Lilith Non-Growth list

[Mournafein]

So I've been trying to perfect a non-growth list, for Lilith. Problem is that Lilith synergises most with Nephilim (Obviously), and my group usually plays little scraps. Around 25ss, usually. So for 25, the best I can come up with so far is:

Lilith (Maybe avatar, if I can't find anything better to do with the SS)

Tuco

Lelu

Lilitu

6ss cache.

The idea is to use Tuco and the twins to lure and team up on lower-wp models, using Lilith to cover them and transposition stray models. Cheating damage high, where necessary.

Thoughts, criticism, and suggestions?

[omnivision6]

Waldgeists have great synergy with Lilith. She can creat a forest where and when they need it.

[Mournafein]

6 points, though. While they're good, and Lilith does synergise well with them, they lack the strategic synergy that I would need. I'll need Lilith to be able to plop a forest down on a whim. If the Waldegeist is in a jam, it'd condemn it to take the forest. Also: They would have no wound-recovery ability (Aside from Lilitu's 2 wd heal, if by some strange reason it is within 2" of her). LookIng more towards things that are capable of synergising, with ability to operate independently. I was thinking of bringing a BBS, just to pass Fast around to Tuco.

[notmikehill]

It really depends on your strategies here. This list seems to play pretty well to a destroy the evidence kind of deal. The only problem I can see is if somebody kills one of your twins your list will slowly fizzle as the games goes on.

For a claim jump kind of strategy I'd say:

Lilith

Waldgheist x2

Terror tot x2

Young Nephilim

cache 5

with that list you have a good amount of board control with 2 figures for durability, 2 figures as objective grabbers/transposition targets and the young to clean up in fights. Also, if you can keep the tots alive as the fight goes on you can grow the tots into new youngs.

[Rathnard]

I think people overestimate Lilith's synergy with Nephilim. For her it basically boils down to being able to get blood counters, and having a (0) action that companions Nephilim. The former is only useful if you plan to use a grow list and the latter realistically only needs one Nephilim in the list anyway.

Personally, I'd actualy like to try something like this;

Lilith

3x Silurid 15

Tuco 7 (7SS Pool)

The Silurid should synergise well with Lilth and her Rush of Magic (Leap needs 7's to cast), and Tuco adds a mobile shooting platform to balance out the melee focus of the crew. At 30SS I'd probably add a Terror tot and Primordial Magic, both to up the model count and give me some Transposition options.

Edited May 1, 2012 by Rathnard

[ooshawn]

I look at tuco like every other day in book 3 when i'm bored and he has never impressed me. I dont see why he would be better than two tots

[Mournafein]

Rathnard: I've never used Silurids, so I really can't say if the list is good or not... But I know that Tuco will almost always go with me. Having a mobile shooter is very nice, combined with Lilith. I take him often, and he doesn't disappoint (Even if he's targeted for an objective). If I transposition someone, he can shoot at them, if I don't kill them. Two tots are melee. Removing someone's faction affiliation for an entire encounter is insanely good, if you can hit a unique or master. Against people that like to bunch, the blast is amazing (Som'er Jones and ophelia). Flay in melee. Deploy anywhere but objectives and enemies. Terrifying 13, with a 0 action. An effective wp of 7. And let's not forget nimble.

NotMike: I would take that list, if not for the Tots and Young. I love Lilith, but I'm trying not to revolve around things that grow, as I am trying to avoid that. Tots aren't durable enough for going against Arcanist or Som'er. Thank you though! If you can come up with something without tots, that's be great!

[Q'iq'el]

6 points, though. While they're good, and Lilith does synergise well with them, they lack the strategic synergy that I would need. I'll need Lilith to be able to plop a forest down on a whim. If the Waldegeist is in a jam, it'd condemn it to take the forest.

There's plenty of strategic synergy. You use Waldgeist and the forest it controls to deny opponent the table and hoard his minions where Lilith wants to fight them. If you play on the table with larger woods (GW plasitc wood for example), it is one of the best utility models for her and a great frustration for the opponent.

If you rely only on Illusionary Forest, it perhaps isn't the best to bring the Waldgeist... However you'll have plenty of small forests if you manifest the Avatar, right? They may not be big enough to matter on some tables, but they can do nasty things on city and village tables where you can block entire passages with a well placed 3" forest, esp. if it has a Waldgeist in it.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

Hey there Mournafein, hope I am not too late responding.

My main concern with your list is all the models cost 7ss which is expensive. Your major problem being the Lelu. You won't have enough models to distract your opponent from targeting your force and alpha striking would be not an issue.

Lilith is fast and the twins are pretty stationary support models that love to stick close to each other. So separating them would be bad. If one dies so does the other soon after. So Transpositioning Lelu, your only good target, would be bad becuase then Lelu would be open to be killedand an enemy model would be close to your Lilitu.

So Lilith's signature spell wouldn't get much use.

I say keep Tuco and consider a waldgeist for a defensive model that loves Lilith's forest and a young Nephilim for an offensive model.

Throw in either a Cherub for love or a Primordial Magic for the extra card and you will have an 8 ss pool. And only one model to grow if you wish. (No one is going to think your cheesy for growing a Young to a Mature the old fasion way. :Smug_Puppet2:)

Also a trick you can use is when an opponent sends in a model to get Tuco in melee just transposition that model with the Young Nephilim and now that model has to deal with Lilith and the Waldgeist. Niether of which are easy to kill in melee. And your Young Nephilim is with Tuco ready for some nasty offensive attacks.

Edited May 12, 2012 by Murphy'sLawyer

[the junkie]

In a 30ss game vs Kirai I ran the following.

Lilith

P. Magic

Tuco

Lelu x2

Lilitu

It was light on SS cache but was very effective and killing things. I was dealing with Kirai's spirits who wouldn't help me grow so I tried the list above and boy was it cool. I lost the game 3-6 (shared line in the sand) but even though i was out activated out the wazu I felt I had some really strong activations to deal with the key model or two a turn.

[tadaka]

"I think people overestimate Lilith's synergy with Nephilim"

This is it in a nutshell. NB have some of the best bang for buck models in the game. Hell I don't even use the twins much any more unless slaughter is the game of the game. Arcane/Brutal effigys, Stiched and Tuco all work as well if not better for her then playing a grow list. Its all about what the goal of the game is. Hell if I think the other guy is planing on playing a crew designed to swoop in for a first turn grab treasure or some thing like that I will take Bad Juju just to plop his fat butt on the treasure counter before they can get there. There is no such thing as a best list for a master in this game it all depends on what the goals are.

[Q'iq'el]

The synergy Lilith has with Nephilim isn't a direct one, but it is definitely there.

Sure, Tuco is enough if you plan to use Broodmother only as an Alpha Strike tool.

But you can use it on Black Blood Shaman to give all your engaged Tots Flurry. When you use it on Nekima or even Mature Nephilim, it simply has a bigger impact and not to mention Brood Mother->Bond->Transposition Lelu->Lure back Lelu sort of tricks.

I can see Lilith working with Silurids, but I can't see why they'd be better than 5 Tots on a typical Malifaux table I play. Dropping Bad Juju near the Treasure Counter will be very annoying for the opponent, but it isn't faster than getting your Tots there either (or dropping something fighty with Transposition).

Most importantly, non-growth list doesn't have to mean a non-Nephilim one. Even in the Book 1 times there were perfectly valid Nephilim crews focused around Young Nephilim which didn't bank on growing turn 1. Even if you take Nekima and Tots, you don't have to waste your early activations on growing - you can do it opportunisticaly, because Tots on their own will be good enough to claim most objectives and you don't have to charge the opponent.

For me models like Stitched, Silurids or Bad Juju are too situational to be worth paying for. If I had them lying around (if I played Zoraida or other master), I'd probably use them, very sparringly. And chances are, I'd be taking different master for the occasions where I'd want them as minions. For example, I've never seen or played on a Bayou table for Malifaux. I assume a table made almost entirely of ponds, streams and marshes would favor Silurids heavily. I'd probably take a Stitched or two if I was playing a defensive scenario on a relatively open table. But why wouldn't I take Zoraida for the former and Pandora for the later?! Simply speaking, I'd probably skip on buying these models unless I had a master who uses them constantly and Lilith is not really one of those.

To sum up, I don't think the advantage you get from dropping Nephilim compensates for lost opportunities that may appear during the game, when you play Nephilim (and it's not just Brood Mother or Black Shaman buffs... there are all those extra movements when Tots die, for example. Not something you bank on happening, but an opportunity to put a spinner into the opponent's wheel).

At the same time I've always thought Growth lists are silly and put Lilith on disadvantage in the most crucial phase of the game. Play your Nephilim non-growth style (including Tuco, Twins or whatever you need as you need it) and see how good it actually works for yourself.

Edited May 13, 2012 by Q'iq'el

[Murphy'sLawyer]

Well I love Lilith, but honestly I have never played a grow list. I mean I grow a nephilim every now and then but I don't part take in the Desperate Merc, Shaman, Nekima style that is so talked about.

I just rely on my wits and understanding of Lilith to get the job done. As for how I build lists I never know what my crew will look like till I know what the Strategy and the faction I am facing. But with Lilith I still almost always bring a Waldgeist and now maybe Tuco for the Range threat. (Transposition/Brood Mother just became more vicious in the early game.)

So in a way I can see the argument that Nephilims are given too much credit. But no one can deny that there is some great synergy there.

I did try the Stitched Together/ Waldgeist combo against the Guild shooty list. It was fun blocking all the LoS and forcing his moves as I began to corner him.

[Q'iq'el]

Actually both Black Blood Shaman and Desperate Mercenary are excellent additions to non-growth lists too.

The former makes your Tot and Young (and even Matures) very deadly. Unlike Nekima, he can buff the Twins and Tuco too.

He needs Corpse Counters or Blood Counters to get his buffs off and the DM provides you, potentially, with 3 (one for the killer, one from Blood Sense and one Corpse Counter). You can even spend a turn or two using the DM for something else, before you finally off the poor sucker. *devil*

Nekima, unfortunately, is pidgeon-holed into Growth and Tot-dash lists, so unless you plan to grab multiple objectives with rocket-Tots, there's very little justification to using her in a non-growth list. Not at this price (both physical and in SS).

---------- Post added at 03:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:00 PM ----------

Also note Blood Magic works on all Neverborn, not just Nephilim. Those are quite powerful buffs on their own.

BBS can turn any model into Nephilim to give it some extra buffs, but this is usually too cumbersome. IMO he works better in a Nephilim list that brings 1 or 2 non-nephilim models (like Waldgeist or Stitched).

[Vidiot]

I agree with Junkie's 30ss List:

Lilith

Primordial Magic

Lilitu

Lelu x 2

Tuco

I like the alpha strike potential (if needed for some quick kills) as well as the extra card, extra transposition from the Vomit Worm. Lilitu stays safely back, lures in the victims for the dual Lelus to shred up in melee. Tuco adds in the ranged attacks that were previously missing from my old list (he replaced my Stiched Together).

This crew held up well at Adepticons Cake Match, winning 8-0 over an impressively painted aSeamus crew. While I'd like to be able give all the credit to my crew to his defense he had some REALLY bad draws and with my frequently cycled hand (arcane resevoir, rush of magic, and bloody fate) I was able to overcome aSeamus terrifying more times then not to make it a non-issue and quickly cut him down with his 3Df.

Sadly, I wasn't able to give them a taste of the Masters Tourney due to conflicts. I'm hoping they hold up well come August at Gen Con though...

Edited May 15, 2012 by Vidiot

[Murphy'sLawyer]

Leaving the Twins at home today. Got too much use with Lady Z and want something different.

[Therril_83]

I tend to play very mixed crews when I play Lilith.

I quite often take Silurids, but without Waldgeists I never take more than 2. 3 Silurids are too easy a target for my opponent to choose Extermination:Beasts, since they all need to run together. Waldgeists remove this drawback and are awesome on tables with lots of wood, ofc depending a bit on strategy and what models you're facing. Ranged crews tend to hate Waldgeists.

But one model I do enjoy using is actually Baby Kade. His high Df and Cb makes him quite usefull both offensively and defensively. I've several times managed to hold up half an opponents crew by getting Kade into melee and activated Defensive Stance. Also it's quite nice to be able to dictate an opponents activation order somewhat.