Kaeris Stacking Burning Counters

[WorldWeary]

I'm rather new to Malifaux (loving it btw), just have the Kaeris box set as you probably know Kaeris relies upon the spreading and detonation of Burning counter/tokens to do damage. However when resolving the burning counters do they stack?

As you know if you have a burning counter when it comes tot he resolve effects stage you must choose whether to suffer slow or 1 wound. My question is if you have multiple counters does the damage stack?

Example: Random has 3 counters, decides to take slow with one of them (I'm working on the logic that slow doesn't stack) does that mean that the remaining two counters are instantly wounds or if you take slow or does it cancel out the other counters all together?

Or is it not possible to stack burning counters in the first place? If looked at other sites and they haven't been clear and I can't find anything about it in the rule book so I was wondering if anybody knew. If you plan to answer please explain fully. Thank you heaps

[NinjaBreadMen]

Burning tokens do stack in terms of a mini being able to have more than one on them at a time, however their effects are not comulative:

RM P19 (emphasis added by me)

"In the resolve Effects Stage, a model with any number of Burning tokens removes all Burning Tokens and either suffers 1 wd or gains slow."

The order in which events occur means the model removes all the tokens and then makes their choice, leaving no further tokens to be removed.

At least that's my understanding. Hope that helps!

NinjaBM

[Stern]

when the tokens resolves you discard ALL burning tokens then choose slow or a wd

[WorldWeary]

Thanks guys, that really helps, thank you

[Requirement]

So it wouldn't be 1 wd per token? Just one wound overall?

[steelwraith]

yea - just 1 wd over all or slow, your choice , total ammount of tokens on the model counts for nothing , 1 or 3 , it makes no diffrence

[Requirement]

Hahahaha, awesome. Kaeris just got a lot less burny in my world.

[Alex]

Hah, Kaeris is still pretty burny in any world! :fireball:

[Sarsnick]

Example: Random has 3 counters, decides to take slow with one of them (I'm working on the logic that slow doesn't stack) does that mean that the remaining two counters are instantly wounds or if you take slow or does it cancel out the other counters all together?

Slow does stack but not in the way you think

A model can gain Slow again if it already has Slow, but it changes nothing. Look up the model 'Alp' in the second book under Neverborn. This model deals damage in Slow and has a special ability that does 1 Wd on something when it gains Slow nearby. I specifically brought up this model because it has reminder text that a model can gain Slow even though it has Slow.

This is the same effect seen when something is hit with an attack that gives Poison 2 when it already has 2 Poison counters. It still has 2 poison counters but they came from a different model.

[Cadilon]

The fact that burning tokens stack can have an effect during the Activation Phase, however.

When Avatar Sonnia hits with her Searing Wave, it does an additional +1 Dg per burning token. It might sound like in most cases the stacking of burning tokens makes no difference, but this is an exception to the rule. There may be others instances, but I couldn't find any.

I bring it up because in some cases I am casual in keeping track of things that likely won't make a difference in the game. In this case, if ASonnia is potentially on the table, burning tokens need to be accurately tracked.

Edited May 20, 2012 by Cadilon

[Golden]

aSonnia can also suck up all burning tokens in a certain area and heal that many wounds.

[gorillawizard]

If slow does stack then this is my question...

If a flesh construct has a burning token on it, and in the resolve effects step the flesh construct goes for slow instead of a wound.

When the Flesh construct activates it has an option to discard a control card to get rid of slow, now as the flesh construct effectively has Slow-Slow but from different sources does discarding the control card get rid of both Slows? or does it just get rid of its own slow? now i'm confused, anyone care to explain?

[Poltron]

Slow in this case would come from 2 different effect: A "true" Slow from the burning token, and Slow from Dumb, which can be removed if you discard a card.

I guess the "true" Slow effect would stick around for the turn. ( but wouldn't stack with Dumb, meaning no need to discard a card this turn to prevent it, you'll be slow anyway ).

At least that's how I would play it, but I could see the opposite: Slow been only 1 effect and thus Dumb requierement removing it altogether.

[morpsele]

the only way that you can remove the slow from dumb and from the burning token is if you discard a joker. Because you gain fast

[TreeNinja]

Actually the second slow doesn't stack . Least not in layers like your thinking. You can't slow a model that is already slowed. Which means that when the flesh construct activates it can discard a card to remove slow and use 2 general AP.

Check out http://www.wyrd-games.net/showthread.php?28596-Fast-Slow-and-stacking-Stacking/page3

Edited May 24, 2012 by JoeS

[Kadeton]

The Flesh Construct starts with the Slow from the Burning Counter. When it activates, it must either discard a card or receive Slow. There is nothing in its rule about losing Slow when it discards, it simply doesn't gain it. So if it discards, it will still have the Slow from burning. If it doesn't discard, it will gain Slow but that will have no additional effect since it's already Slow. If it discards a Joker, it will gain Fast, which will cancel the Slow from burning, and it will act as normal with 2 AP.

[Trevelyan]

I bring it up because in some cases I am casual in keeping track of things that likely won't make a difference in the game. In this case, if ASonnia is potentially on the table, burning tokens need to be accurately tracked.

Also worth tracking if Sonnia is facing an Ortega crew with the potential to remove tokens, and probably a few other scenarios too.

[Barnaberible]

The Flesh Construct starts with the Slow from the Burning Counter. When it activates, it must either discard a card or receive Slow. There is nothing in its rule about losing Slow when it discards, it simply doesn't gain it. So if it discards, it will still have the Slow from burning. If it doesn't discard, it will gain Slow but that will have no additional effect since it's already Slow. If it discards a Joker, it will gain Fast, which will cancel the Slow from burning, and it will act as normal with 2 AP.

This is correct. The situation came up in our game yesterday and this is what we decided, afterwards we messaged Ratty who confirmed.

Basically as I understand it slow stacks but the effects down so FG has 1 slow for burning, will gain 1 slow if he dosent discard a card and will gain fast if he discards a joker, cancelling the slow from burning.

If he had 3 slow effects on then I guess discarding the Joker would make no difference

---------- Post added at 08:10 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:03 AM ----------

Basically as I understand it slow stacks but the effects down so FG has 1 slow for burning, will gain 1 slow if he dosent discard a card and will gain fast if he discards a joker, cancelling the slow from burning.

If he had 3 slow effects on then I guess discarding the Joker would make no difference

Ok cancel that, JoeS link clears up the stacking question but the case of the flesh golem is still the same

discarding a card stops it from getting slow it does not remove the slow it already has, discarding a joker gives it fast which will remove the slow it already has and give it 2 AP

[TreeNinja]

I appoligize I was opperating under the assumption that the flesh construct had slow outright I did not realize that wasn't the case and he didn't recieve slow till he actually activated. I say that he would still get the ability to remove the slow effect with a discard because the ability says he removes slow and not dumb. and because its the effect and not the ability It would work on slow that he recived from a burning token.

[Marcalla]

I appoligize I was opperating under the assumption that the flesh construct had slow outright I did not realize that wasn't the case and he didn't recieve slow till he actually activated. I say that he would still get the ability to remove the slow effect with a discard because the ability says he removes slow and not dumb. and because its the effect and not the ability It would work on slow that he recived from a burning token.

You may want to change your paradigm then.

The V2 card of Dumb doesn't "remove" slow at all, it allows you to prevent receiving slow by discarding a card. Since you already have slow (from the burning token) you are not preventing that slow but preventing the effect of dumb which is to gain slow, not remove it.

[baskinders]

At what point does the Slow effect remove the 1 general AP in an activation? For instance the Flesh Golem example above, the Dumb rule says "At the start of the activation" while Slow removes a general AP either in the "current or next activation, whichever comes first".

So, is it:

1. Flesh Golem activates > Slow kicks in and removes 1 general AP and removes Slow > Dumb kicks in and if you don't discard a card you gain Slow which then removes 1 general AP as it is your current activation, leaving 0 general AP, or

2. Flesh Golem activates > Dumb kicks in and if you don't discard a card you gain Slow> The two Slows kick in and removes 1 general AP and removes both Slows?

And what happens if you don't have a general AP to pay but you receive Slow in you current activation? I.e. I use my last general AP to make a melee attack against an Ice Golem who triggers Chills and gives me Slow. I have no general AP and it's my current activation (because I want to perform my 0 action next) so does Slow simply get removed or does it carry over until I can pay the 1 general AP?

[Subötai]

I would need to read the Flesh Golem card to give you a correct ruling on it, but in general, Slow (and Fast for that matter), do not stack.

As for your second question, if you have no general AP remaining in your activation when you receive Slow, it will carry over to the next activation.

[Headcase2]

At what point does the Slow effect remove the 1 general AP in an activation? For instance the Flesh Golem example above, the Dumb rule says "At the start of the activation" while Slow removes a general AP either in the "current or next activation, whichever comes first".

So, is it:

1. Flesh Golem activates > Slow kicks in and removes 1 general AP and removes Slow > Dumb kicks in and if you don't discard a card you gain Slow which then removes 1 general AP as it is your current activation, leaving 0 general AP, or

2. Flesh Golem activates > Dumb kicks in and if you don't discard a card you gain Slow> The two Slows kick in and removes 1 general AP and removes both Slows?

And what happens if you don't have a general AP to pay but you receive Slow in you current activation? I.e. I use my last general AP to make a melee attack against an Ice Golem who triggers Chills and gives me Slow. I have no general AP and it's my current activation (because I want to perform my 0 action next) so does Slow simply get removed or does it carry over until I can pay the 1 general AP?

You can never lose 2 AP due to slow in a single activation. So if the Flesh Golem receives slow at the strat of his activation he counts as being affected by slow for the rest of that activation, and multiple effects of the same name don't stack.

As for receiving slow during your activation if you have no more AP to lose: the actvation doesn't end (so you could still use your (0) action) but slow would carry over to the next activation.