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So what's the deal?


RebeccaJo
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At the risk of starting drama, I have a serious question. I have Hamelin's box and have been looking at his card and I can see where he's powerful. I've also read his combos in several tacticas. I must be missing something because I don't see where he's OP. I can see placcan that can be combatted by a lot of other crews.

So my question is, what makes Hamelin so broken?

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Oh boy, I'm gunna need a lot of popcorn for this thread...

I don't know too much and I know others will chime in, but I'll start by saying the thing that keeps me from taking him out of my case.

His zero action Fate is Meaningless allows him to ignore twists on fate for an entire action. So if you're targeting a model that's in cover with his Pipes, you ignore the :-fate to the strike. Also, even if you are only winning the duel by 3, you would then ignore the :-fate on damage, allowing you to cheat the damage. If you have an 11, 12, 13 or Red Joker, you could use it for damage, thus getting a free "Obey" on the model if it has Wp 5 or less. Now, that also means if you attack a model in melee you can pretty much hit them for 9 damage with a Black Staff strike. It totally breaks the core mechanics of the game.

If you really want to know more, I believe Magic Pockets has an in depth tactica on how to deal with him. It explains the things that make him down right nasty and what to watch out for.

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@Cornelious1424: I totally agree with the popcorn comment. I am looking for opinions only. I do not want people attacking each other whether they believe Hamelin needs an errata or not. I just want to know what people think.

That being said. I can see the cheating fate as fundamental disfunction. I wonder what is causing this to surface recently: if it's the inclusion of new minions or anything like that...

Makes me wish that I had either the cards or Book 2 on me (they're both with my boyfriend. Lol)

Thanks for the incite though. I look forward to what other people say. :]

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The meanest thing ist that he can make the Rats in 6 Incesh unkillable...

Not only that theyßll rise, if you kill em... they respawn and have another activation!

I played games with over 30 Activations in one Round... Horror for an opponent...

Also Hamelin has the Ability to make models Insignificant... For the Whole game...

If you want it, they can´t do nothing about it...

And so they do not count angainst sevreral winnig conditions, AND can not target your Master...

last but not least... Hamelin ist nearly unkillable... while you are able to hide alt least ONE stolen...

OKOK... he gets -4 CA... but that does not realy matter...

Enough reasons?

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Well, depending on the opposition that is :)

There are certain effects that can counter it (Dispel Magic, Shrug off, Eternally Shackled), however there are masters that just don't stand a single chance against him.

The thing with Hamelin is that he really can do all, and hasn't got any significant drawbacks.

He can make opponents Insignificant, he can deal horrendous amount of damage, he has very good survivability (due to Bully and Indiscriminate Void), he outactivates most masters (Som'er and Kirai might be able to beat him there)

And nonGuild crews with few models are usually unable to kill him somewhere around turn 3/4 (Guildcrews are however magnificent against him, high Wp, Dispelling effects, as is Leveticus, or Kirai with Hamelin and Nix on large SSnumbers)

Ophelia and Collodi cry the moment they see Hamelin on the table, as does nonfilth Pandora

His crew just won't stay dead, instead it usually just becomes larger.

but really, the Pipes with Fate Is Meaningless is the worst offender, when I play Hamelin I don't think I went a single turn in which I engaged the enemy without (0) Fate is Meaningless+ Pipes (trying to get a Mask in there for added insult, since it forces a Wp->Cb to avoid being Insignificant, where not even Immune To Influence will save you since it's a Attack Duel)

(not that I really care for that last, since I'm off the opinion that ItI is a very bad design move, maing things Immune to everything a couple of Masters (Zoraida and Molly for example) do, without ItI I don't even think Pandora would have needed The Box Opens, but that's an argument for an entirely different time which I will be happy to discuss further in PM if people are interested)

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oh boy.... :)

I'll resist the urge to hyper-post but will nudge you that Hamelin himself isn't that powerful (most masters have some sort of WTF trickery about them) - it's the way he interacts with his crew and their rules that makes him so powerful.

To give you a nudge, try combining Nix's Emptiness (which affects SS flips too) with Fate is Meaningless and Hamelin's melee attack - that's almost ANY minion in the game in one hit - usually without needing a soulstone to boost your score.

Or try turning a Terror Tot into a Mature Neph in two turns for FREE by getting blood counters from your own rats (which respawn when you kill them)

BUT! Take what comes up in this thread with a pinch of salt, there is a lot of Hamelin disinformation out there and a lot of people cry broken purely on what they've heard rather than seen. I will war you though, once you work him out he'll be a very NPE for both you and your opponent.

Search the forum as there's loads of posts on this, and if you have any specific questions just ask and someone will be able to help.

---------- Post added at 12:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:20 PM ----------

when I play Hamelin I don't think I went a single turn in which I engaged the enemy without (0) Fate is Meaningless+ Pipes

I don't think there's a single turn where I do that as it's so card relient (and only 3 wds) - just shows how different people can play! :)

Edited by magicpockets
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Thanks everyone. Rebecca and I were talking about this at length for a good portion of the weekend. We've looked through his cards, and checked the Tactica and i just couldn't see him being the huge issue people seem to say he is. I have to agree with MagicPockets that a big part of his issue is that people spread the bad word around. I also think MY confusion on the matter could stem from primarily playing guild, and it was pointed out that guild don't have quite as hard of a time against him.

So once i get my Ressers off the ground, i'll probably have a whole different out look... :P

thanks again for the help everyone. =]

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oh boy.... :)

I'll resist the urge to hyper-post but will nudge you that Hamelin himself isn't that powerful (most masters have some sort of WTF trickery about them) - it's the way he interacts with his crew and their rules that makes him so powerful.

I have to agree with this. I posted something along that lines on the Dreamer list thread because a heated debated had sparked over Kirai and that it was the master that needed fixing. I can see where people think that, but I guess I see it differently.

To give you a nudge, try combining Nix's Emptiness (which affects SS flips too) with Fate is Meaningless and Hamelin's melee attack - that's almost ANY minion in the game in one hit - usually without needing a soulstone to boost your score.

Or try turning a Terror Tot into a Mature Neph in two turns for FREE by getting blood counters from your own rats (which respawn when you kill them)

Those seem to be some dirty tricks. I guess there is a difference between just reading the cards and actually playing him, because I would have never found those combos. Not that I'm going to use them, it is just nice to see what people are saying that makes him "broken."

BUT! Take what comes up in this thread with a pinch of salt, there is a lot of Hamelin disinformation out there and a lot of people cry broken purely on what they've heard rather than seen. I will war you though, once you work him out he'll be a very NPE for both you and your opponent.

I will be sure to do that. Once I get back home with Jeremy this weekend, we will probably be looking over the cards and book again to see what all is feasible, and what things we never realized. For me, it'll be a lot of seeing specific examples if I start playing him. Sadly though, if they errata him, I don't think I'll put him up on my list of crews to get done. I'm not saying that I'll play a filth list, I'm actually quite against it, but I don't want to have to deal with outdated cards and new rulings. The bury errata has changed things enough, in a good way, but have made relearning bury a little frustrating... lol... but maybe I'm just slow.

Search the forum as there's loads of posts on this, and if you have any specific questions just ask and someone will be able to help.

If I do decide to paint him and start playing, I will definitely be doing a lot more searching. I would say that, down the road, I'll probably be asking you for some help. lol

:)

Thanks again MagicPockets!

---------- Post added at 10:16 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:09 AM ----------

Well, depending on the opposition that is :)

There are certain effects that can counter it (Dispel Magic, Shrug off, Eternally Shackled), however there are masters that just don't stand a single chance against him.

I've had that with a lot of masters it seems... there are some crews I just don't like to play against out of either personal reasons or I just don't know how to counteract them yet (i.e. me playing the Viks against Jeremy playing Marcus... he ended my 7 win streak with that and I don't know what I did differently with the Viks that warranted such a massive loss)

The thing with Hamelin is that he really can do all, and hasn't got any significant drawbacks.

He can make opponents Insignificant, he can deal horrendous amount of damage, he has very good survivability (due to Bully and Indiscriminate Void), he outactivates most masters (Som'er and Kirai might be able to beat him there)

It just may be my lack of remembering well (like I said, I don't have the cards or Book 2 on me) but is it Hamelin that causes Insignificant or the rats? If it is Hamelin, what allows him to do that?

And nonGuild crews with few models are usually unable to kill him somewhere around turn 3/4 (Guildcrews are however magnificent against him, high Wp, Dispelling effects, as is Leveticus, or Kirai with Hamelin and Nix on large SSnumbers)

The Guild part could be bad news for me and good news for Jeremy... he plays guild crews... lol

His crew just won't stay dead, instead it usually just becomes larger.

That reminds me of Nicodems avatar... how Mindless Zombies essentially cannot die.

but really, the Pipes with Fate Is Meaningless is the worst offender, when I play Hamelin I don't think I went a single turn in which I engaged the enemy without (0) Fate is Meaningless+ Pipes (trying to get a Mask in there for added insult, since it forces a Wp->Cb to avoid being Insignificant, where not even Immune To Influence will save you since it's a Attack Duel)

What exactly do those do?

Thanks Adandhel!

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It just may be my lack of remembering well (like I said, I don't have the cards or Book 2 on me) but is it Hamelin that causes Insignificant or the rats? If it is Hamelin, what allows him to do that?

The rats have a spell, resisted on defense, that makes people Insignificant until the beginning of the next turn. The Stolen can make people Insignificant permanently unless the controller discards 2 cards. Hamelin has a spell, resisted on willpower, that makes people Insignificant permanently, in addition to which he has a trigger on his Pipes (ranged attack) that make people Insignificant unless they can beat his attack total with a Wp flip (Immune to Influence does not matter). Hamelin's totems can use his insignificant spell too.

Fate is meaningless lets him ignore any positive or negative flip during his next action. Combined with the Pipes, you have a good chance of getting the trigger with a high enough score that your opponent can't beat it.

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I will second MagicPockets in saying that what annoys me the most is the negative play experience he provides to both the player that is playing him and the opponent.

The endless cycles of rats activating, being killed, respawing, activating again, looooooooop that... is painful. The master itself is a very powerful model, but the interactions with the crew are the things that make me not want to play him or against him.

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The endless cycles of rats activating, being killed, respawing, activating again, looooooooop that... is painful. The master itself is a very powerful model, but the interactions with the crew are the things that make me not want to play him or against him.

I can see that being terribly annoying... all the rats coming back... having to reactivate them. It's a wonder that people get done with a 6 turn game in an hour... especially playing Hamelin. That woudl be a headache and a half. :/

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Well Magicpockets, the main thing is not the 3 Wds, the main things are A the free obey, and B the high chance on making the opponent insignificant, when having a mask there, the 3 wounds really are but a bonus for getting off both Obedience and Understand the Soulless without having to sacrifice anything in my mind :), and since (0) Useless Toy most of the time is a worse choice, I quite like my pipes. It also gets around ItI which is a huge advantage when one of the strongest players around knows just how to break the Hoff

On the other hand, I still try to make a The Stolen every turn as well, both for extra survivability, as for saccing fuel/distraction, so yeah, different styles I guess, I see the pipes as a very very good control tool, with a little added damage (having papa loco charge a stalker next to perdita with another severe card in hand gives interesting results, as does charging a Witchling Stalker on Sonnia, when later I asked him why his Stalkers were so far away from Sonnia his answer was: 'that's not a coincidence' (though he is imho one of the coolest guy tos play against around here))

but yeah, Magicpockets most certainly has a point in that the combo of how Hamelin works with his crew is the worst part, the neverending rats, the number of stolen to outactivate, give summoningfuel and just plain make Hamelin unkillable.

All in all, what I consider the worst is that normal means just don't get rid of the damn buggers, cause only the Obedient Wretch and Nix really stay dead for long :)

---------- Post added at 02:08 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:58 AM ----------

RebecccaJo,

Hamelin himself has 2 ways

Understand the Soulless, is a spell, requiring a Sacrifice, with Wpresist to make the target insignificant.

his Pipes, which are a Cb7 mask Rg 10 1/3/3* Weapon, which on a Severe gives you a free Obedience if the nonMaster target has Wp5 or lower, and a trigger on dual mask, which forces models damaged to make a Wp-> Cb duel or become insignificant.

Both of these are permanent

Rats have a spell that can do it, but only till end closing phase

The Stolen have an all action, which sacrifices them, forcing an opponent to either discard 2 cards or become Insignificant for the rest of the game.

While Insignificant, models may not target Hamelin for any reason, and Hamelin can either make them utterly useless, or just lure them and damage all of them, in addition to them no longer being efficient with their schemes and probably strategies.

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Completely agree with Magicpockets assessment of Hamelin, though the Rat Catchers also have a lot of potential to really annoy as well (it isn't difficult to make them nearly impervious to melee attack).

Additionally, when playing against Hamelin you generally have to hire and play specifically to counter him (and even then it isn't exactly a cake walk).

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Well, the Stolen Wp debuff hurts, and a couple of metafactors, for example, people playing starterbox minions, while Dora herself is the only thing that can harm Hamelin.

Pandora's Emotional Trauma on Expose Fears vs the ratswarm actually hurts her since the rats just come back to strike again, and sooner or later, you will fail your EFduel.

Pandora has as far as I'm aware no methods to get rid of effects (bar manifesting, which gives you the avantage of having Significant Sorrows regardless what Hamelin does against them)

And dora's speciality of dealing with a few heavy hitters very well doesn't really stack all that wel vs the swarm and the soulless

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