Hamelin or Leveticus (or neither)?

[Trevelyan]

I'm relatively new to Malifaux. I have a small Ortega crew (the box set plus Abuela and the Enslaved Nephilim) and have had some success playing a few games against Lucius and Kaeris. We've got a few more new players joining us soon, and it look as if they will be bringing the Dreamer and Kirai to the table. Since there will be five of us and the guy with Lucius just picked up Lady Justice, I have decided to focus on the Outcasts so we have a good mix of crews between us all.

Given the above mix of masters and henchmen, and considering that I won't mind people taking the family out for a spin against me in the interests of variety, which Outcast master do people recommend that I start with and why? I'm initially inclined towards either Hamelin or Leveticus, but open to other suggestions. Also, beyond the starting box set for each master, what minis should I pick up to have a reasonable 35ss crew?

[TimeLapse]

These two lists are simaler, Levy can do most of what hamilin can do better. Hamilin can get alot of rats into play and can make himself untargetable it takes a bit of time but he can do it, he is limited in model choices and any models with a terrifying number will render your rats uselss. Both levy and Hamilin have a trick that makes them come back from the dead, levy does it better. They both also have a mean melee attack and levys is better.

Levy has some good summing ablity and has alot of fantastic spells, in fact, he rusty alice are the core of your list. Played right levy will kill everything with alice in support, any other model is gravy in his list.

They both take some time to get used to. Power wise levy is better all around, hamilin has a stigma and allot of plays hate him simply because they don't know how to deal with him, they will say he is op and hate him but as some of the top hamilin players will tell you its because they just don't know how to deal with him. Once players know how to deal with him he goes form tear one to tear 2 quickly.

So it depends on you here and what models you like.

I hope this helps,

Andrew

[magicpockets]

He's still tier one, just not tier "0" as people seem to think - and overall Hamelin is a much stronger Master than Levi, same for the crew. That said, Levi gives you a lot of diversity in model choices and seems to be less "hated" by the majority

[Trevelyan]

Thanks for answers so far.

The guy with the Dreamer is also pretty experienced at other TT battle games. I've heard that Lord Chompy Bits can easily kill Leveticus and his waifs but might have a tougher time against Hamelin. Is that a legitimate concern, or is the threat of LCB somewhat overstated? Or should I just use Perdita against LCB and pick an Outcast master without worrying about the Dreamer?

[Hjelmen]

I think that the Dreamer is much less of an issue as of the latest errata. I wouldn't know from experience, but it seems to me that you'll be just fine using Leveticus against the Dreamer, and not have to worry about getting murderized turn one as "before"

[CrouchingMoose]

The reason dreamer used to be a problem for levi was because turn 1 there is only 1 waif and it was only 6 inches away from levi (until levi makes a new one). dreamer USED TO be able to fly all the way across the board and drop his entire crew in between levi and the waif, then proceed to kill them both since levi has to respond with the immediate threat of the dreamer, and cant focus on making that second waif he loves so very very much

Now however is much different, since they cant fly across the board turn 1, levi now gets some prep time and can prepare for the dreamer bomb.

Edited March 30, 2012 by CrouchingMoose

[Trevelyan]

Ah, thanks for the update.

[rancor709]

I'll ask this question of you. Do you like the idea of an ever growing plague? A master with thematic andlimited model selection of which you'll need multiples? If yes go hamin. If you like the idea of master who is designed to die and come back every turn? Who works with fantastic constructs and the unsdead and can kill a model a turn? Then id say leveticus. Both are fine masters, personally like levi more but my main faction is ressers and im expanding into arcanists.

[Kadeton]

Hamelin works great with a small selection of models - Nix, the Obedient Wretch, Stolen and Rats are all you need for a basic crew that works just fine... and while there are a few ways you can expand on this, his selection remains quite limited. Leveticus, on the other hand, can hire about half of all the models in the game, and this makes him very flexible (although the basic crew of Alyce, Waifs, SPAs and Canine Remains works okay as well - Levi honestly does most of the heavy lifting in his crew).

I just mention this because if you're more of a collector, Leveticus gives you more scope for collecting and painting models. If you're more of a competitive gamer, Hamelin gives you more raw power.

The only other consideration to take into account is that Hamelin is probably going to get re-balanced soon, so it's unpredictable how he will play in the future.

[Trevelyan]

I'm increasingly thinking I should just get both and save myself from the dilemma!

How much does a Hamelin crew grow as the game progresses? Would you reasonably expect to see multiple additional rats joining as enemy minions fall (presumably depending on the type of minion?). Other than the much touted ability to render target insignificant, what else does Hamelin bring to the table?

Similar questions for Leveticus. Can he easily start churning out new Steampunk Abominations, for example, or is he only likely to see one or two on a good day?

After playing with a fairly fixed size crew so far, the appeal of both of the above Outcasts is the idea that they can have larger and potentially increasing crews. The novel approaches to the card mechanic also interest me - do they add something extra in play (I enjoy quirky metagame tactics) or are they more of a frustrating gimick than something which adds to play?

[RebeccaJo]

The only other consideration to take into account is that Hamelin is probably going to get re-balanced soon, so it's unpredictable how he will play in the future.

If this actually happens, I can see a major change in how he is played coming up...

My hope is that it will only slightly alter the things that do need changed, not a full blown restructure.

[CrouchingMoose]

I'm increasingly thinking I should just get both and save myself from the dilemma!

How much does a Hamelin crew grow as the game progresses? Would you reasonably expect to see multiple additional rats joining as enemy minions fall (presumably depending on the type of minion?). Other than the much touted ability to render target insignificant, what else does Hamelin bring to the table?

Similar questions for Leveticus. Can he easily start churning out new Steampunk Abominations, for example, or is he only likely to see one or two on a good day?

After playing with a fairly fixed size crew so far, the appeal of both of the above Outcasts is the idea that they can have larger and potentially increasing crews. The novel approaches to the card mechanic also interest me - do they add something extra in play (I enjoy quirky metagame tactics) or are they more of a frustrating gimick than something which adds to play?

First off, I dont play Hamelin, but I see the appeal. Wyrd has pretty much said that Hamelin will be getting an errata soon, so keep in mind that he is going to change soon. It's believed that the changes to him will bring him more in line with other masters so he should still function the same with slightly toned down abilities.

With that out of the way, Hamelin uses a large pool of mminis, with few distinct models. This primarily comea from his rats, of which i gather you should have some where between 9 and 12 of. The main thing for rats will be that one will die and get replaced with another rat (usually the same mini for simiplicity). This horde of rats grows as your enemy dies near Hamelin or his ratcatchers, and tend to just get larger as the game progresses. Hamelin's selection of minis is a bit scattered across the factions and also doesnt give much in the way of naturally expanding intp new masters.

Leveticus, whom i do play, on the other hand ises a very large pool of minipns from all across the faction board. This lets him bring some very interesting combinations of minions as well as having some of the coolest minions geared torwards him to begin with. As for his abominations, i find that how you hire your crew can dictate how many you need. I havent really needed more than 6 my self but I have seen some people suggest as high as 8, although, this is usually for when people were thinking it was the best idea to start with the double desolation engine train which i havent seen anyone consider in a long time) if you dont take any to start and let them occur naturally, you shouldnt need more than 4-6. Also, another upside to Leveticus, since his hireing pool is so robust, it naturally lends itself into expanding into different masters and factions (I did the reverse of rancor, i went arcanist to resseructionist and got levi to fill in the gaps.)

Now, dont let any of these points discourage you from getting either master, play what you like. Just keep in mind the ups and downs of each master you look at picking up. (A lot if people feel hamelin is a negative play experience, for both players, but i fully intend to pick him up if the errata affects him like it did dreamer).

[Kadeton]

I'm increasingly thinking I should just get both and save myself from the dilemma!

Probably! That's always been my solution.

How much does a Hamelin crew grow as the game progresses? Would you reasonably expect to see multiple additional rats joining as enemy minions fall (presumably depending on the type of minion?). Other than the much touted ability to render target insignificant, what else does Hamelin bring to the table?

Your crew will most likely grow quite a bit... you seldom lose rats unless something goes wrong or you sacrifice them yourself (it's usually better to sacrifice a Stolen, but once you have enough rats you just don't care any more). My model pool has 6 Stolen and 12 rats, and that's been enough for me so far.

Similar questions for Leveticus. Can he easily start churning out new Steampunk Abominations, for example, or is he only likely to see one or two on a good day?

On a good day, you can turn the entire opposing crew into SPAs - Levi has lots of different ways to do it. I only have 4 of them, because generally if you have enough to turn them into a Desolation Engine then you usually might as well - they die very easily otherwise.

After playing with a fairly fixed size crew so far, the appeal of both of the above Outcasts is the idea that they can have larger and potentially increasing crews. The novel approaches to the card mechanic also interest me - do they add something extra in play (I enjoy quirky metagame tactics) or are they more of a frustrating gimick than something which adds to play?

Levi's card mechanic is usually pretty neat, because you usually control it. If you fail to kill off Levi on a turn when you have a bad hand, though, it's annoying.

Hamelin's mechanic is very powerful, because it forces your opponent to consider very carefully when to cheat. However, since your opponent has control over when you draw, a clever opponent will erode your hand and deny you any draws, which as you can imagine is very frustrating.

[CannonFodder]

I don't play either, but would lean to Levi

1. we are expecting an errata to Hamlin soon, at least wait a week so you don't buy something wrong.
   
2. Hamlin is 90% focused on his Crew, and little variation from list to list
   
3. Levi can take lots of models from different crews, this gives lots of diversity.
   

While Hamlin is stronger and I like the fluff/look and feel more, I would recommend Levi from a gameplay perspective. I don't like Levis Look in general, but strictly a gameplay/enjoyment perspective I would go for Levi.

[magicpockets]

My hope is that it will only slightly alter the things that do need changed, not a full blown restructure.

+1 as he doesn't need anything but a couple of tweaks to rebalance him, oh - and people need to earn to play against him *wink*

[Requirement]

I'm increasingly thinking I should just get both and save myself from the dilemma!

That's the spirit if you ask me!

Both are good masters will a little "gimmicky" playstyle that does actually add the the game in my opinion.

[Arcantix]

I do not know if $ is part of the decision but you can have virtually every model you need to run a versatile Hamelin crew for around 85 bucks shipped on certain markets that sell miniatures websites

I like Hamelin more than Levy, personally too.

[Trevelyan]

Thanks for the feedback everyone.

In the end the decision was made for me - I was only able to get Leveticus, so thought I would start there and pick up Hamelin when he is back in stock (and possibly when any errata is incorporated into the stat card).

I went for the boxed set, plus some spare Hollow Waifs, a Desolation Engine and Ashes & Dust.

How many Steampunk Abominations do people generally feel are necessary? They don't look as though they would survive much, but with Ashes & Dust, Rusty Alice and Leveticus himself all having the potential to produce more I'm concerned that I could end up with more than four on the table at once.

Obviously Leveticus can work with a lot of different minis. Are there any others that make particularly good choices for a crew?

[CrouchingMoose]

Any of the riders (levi is the only one who can take all 4) but dead rider espically,

Lazaurs,

Ss miner,

Bete noir,

Kill joy,

Jack daw,

Collidi and his marionettes,

Rotten belles,

Watchers,

Guardians,

Necro punks kinda

Basically most anything levi can take could be a decent option, but above are some of the better options

[graeme27uk]

I know his avatar benefits from each of the riders, however, I also understand that having all four riders when using non-avatar Leveticus isn't ideal. Also that the riders are expensive and become easy targets.

So does it really work to take all four?

How easy is it to manifest Leveticus avatar?

Is his avatar worth manifesting?

What is Lazarus like? What does he do that makes him good for Leve? I assume from the name that he has some way of coming back like most of Leve's specific minions.

Since Leve doesn't really do much for his team, I assume you want minions that can take care of themselves to a certain extent and don't rely on having synergy with their master.

[Scurry]

i wouldnt take all four in a game even when taking his avatar since he can summon one however i often take one or two (normally hooded and/or dead), levis avatar is fairly easy to manisfest, u have to die twice and summon 2 spa's using necrotic unmaking. i think it is only worth it in larger games where u can take 3 of the riders and other things as well since in a 35ss list 3 riders and the avatar is between 27 and 29ss so not much for anything else.

lazaraus is an anti guild construct (bonus to attacking non construct guild) who can gain abilities from other constructs with a 0 (either for the turn or for the game by discarding 2 scrap counters) he also has melee expert with a trigger to get blasts off the damage and a grenade launcher with blast damage. he also has armour +1 which cannot be ignored. the bonus in a levi list is that with so many constructs levi can take lazarus can get a lot of useful abilities (hard to wound, slow to die, use soulstone just to name a few).

generally i take a crew that can deal with the strategy i am playing, fast significant stuff for destroy the evidence, models with staying power for claim jump etc. while levi deals with taking out ur opponents important models with help from a few heavy hitters.

[magicpockets]

generally i take a crew that can deal with the strategy i am playing

And that ladies and gentlemen, is the best piece of Malifaux advice you'll ever be given

[Trevelyan]

And that ladies and gentlemen, is the best piece of Malifaux advice you'll ever be given

Seems like good advice to me.

And on that note I got to try out my new Leveticus crew last night in a small skirmish against Lucius. Very small. As the guy playing Lucius only has the boxed set and declined my offer of Perdita/Ortegas to enhance his crew we ended up playing a 25ss game.

My available Leveticus list consists of Rusty Alyce, Ashes & Dust, 2 x Canine Remains, 8 x Steampunk Abominations and Bete Noire (although she was drying so unavailable last night).

We flipped a shared recon strategy, so with the need for some significant models to secure control over the map, I opted to take Ashes & Dust (pretty resilient with the potential to become two significant models), 3 x SPA and 1 x Canine Remains (for the second waif), leaving me with 1ss in hand.

After a war of attrition, I was left with the Ashed Core, Dust Storm and a Desolation Engine facing off against the Lawyer with a turn in hand. As I controlled three corners of the board already, we called it a night with me winning (extra VPs from Twart). But it was a pretty close contest. Leveticus went down to some well timed use of Lucius' Sniper spell (targeting waifs in range of Lucius but out of his line of sight which happened to be in LoS of the Lawyer that I had largely ignored - my own fault, in other words). Ashes & Dust was worth it's weight in gold, attracting a lot of fire for one turn which killed A&D and took the Core down to 1 wound before it sacrificed Leveticus and healed 3 wounds on the flip to survive another activiation before the Dust Storm could reunite. The SPA were largely redundant, although their enhanced aura finished off the Guild Guard and put some pressure on Lucius himself before A&D finished him (creating the final SPA in the process).

My question to anyone familiar with Leveticus is really this - how does he cope with Strategies and Schemes that require multiple models to achieve, especially in low ss games? Are there some good choices that I can make to pad out my crew for similar situations, or should I just use a different crew and save Leveticus for higher ss games? Secondary to that, with the model selection I have, would it be better to drop A&D completely in low ss games and focus on Alyce and/or more SPAs?

[CRC]

Watchers

Collodi (16 points for 5 significant models)

Belles

Necropunks (kinda obsolete, because there are better choices)