The twins

[Joel]

Today I played a 3-player 35 stone game vs. raspy and the viktorias.

Corners deployment. Both my opponents flipped destroy the evidence, I flipped slaughter.

We ruled that I had to salutatorian moreny myself than they did combined to get my two points, and more than 150% their combined kills to get the full 4.

With that in mind I went for:

Dreamer/LCB - 8 stones

3 daydreams

1 stitched together

lilitu

lelu

lelu

And now I know what the fuss is about! . When the dreamer let the twins out of the bag they wasted little time getting stuck in. In their little bond group they did the job of a second chompy!

I ended up killing 46 stones of models, to my opponents combined count of 28!

Great game, and now I can see why the twins are used so often.

[Ozz]

Twins say hello, you say good bye

But hit them a little (quickly) and they say good bye to.

Though i still don't see what im meant to do with Lilitu, she just seems a 7 stone belle that stops Lelu dying, i need to grasp some uses of things in this game still

[Finnegan]

Though i still don't see what im meant to do with Lilitu, she just seems a 7 stone belle that stops Lelu dying

She's much better at Luring than any Belle thanks to Casting Expert and to her Double Take trigger and to her 4" melee range.

She's very good at finishing off wounded ennemies thanks to sadist.

She's a nice roadblock thanks to her 4" melee range, wicked + sadist and irresistble.

She can prep a Wp attack if with Emotionally Exposed if she doesn't want to lure a model in (say, slow to die + love the job).

She can heal models other than herself and Lelu.

She's got very good defenses for a Nephilim (6 Df + Irresistible).

And she can make more Lelus.

[Q'iq'el]

Isn't "Very good" too much of an emphasis though.

You bring almost two Belles for a price of one Lilitu (so 4 casts instead of 3). You can raise new Belles, you can summon a second Lilitu only if you have Lelu and enough generic Nephilim left and the requirements are very step.

So in SS for SS comparison she isn't much better than Belles, no. Only a bit, where her Trigger goes off or her melee range makes difference (and that is situational).

[CN the Logos]

Isn't "Very good" too much of an emphasis though.

You bring almost two Belles for a price of one Lilitu (so 4 casts instead of 3). You can raise new Belles, you can summon a second Lilitu only if you have Lelu and enough generic Nephilim left and the requirements are very step.

So in SS for SS comparison she isn't much better than Belles, no. Only a bit, where her Trigger goes off or her melee range makes difference (and that is situational).

I'm not sure that looking at Lilitu's abilities in isolation is an accurate reflection of the game. I've never paid 7SS for Lilitu. I pay 14SS for The Twins. It's my Nephilim-list equivalent of Snow Storm or Killjoy or whatever big Death Star-esque model you want to compare it to, only it's two smaller models instead of one bigger one. The Belles don't come with a Lelu equivalent, and Lelu is amazing.

I've also never had much trouble getting Double Take to trigger when I needed it; three Lures plus a control hand generally results in at least one decentish Mask showing up.

I will note that I have never been able to summon another Lelu, but then again I've never tried any of the crazier blood farming lists and my main opponent plays Rasputina. Damn Gamins and their lack of drainable blood. :Sad_Puppet2:

[Joel]

Has anyone here ever spent the 28 stones for 2 of each twin? Hw did I work out? Was it overkill?

[Q'iq'el]

I'm not sure that looking at Lilitu's abilities in isolation is an accurate reflection of the game. I've never paid 7SS for Lilitu. I pay 14SS for The Twins. It's my Nephilim-list equivalent of Snow Storm or Killjoy or whatever big Death Star-esque model you want to compare it to, only it's two smaller models instead of one bigger one. The Belles don't come with a Lelu equivalent, and Lelu is amazing.

I'm not taking anything in isolation. Lure is an amazing spell. To say Lilitu is so much better than Belles in casting it is the exact pro-(or anti- depending where you sit) neverborn bias we see all the time. Yes, she is better than Belle, but she costs twice as much.

For just 1 SS more two Belles are almost better than Lilitu (everything depends on whether the trigger goes off or not). They have their own debuff to place on the victim, and they have the same number of casts between themselves (if they go for the debuff, because that's one cast more if they forego it). You say Belles don't come with Lilitu equivalent, but they sort of do - for the remaining 6 points you can choose from quite a selection of pretty fighty undead models. A Punk Zombie with 2 Belles to Lure for it is just crazy - 3 Cb7 Paired weapon strikes, that can do up to 6 damage each and get to damage with trigger? Yeah, Lelu can possibly beat that, but often it will be an overkill anyway.

And sure, Lelu and Lilitu will heal, Undead can be healed or can be brought back. These setups are really very comparable.

I know, you may say The Dreamer can take Twins around the table and drop them on anyone. Sure, that's the Dreamer though. If you take the Twins with Lilith, as I often do, you actually have to do something about Lelu being so damn slow (Transposition being the obvious choice, but Mature's Carry can do the job too). And I love summoning Punk Zombies directly into the combat, after the Belles have lured the opponent in. People tend to think "it's only a Belle" and they save up the cards for the later, rather than resisting the lure... and then they find themselves fighting a Punk Zombie, Rogue Necromancy or a Flesh Construct, depending on the # of CC available.

In the end, whether you take it in context of the crew, or out of context, it is the Lure which is an insanely good ability. For the SS cost Belles actually do it very comparably to Lilitu - she can get a free cast off if she gets the right suit, they can use that extra AP to give the opponent Slow or −2 Df - neither a bad proposition, depending on whether you go for the kill or want to minimize the potential counter-attack.

[Calmdown]

Yep, the twins are pretty silly. Welcome to Neverborn

[Finnegan]

Isn't "Very good" too much of an emphasis though.

Granted. "Pretty good" would be more accurate, if "pretty good" can be said to be accurate

I agree with your points when comparing two Belles to a Lilitu (and having two models rather than one can help in out-activating).

I will, however, point out that Lelu can Bond Lilitu from anywhere on the board, meaning it's a lot safer for him to maul someone, since he can be lured back immediately, than it is for a Punk zombie, who has to wait. And the reverse holds true too: Lilitu can bond Lelu, meaning she can lure someone to him and then have him attack immediately afterwards, whereas the punk would have to wait. Sure, the punk isn't easy to kill, but it is objectively strategically better to be able to take away from your opponent the opportunity to retaliate than it is to risk the fickle gods of chance letting your melee hitter die before he can do anything at all.

I would say that it's not that easy to summon a punk zombie and that you can summon a lelu into combat too with Lilitu, but I believe (and keep in mind I've never played as resers) that it's easier to get a punk zombie, so the point is moot.

[birdbath]

I hear that the twins are very good but the problem is that I don't like the models

Damn rock and a hard place...

[Q'iq'el]

I will, however, point out that Lelu can Bond Lilitu from anywhere on the board, meaning it's a lot safer for him to maul someone, since he can be lured back immediately, than it is for a Punk zombie, who has to wait. And the reverse holds true too: Lilitu can bond Lelu, meaning she can lure someone to him and then have him attack immediately afterwards, whereas the punk would have to wait. Sure, the punk isn't easy to kill, but it is objectively strategically better to be able to take away from your opponent the opportunity to retaliate than it is to risk the fickle gods of chance letting your melee hitter die before he can do anything at all.

This is a good point, but this advantage is only situational. I personally use it a lot to lure Lelu back into safety after Lilith Transpositions him near the target, but there are plenty of situations where Bonding them is irrelevant to my objectives.

Ability to companion Belles is limited to certain builds only, on the other hand the Punk Zombie doesn't have to wait - he can be summoned straight into combat (again, other builds). There are many possibilities to deal with tactical situations on the table. Sure, Lilitu and Lelu have some insanely good options, but with all that they are only a slightly above some other combos, when you start to consider the cost (Cassandra with Performer and a Mannequin, for example, is in the same ballpark and the Siren's call is even scarier in many situations than Lure).

[maxvonlaibach]

I hear that the twins are very good but the problem is that I don't like the models

Damn rock and a hard place...

That's the reason I'm seriously considering taking PP's satyxis raiders/captain as Lilitu, only I haven't figured out who I want for Lelu yet.

[Calmdown]

I hear that the twins are very good but the problem is that I don't like the models

Damn rock and a hard place...

If you stand Lelu and Nightmare Chompy next to eachother, they're hi-5'ing. What's not to like?

[Guy in Suit]

I To say Lilitu is so much better than Belles in casting it is the exact pro-(or anti- depending where you sit) neverborn bias we see all the time.

[CN the Logos]

I'm not taking anything in isolation. Lure is an amazing spell. To say Lilitu is so much better than Belles in casting it is the exact pro-(or anti- depending where you sit) neverborn bias we see all the time. Yes' date= she is better than Belle, but she costs twice as much.

All I meant was that since no one just takes Lilitu (unless they've figured out some way to get a Lelu into play on the first turn, guaranteed, and have it be worth the cost in blood, another lost Nephil, and AP) it would make more sense to compare Lilitu and Lelu to two Belles plus whatever else the Ressers can bring with the remaining six SS. I'm not extremely familiar with Ressers, never having played them.

That does sound pretty good, but I've never played against one. Which is odd, now that I think about it, given that they come in a starter box. Maybe my local Resser players just don't know a decent model when they see it?

In any case, the value of the Twins isn't just in damage; in my experience, I've found that having flight, float, and and/or just the ability to ignore movement penalties from terrain makes my nephilim significantly more awesome, and then they've got a whole host of other entertaining abilities. Other than raw damage, what are the Punk Zombie's selling points?

But doesn't summoning more undead generally require a successfully cast spell? Again, not that familiar with Ressers, but that was my impression. Meanwhile the healing and Regeneration of the Twins just happens automatically.

Lelu's slow, but not that slow. Melee Expert means he can walk 8" and still attack afterwards, if need be. No real commentary on the summoning trick, except that it seems like the sort of thing that would only catch a particular opponent off guard once.

Just so that I'm clear, I agree that the Neverborn are not as ludicrously overpowered as some people believe (now that the Dreamer's been fixed). A bit more powerful, yes. Enough to make a difference in high-level tournament play, yes. But not so much so that it wrecks the game. Two Belles or one Lilitu are both worth taking for their cost, I think. I'm mostly continuing the discussion because I'm genuinely interested in the options available here (I might want to pass the advice along to the local Shamus player).

Thanks for mentioning those. I was looking for a model to proxy for Lilitu; in my case I like the scupt well enough, but her left arm has fallen off three times and now I've lost it. I wish Wyrd would hurry up and make the alternate Lilitu implied by the artwork.

...And now I need to spend at least $150 on Nightmare Chompy. Dammit Calmdown, think of my poor wallet!