on occasion in which, if allowed, I have a bottle of whiskey with me and continue to play for fun. Tailoring a crew to the specific strats and schemes is not "competitive", it is basic Malifaux rule mechanics and allows me to include models that in many other situations never see the light of day. I like being able to use niche things that are not powerful, but might have one ability that makes them ideal for a situation. That does not make me "competitive" in the sense that I believe you intend it. It makes me someone that likes to try different things out and that plays Malifaux by the rules as laid out in the manual. If I were "competitive", I would come here and ask everyone what models I should get that will be most powerful most of the time and stick to that list because it had some interactions that always worked. I am not "competitive" in the game, stop trying to tell me I am.

Everything I say here is about what you are saying in the forum, I do not care how you play the game with your friends. Have fun.

This x1000.

[Elohel]

I see both sides to this "discussion."

I started playing Malifaux because I really liked some of the models, and specifically the theme. The first thing I did when my friends all collectively decided to play this game was pick up a Seamus box set on look alone. I love the idea of a horde of zombie hookers. Its fantastic. I then approached the game like I did in all other mini games, I built a gang around a theme, the theme being "What would you find in a house of ill repute? Now make it undead."

I can tell you for free, that you wont find katana wielding warriors in house of ill repute. Nor autospy victims, animal frankenstein monsters, grave diggers, miners, vultures, Japanese serpent spirits, etc. (Never saw any of that stuff during that documentary on HBO...)

And I think thats the "problem" with Malifaux. The gangs are so thematic that a lot of people find it hard to reason why Johan would work with Seamus to slaughter an MSU gang. So you have very distinct themes within a faction.

Now don't get me wrong, I like the idea of adapting your list to the scenario and your schemes. It does add a certain element to the game. What I have done, to appease both parts of the game for me: the thematic and the tactical flexibility; was to start modeling proxies for different models that would improve my gang, but remain in theme. To such an end I proxy Jack Daw with Mistress Jacqueline, the BDSM Mistress of the House, who died during an erotic asphyxiation episode. Now I get to use Jack Daw, and stay within theme. And I get a modeling challenge. (I made her from Lilith from Anima Tactics. http://www.thewarstore.com/media/CIS/CISCS1035.jpg

I bent her legs so that the toes pointed closer together, lopped off that head and repinned it at a very unnatural angle supported by hobbywire twined with GS to make a rope which I attacted to the sword whip and made the sword whip look like rope. When I get home I will post a pick if I can remember.)

I think if this is the way to approach the game if you cant get past theme aspect (like I cant). Stick to a theme and then convert models to suit that them and what the model will be.

For instance, I have a Viktoria Secrets Gang. My Convict Gunslinger is a babe model from Privateer Press. (as I was searching for a pic of what I used for Mistress Jacqueline I found what I am going to proxy as a Freikorps librarian to fit my Damsels of Doom gang: http://www.thewarstore.com/media/CIS/FFGCS3006.jpg

Now off to find a sexy Von Schill. So you see, you can do both, Theme and Tactics.

Edited June 29, 2012 by Elohel
Typo Correction

[Gensuke626]

If it helps, we've also had the experience of one powergamer turning up with his completely optimised against someone else list and just crushing them.

We also, whenever talking to our friends from other clubs, hear heaps of tales about how combination X won the last 5 of their events and has had to be internally banned, only for combination Y to take over. We don't like the sound of that.

As I keep saying. We DO NOT LIKE the way the game plays out when someone gets to pick their faction as a response to anothers. We DO LIKE flavourful games using the set subfactions.

I really don't understand why the concept that people like something different from other people is so upsetting to you guys.

It doesn't upset me that you like playing the game much more competitively, so why be so offended that I like a casual game, based on playing the subfactions, against friends, for a few hours of fun?

[edit]: Re: Fluff argument being tacked on. Its not about desiring fluff. Its about knowing that doing thematic lists will give us a nice experience.

There are a few points in this that I'd like to discuss.

1. I'm not sure if the power gamer that showed up was playing Malifaux or some other game...but if you and your friends aren't power gamers why is that a problem between you and your friends?

2. So you and your friends don't want to use power combos? That's fine. Don't use them. No one is forcing you to.

3. As others have said, you don't pick your Faction in response to their faction. You both select factions before going in. You can pick your list in response to their faction and the strategy flipped, but that's different from crafting a nemesis list for their army.

4. You liking something different from me is not upsetting to me. What upsets me is that it sounds like you're throwing out an important aspect of the game because of experiences with other games. In other words, to me it sounds like you are letting your prejudices from other games influence your experience of Malifaux to the point where you are unwilling to try something new and different because of those prejudices.

At no point in this thread did you say 'We tried it the way it says to do it in the book and didn't like it.' You do, however, keep talking about powergamers and powerbuilds and themed subfactions and other people's opinions. To me this is sort of the same thing as someone saying "I don't want to try the New Gourmet Hamburger restaurant in town because I've had McDonalds and I don't like their food."

But that's just my 2 cents. As I said last time, you play the game how you want to play the game. I'm just asking you to have an open mind and try something new.