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Not that differently for me. That's the short answer. :)

He still a master focused on movement and placement. He now cannot move and drop his bomb or fire off the chompy-missile with impunity...but he still has versions of these tricks and, although they take more planning to make them effective, they still do the same job.

I had to give up models to achieve my goals too, and really play the schemes/strategy from deployment. Now that the crew matters, getting it right for the job is more important.

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I would pretty much put it to you this way:

Lelu does more dmg then Teddy.

Lelu is faster than Teddy. (has Melee expert vs. Flurry)

Lelu is 2 SS cheaper than Teddy.

I hear you, but...

Lelu kinda has to be taken with lilitu, so you could argue that the pair are 5 stones more.

If 2 sided does work as suspected, teddy may be faster with the Dreamer, as he can dump teddy in range to attack.

Teddy is more resilient (not taking into account same malignant force, of course).

If Teddy dies, he doesn't by default kill another model.

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Chefs Dad, let me preface this by saying this comment is not directed at you personally in any way.

I think your comment, that because Lilitu really needs to be taken with Lelu that its effectively a 14 point model, and therefore more expensive than Teddy, is deeply flawed. It is a comment I hear bandied about alot and it really grates on my nerves because, it is in my opinion, utter nonsense. Lelu is a 7 point Combat model, Lilitu is a 7 point Control and support model, and together they provide more, and better support to each other than any other combination of minions I can think of in the entire game. The argument is only valid if you were planning to bring absolutely no support at all into the game. It would be like a Seamus player arguing that really a Belle and a Punk zombie were a 9 point model, and therefore because of it Sebastian really does the better job as a Melee model.

Lelu and Lilitu are just so amazing together it defies words, and for 21 SS, three more than would be required to bring 2 Teddies with no support model, you could have 2 Lelu and 1 Lilitu.

Teddy is also, in my experience, Way less resilient than Lelu, as Lelu gets the nifty healing combo with Lilitu, has Regeneration 2, I'm pretty certain has a higher Def (books are not available to me at the moment), and can heal through Drink Blood.

Teddy has H2W2, which is not a survival trait, it is a bad thing because most hits in the game are going to only do weak dmg anyway, if you have a h2w2 model all you want to do is hit him as many times as possible to increase odds of flipping the red joker. It is no coincidence that Seamus, on average, dies every other game played with him, and the one NB model I've NEVER failed to kill rather easily is Teddy.

Please don't get me wrong, Teddy is a very fun, very characterful, iconic Malifaux Model, but he really can't be compared to the current generation of NB models available.

I do think, however, that a three Teddy Dreamer list, while not really very effective, would be a total blast to play!

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I think your comment, that because Lilitu really needs to be taken with Lelu that its effectively a 14 point model, and therefore more expensive than Teddy, is deeply flawed. It is a comment I hear bandied about alot and it really grates on my nerves because, it is in my opinion, utter nonsense. Lelu is a 7 point Combat model, Lilitu is a 7 point Control and support model, and together they provide more, and better support to each other than any other combination of minions I can think of in the entire game. The argument is only valid if you were planning to bring absolutely no support at all into the game. It would be like a Seamus player arguing that really a Belle and a Punk zombie were a 9 point model, and therefore because of it Sebastian really does the better job as a Melee model.

Lelu and Lilitu are just so amazing together it defies words, and for 21 SS, three more than would be required to bring 2 Teddies with no support model, you could have 2 Lelu and 1 Lilitu.

Teddy is also, in my experience, Way less resilient than Lelu, as Lelu gets the nifty healing combo with Lilitu, has Regeneration 2, I'm pretty certain has a higher Def (books are not available to me at the moment), and can heal through Drink Blood.

Teddy has H2W2, which is not a survival trait, it is a bad thing because most hits in the game are going to only do weak dmg anyway, if you have a h2w2 model all you want to do is hit him as many times as possible to increase odds of flipping the red joker. It is no coincidence that Seamus, on average, dies every other game played with him, and the one NB model I've NEVER failed to kill rather easily is Teddy.

Please don't get me wrong, Teddy is a very fun, very characterful, iconic Malifaux Model, but he really can't be compared to the current generation of NB models available.

I do think, however, that a three Teddy Dreamer list, while not really very effective, would be a total blast to play!

Taking Lelu and Lillitu together is not nonsense, because you have to take them together or the other one will die by turn three. Comparing them to a Bell and Punk is not valid because they could still survive without the other one.

I agree with everything about Teddy.

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Incorrect, only Lelu will die that Fast, Lilitu can keep healing herself for 2 every end turn, effectively limiting the bleeding to 1. Also you miss my point, of course you are going to take Lelu and Lilitu together, but pricing them as a 14 point model vs Teddy's nine only makes sense if you were not planning to bring any support model. Otherwise you are taking Lelu for combat vs teddy for combat, and Lelu is cheaper.

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In all fairness, I totally agree that people finding the nasty combos are very smart folks. I think this will happen again with Dreamer, because he has so many interesting options available. This is unlike some Masters who don't have nearly as much potential for these combos because what they do is straightforward.

If you ever played magic the gathering, its very similar. You knew when you saw a card with a good paragraph of tiny text that no one could figure out, someone was probably going to come up with something filthy with it. I already stated that I believe Dreamer will be in the top Tier masters even with this errata, it just will not be so alpha-strike.

I think good players who like winning gravitate towards models who have this sort of hidden potential.

---------- Post added at 08:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:07 PM ----------

To add further from a rezzer player perspective, the amount of crazy options on Kirai's card are similar. Combine this with the fact that other models she interacts with also have interesting options, and the emergent combos grow.

Dreamer has so many awesome models he can use, that there is no way he won't stay on top. We haven't even seen many of the models in action in Dreamer crews because Chompy himself was so good, so no one even had to really break anything else. But just looking at the power of the twins and stitched and Night Terrors (really...?) and so many other good options, dreamer crews are going to be fantastic, and should be varied as well.

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Incorrect, only Lelu will die that Fast, Lilitu can keep healing herself for 2 every end turn, effectively limiting the bleeding to 1. Also you miss my point, of course you are going to take Lelu and Lilitu together, but pricing them as a 14 point model vs Teddy's nine only makes sense if you were not planning to bring any support model. Otherwise you are taking Lelu for combat vs teddy for combat, and Lelu is cheaper.

So basically you're saying the same thing... both saying Lelu is better than Teddy... Yes, Lelu HIMSELF may be cheaper.. but in all seriousness how often do you take him alone? how often can you afford to lose him by turn three? he is not a valid choice without her, so yes, i think it is fair to roll her cost into his. Sure, you could argue semantics that she's support... but still... you're dishing out the stones for her...

look at it this way... would you take the pair in a 25 ss game? i doubt it... unless you had a very specific role for them... but then you're left with a mere 11 pts for everything else. :/

Now, that said, I want to like Teddy... but he's become obsolete in my opinion... there are better models out there now.. and although he is awesome and adorable... he just becomes everyone's punching bag and is dead before you have a chance to use him.

last but certainly not least... Lillitu has no healing abilities for herself, only for friendly Neverborn within 2"... Lelu has regenerate 2 and (0) Drink Blood i think you might have them backwards.

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I absolutely would take them in a 25 SS game. A beastly combat model, and an awesome control and support model for 7 stones each... that's a steal. What else do i need to bring, sub par models just so I can have more models? I don't need more models if Lelu, Lilitu, and my master eat you alive. I'd take 2 lilitu and a Lelu, and a Primordial Magic for Pandora at 25 SS and still have 7 stones in my cache. I think that would be a very solid 25 SS list.

You can only compare Teddy vs Lelu cost structure effectively if you are bringing some other sort of support model with Teddy. If you are bringing one it can't cost more that 5 SS of you are just breaking even with a lilitu and Lelu combo, and I'd be willing to wager the Lelu/Lilitu combination functions stronger than the Teddy/??? combo does.

And as for the Lelu healing, anytime Lilitu heals anything other than Lelu, Lelu heals as well. So at the end of the turn Lilitu can heal herself, and Lelu, no matter where he is, will heal the same amount. The same thing happens to lilitu when Lelu regenerates. It is one of the reasons they are so resilient.

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I absolutely would take them in a 25 SS game. A beastly combat model, and an awesome control and support model for 7 stones each... that's a steal. What else do i need to bring, sub par models just so I can have more models? I don't need more models if Lelu, Lilitu, and my master eat you alive. I'd take 2 lilitu and a Lelu, and a Primordial Magic for Pandora at 25 SS and still have 7 stones in my cache. I think that would be a very solid 25 SS list.

Depends on the Strategy though doesn't it. They are good but running a 4 man crew can be very risky. It doesn't leave much room for mistake.

At 25 stones I think you are better of using things like Stiched. Not quite the bunch of a twins but you get more of them for the price which means Strats and Schemes are generally easier to pull off.

---------- Post added at 09:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:33 PM ----------

I doubt lelu and lilitu will escape being errated, as they seem to be an auto include in every neverborn list regardless of master or stratergy. So teddy might not look so bad in a while.

I know the Bury and Dreamer errata were a big deal and we have been promised Hamelin next. But I think people are starting to get there hopes a little high if they expect a massive errata of a lot of models. Personally I bet we get Hamelin and then we are done for a while. The rest of the game has some powerful models but nothing game breaking and I think it can stand to stay as it is for right now.

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I know the Bury and Dreamer errata were a big deal and we have been promised Hamelin next.

Please Wyrd no!

I know Sketch said that he was on the table, but sometimes you are just examining when someone is on the table. I certainly hope that haven't promised a Hamelin errata.

I'm not saying he's not broken. I'm not saying he couldn't be improved. I'm saying that I have not yet had anyone convince me with any amount of reasoning. Even magicpockets, who is the most visible Hamelin player, has said: http://www.wyrd-games.net/showthread.php?30078-What-s-on-the-autopsy-table&p=383472&viewfull=1#post383472

I think the current information that exists on how Hamelin plays and the problems that exist with him is not even in the same realm as the information that existed on LCB. There was clear and prevalent information that existed on problems with the Dreamer. I would argue that with Hamelin, it is unclear and prevalent. Let's get clarity to the problem before we take in the scalpel again.

Too much errata is a bad thing.

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While I agree that too much errata is a bad thing, massive negative play experiences are exceptionally bad for new players, and are equally, if not more, destructive to a game then slowly measured out Errata. Rising Powers released in August of 2010, and it was more than a year really before any major changes of Errata were handed down in the Nekima/Alp Errata. Sure there were other changes before then, but those were, I think, the first major changes.

I'm not taking sides in this issue as all I have is second hand information as I've played against Hamelin exactly once, played by an opponent who was playing his first game with him. I will say he has an example of what I consider a "broken" mechanic, in that Bully allows no interaction or possibility, no matter how remote, for an opponent to overcome. To me it's like if Pandora could just cast a resistless spell on you and claim her "you run trigger" at the same time. That said I will leave it to people who have played Hamelin, and have more experience with him to propose and evaluate any suggested changes.

I will say that if an experienced player beats a newbie into the ground with Lady J, or Seamus, or Ramos it is less of a negative play experience than what I'd imagine a stomping by Hamelin would feel like. From my own perspective, while not wanting every master to be the same, this inherent quality, of a NPE, seems built into Hamelin, and should at some point be addressed.

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But I think people are starting to get there hopes a little high if they expect a massive errata of a lot of models. Personally I bet we get Hamelin and then we are done for a while. The rest of the game has some powerful models but nothing game breaking and I think it can stand to stay as it is for right now.

Edited by bigbopper
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If you think Hamelin doesn't need errata'ing, I'll take a bag of whatever you most recently smoked.

Same with Lelu.

Lilitu, whilst not as obviously explosive as Lelu, is also pretty damn strong for 7 points. Other factions would kill for minions like her.

Simple fact is that Lelu and Lilitu were costed as a pair, with the logic being that they had to be taken as a two and hence were pseudo more expensive. Unfortunately that logic doesn't make any sense, so you get about 17 stones (Lelu 9, Lilitu 8, by my reckoning) of models for 14 points. And this just gets worse when you run 2 Lelus.

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If you think Hamelin doesn't need errata'ing, I'll take a bag of whatever you most recently smoked.

Excellent argument. If only we all knew as much as you, then we wouldn't make these petty requests for "reasons" and "examples." Speaking as a stupid (where stupid is clearly defined as someone who disagrees with you) person, I apologize on behalf of all of us. Thank you for setting us straight. I only hope I can argue like you in the future...

...oh wait, this post is an example of arguing like you! Attacking the person, not the argument? Check. Condescension? Check. Lack of real information? Check.

Step off your high horse. You're a smart guy and a good Malifaux player. A lot of people listen to you. Make some points and arguments. Use your powers for good rather than evil.

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Listen people, I would hate to close this thread, so play nice. There have been some interesting posts here.

Please do not Attack each other. There really is no need for it. There are a lots of different people playing Malifaux and they will all come from different backgrounds and play in different ways.

For example I have never had any issue dealing with Lelu and Lilitu when playing against Non-Dreamer lists, they seem solid for 7ss, but probably not too over the top as if you can kill one of them the second dies really easily.

If you don't agree with what someone says, then by all means feel free to disagree, but there is no reason that you need to attack them personally.

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Yeah she will only be losing 1Wd a turn.. but that's much better than her healing up to 2Wds a turn. It's still a 3Wd swing for the worse for her.

I am looking at book two right now, and Lillitu doesn't have any healing. Lelu has (0)Drink Blood that does damage 2/3/6 and he heals the amount of wounds he inflicts. and Regeneration 2. Lelu also has Thoughts Twisted which deals 2 Wds to target non-neverborn within 2". Lillitu has Twisted Thoughts which states (in Book 2) "Target friendly Neverborn model within 2" of this model heals 2Wd in the Resolve Effects Stage." I have been under the position that by stating "Target" it does not allow her to target herself.

They both do take 3 Wds during the Resolve Effects Step if the other is not in play. They only way I can see (by the book) Lillitu healing is if Lelu is healed from any source other than her... but does that include regenerate?

I don't have their cards next to me, but I am positive that they are verbatim from the book...

I'm really confused... :/

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I am looking at book two right now, and Lillitu doesn't have any healing. Lelu has (0)Drink Blood that does damage 2/3/6 and he heals the amount of wounds he inflicts. and Regeneration 2. Lelu also has Thoughts Twisted which deals 2 Wds to target non-neverborn within 2". Lillitu has Twisted Thoughts which states (in Book 2) "Target friendly Neverborn model within 2" of this model heals 2Wd in the Resolve Effects Stage." I have been under the position that by stating "Target" it does not allow her to target herself.

They both do take 3 Wds during the Resolve Effects Step if the other is not in play. They only way I can see (by the book) Lillitu healing is if Lelu is healed from any source other than her... but does that include regenerate?

I don't have their cards next to me, but I am positive that they are verbatim from the book...

I'm really confused... :/

Underline is mine.

"target" allows you to select yourself as the target (ie recipient)... it's not an attack and there for, there is no reason you can not target yourself (ie Lilitu) with your own Twisted Thoughts. Been this way from the beginning :)

I think your confusing it a bit with attacks and how you can't attack yourself ... but Twisted Thoughts isn't an attack, so won't stop it.

Edited by karn987
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