mattbird Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 I'm not sure how much "flexibility" you really give up by losing daydreams- dreamer can still pop out nightmares wherever he wants. having an extra card in hand also provides flexibility of a different kind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schristofersen Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 *one list contained in this post was a joke Your sense of humor is starting to grow on me. But seriously... I see some ridiculousness still exists with daydreams/dreamer/LCB but I agree with the idea that ridiculously powerful (read soon to get the cuddle beat down, previously known as broken) minis are way more useful than daydreams right now. I'm pretty excited to pick up the dreamer again... although i'm Levi has had my attention more recently. The funny thing about daydreams is that you don't even care if you manage to get your trigger off with chompy now if you do his little mini jump into combat as you just compainion the dreamer with them and jaunt up to punch a mini in the face and then say "TA!" as the daydreams drag him back out of range and turn him back into the dreamer in your little stitched triangle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marshimartian Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 Nope that was a typo by Kel. Go check out thepost again and notice the edit at the bottom: The Action/ability that buries the model would have to stipulate that now. Didn't think to check the eratta to the eratta, what a rookie mistake... oh wel... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poulpox Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 I'll be sticking with the Daydreams personally 2 or 3 of them as usual. I never liked having to rely on the tome to get the All Done trigger. LCB's strikes have to be optimised with his damaging triggers to make him worth it, and not turning back into Dreamer is not an option. If you indeed prefer certainties in play, using the Daydreams is far more certain than All Done trigger to pull out of melee. But that's just me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucidicide Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 I think it must be personal preference. Raw power and flexibility are just two different styles. Some people just play better using different tactics - there are no cookie cutters here. If raw power and card dominance were the best all the time, then Rasputina should be a "Tier 1" master. If flexibility were the best all the time, then Marcus should be a "Tier 1" master. (Funny that the one's that sprang to mind were both arcanist.) Excellent point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calmdown Posted March 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 +1 for Primordial Magic being key. Especially with Stitched Together on the board. You just became my favourite poster. ---------- Post added at 01:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:51 PM ---------- If raw power and card dominance were the best all the time, then Rasputina should be a "Tier 1" master. If flexibility were the best all the time, then Marcus should be a "Tier 1" master. (Funny that the one's that sprang to mind were both arcanist.) Not quite. Raw power is only useful if you can bring it to bear. The point here is, that the Dreamer can already bring his power to bear because he can fly, drop Chompy, drop Nightmare, etc all by himself. There is diminishing returns to having multiple models that do the same thing, and when you lose Arcane Reservoir for the privilege, it starts to become a bad option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucidicide Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 The point here is, that the Dreamer can already bring his power to bear because he can fly, drop Chompy, drop Nightmare, etc all by himself. There is diminishing returns to having multiple models that do the same thing, and when you lose Arcane Reservoir for the privilege, it starts to become a bad option. I don't think there's any reason we all have to agree here, but don't you see why the reason you just mentioned is a reason you NEVER should have played with him with Daydreams? Before this errata, he could already bring his power to bear and was even better at doing it. The Daydreams adding to this functionality was just diminishing returns, and you lost Arcane Reservoir for the privilege. The same argument can be levied against the way you used to play the Dreamer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattbird Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 I don't think there's any reason we all have to agree here, but don't you see why the reason you just mentioned is a reason you NEVER should have played with him with Daydreams? Before this errata, he could already bring his power to bear and was even better at doing it. The Daydreams adding to this functionality was just diminishing returns, and you lost Arcane Reservoir for the privilege. The same argument can be levied against the way you used to play the Dreamer. Not quite. The every turn, all-game-long, Daydream-powered slingshot was full proof, with almost no risk or downside. The errata completely nullifies that tactic. Once you are no longer trying to pull Chompy in and out of combat into total safety every turn, the Daydreams become far less useful. I'm not saying they are *never* useful, but there is a distinct advantage to having extra cards or other hand manipulation abilities. Chompy and crew are almost always good enough to eat the opponent's crew if they get to melee untouched- that part is unchanged. It's just that before, the Daydreams boomerang thing removed almost all risk on your part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucidicide Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 If the argument is that raw power wins games over flexibility, then Rasputina should be a great Master. If the argument is that raw power wins games over flexibility once you are able to bring that raw power to bear, then Dreamer should never have been played with Daydreams. After all, even without them he had the ability to bring his power to bear. If the argument is that being able to hit any model almost anywhere on table, kill it, and have virtually no fear of reprisal wins games, ...duh. - The argument here shouldn't be about an extra card vs flexibility and which is better. That argument will run around all day long. The argument should be about whether the Dreamer, given the current errata, is better with an extra card or with increased flexibility. Many people seem to see each side in this. If you feel the Dreamer still holds enough flexibility, then bring the Primordial Magic. If you feel the Dreamer still holds enough raw power, then bring the Daydreams. It's all a balancing act for what your crew can do and what it needs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozz Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 I see both sides in this, and look forward to using the primordial magic with someone, but for me, having multiples of the daydreams, covering areas the dreamer isnt, making my opponent worry about weather LCB/another nightmare/lots of nightmares & LCB are going to appear all over the board still is in my mind currently more use than 1 card. But time will tell i guess Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rathnard Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 I think a couple of comments Rath - "+1 card and thats it" and "+1 card isnt going to help with that" show that you don't value cards in hand particularly. Far from it - having more cards on hand is a great advantage to have in-game. But as others have said, the game is not so simplistic that you can always say "more cards is always better". Otherwise we'd see Rasputina crews dominating and Kirai players using the PM at every opportunity, for instance. What this boils down to is whether each of us thinks that the extra tactical options in-game that the Daydream offers is better or worse than +1 card from a Primordial Magic. People don't need to have a worse understanding of the game than you do to disagree with you Calmdown - players like myself are just placing more value in Daydreams than you yourself think they now warrant. Honestly, I'm glad you want to try out the PM with Dreamer. Even if I disagree with you, it still provides me with a perspective on using the Dreamer that I wouldn't have otherwise rated, which is only a good thing. Kind of like a Colette player foregoing showgirls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChefsDad Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 Primordial Magic is ugly. Daydreams are sexy. That's my argument. On a serious note, I like the daydreams. Love the flexibility. The ability to put different elements of the Crew in different places is awesome IMO. If you take the PM you gain a card but lose the flexibility of DD. If you take the DD you gain flexibility but don't actually lose anything vs other crews (except with Daw, rasputina, or a librarian). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joel Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 I'll be working from a base of: Dreamer 8ss 2 daydreams 2 stitched 2 teddy And swapping things in and out of that depending on encounter. I need to keep things simple until I unlearn the dreamer....then relearn as I go. I've decided to go with 8 soulstones rather than the 3rd daydream figuring that having the flexibility to use the stones or summon a daydream so I can terminate them for chompy is better than simply committing to the daydream when hiring the crew. I'll see how I go against Ramos tomorrow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rathnard Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 Primordial Magic is ugly. Daydreams are sexy. That's my argument. Nonsense. I love my Vomit Worm! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nilus Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 Nonsense. I love my Vomit Worm! Dammit its not the vomit worm....Its Shai-HuSpew. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CN the Logos Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 Dammit its not the vomit worm....Its Shai-HuSpew. I prefer "Sexy Mana Worm" myself. The debate over whether Arcane Reservoir is worth the loss of the Daydreams' other abilities is interesting. No one's arguing that card advantage is not a good thing, I think. The question is whether the Daydream offers enough utility to make up for not drawing an extra card. If Two Sided does harm the Twins while they're buried (unless you've got another one of each in play), then having a Daydream or two to give you another way to move them into position could be useful. And they can be used as a panic button, removing Chompy from the fight after he triggers All Done, albeit at the cost of a Daydream. Those could be excellent options to have in the right situation. On the other hand, Arcane Reservoir is always good. I'm not sure this can be cleanly Theoryfauxed out. We may see a clear difference in actual tournaments, or it may come down to playstyle preferences. And whether you prefer your totem to be a many fanged, magic-spewing phallus worm or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuR_wwxG5lI. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravenborne Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 This is awesome. All you Dreamer players are going to have to figure out how to play Malifaux like the rest of us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joel Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 I already was! now I have to do it all over again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karn987 Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 First run at the Errata Walkthrough Section is up on Pull My Finger: http://pullmyfinger.wikispaces.com/DreamerErrataWalkthrough Remember, this is a first run through of it so it's not 100% complete and I'm sure there will be some things to add/change/remove from it. Post a discussion if you find something such as this and we'll have a look at it asap! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RebeccaJo Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 (edited) This is awesome. All you Dreamer players are going to have to figure out how to play Malifaux like the rest of us. I don't think it's a learning how to play, just how to find a new tactic that makes everyone scream broken again. p.s. I picked up the Dreamer a little while back but refused to play filth lists... So it's not all Dreamer players... EDIT: I think the people who find the "filth" lists are geniuses... They are so tactically sound that they can think of combos like that, that are completely legal. The tactic may be OP, but the fact that they found that is quite impressive. That being said... the Dreamer did need the Errata... now people will be coming up with really cool combos that involve a wide range of models. I'm excited to see what comes out of this. Edited March 23, 2012 by RebeccaJo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jewomie Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 I'm probably sounding like a broken record here, but i have to agree with Rebecca... The guys who make filth lists are insane. The ability to see all the outcomes of a spell or ability, and be able to build a crew that exploits it... well, that is impressive, and it wont go away because they fixed something... now, i'm not saying it didn't need fixed... i'm just saying, as long as those folk are around, no crew is safe from being the new community Pariah... On topic, i think the sexy mana worm is pretty good... certainly better than the poltergeist and cherub... but i think there is still so much synergy left with the daydreams that i would be hesitant to stop taking them... depending on crew build, i can see times when it would be a good call to take the card instead of the "portals" (loved the dark eldar reference, figured i'd res it.) I don't think there is a right or wrong totem in this case... just don't take the malifaux child and i'm sure you'll be alright... Though, I am suprised you would be so quick to pre build lists after all the talk on the resser page about how you should NEVER do that in this game... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CN the Logos Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 This is awesome. All you Dreamer players are going to have to figure out how to play Malifaux like the rest of us. Sorry, I'd have replied earlier, but I was busy painting my own Night Terrors to use alongside the Twins and Stitched Togethers. ...In all seriousness, I mostly play Lilith and Zoraida, and picked up the Dreamer to have a more competitive Master for tournaments in which other Tier One crews were going around. I don't think it's a learning how to play, just how to find a new tactic that makes everyone scream broken again. Oh yeah, I'm pretty sure he's still one of the best Masters. He just lets your opponent actually respond to the madness now. Which makes for a better game. EDIT: I think the people who find the "filth" lists are geniuses... They are so tactically sound that they can think of combos like that, that are completely legal. The tactic may be OP, but the fact that they found that is quite impressive. That being said... the Dreamer did need the Errata... now people will be coming up with really cool combos that involve a wide range of models. I'm excited to see what comes out of this. I'm probably sounding like a broken record here, but i have to agree with Rebecca... The guys who make filth lists are insane. The ability to see all the outcomes of a spell or ability, and be able to build a crew that exploits it... well, that is impressive, and it wont go away because they fixed something... now, i'm not saying it didn't need fixed... i'm just saying, as long as those folk are around, no crew is safe from being the new community Pariah... Oh yes. Every good game needs a number of people who enjoy it enough to break it. Ideally, those people make it into playtesting, or better yet are hired to help design the game, and save the rest of us the trouble of needing errata in the first place. I don't think there is a right or wrong totem in this case... just don't take the malifaux child and i'm sure you'll be alright... Though, I am suprised you would be so quick to pre build lists after all the talk on the resser page about how you should NEVER do that in this game... Eh, I like to go in with a basic framework for my crew just so that my friendly opponents don't have to wait an hour for me to pick everything out from the ground up. I'm an indecisive person. Of course it's tailored to the schemes, but I feel it helps to have an idea of what to use for a particular situation before it's actually flipped for my strategy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jewomie Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 Eh, I like to go in with a basic framework for my crew just so that my friendly opponents don't have to wait an hour for me to pick everything out from the ground up. I'm an indecisive person. Of course it's tailored to the schemes, but I feel it helps to have an idea of what to use for a particular situation before it's actually flipped for my strategy. I probably should mention.. that last bit in my post was directed at Calmdown more than anyone else on here. Sorry for the confusion. i should have been more clear. i didn't mean to look like a jerk. :/ What you do is pretty much what i do. i have ideas in mind for who i'd take depending on strats and such, but definitive lists i've found are just not trustworthy enough. I only brought it up because more than once Calmdown has told me not to pre-chose my lists, then i saw this post. :3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CN the Logos Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 I probably should mention.. that last bit in my post was directed at Calmdown more than anyone else on here. Sorry for the confusion. i should have been more clear. i didn't mean to look like a jerk. :/ What you do is pretty much what i do. i have ideas in mind for who i'd take depending on strats and such, but definitive lists i've found are just not trustworthy enough. I only brought it up because more than once Calmdown has told me not to pre-chose my lists, then i saw this post. :3 Oh, you didn't sound like a jerk, I was just saying that hypothetical lists aren't a totally Theoryfaux practice that no one should ever engage in, and that list writing and adapting to the strategies/schemes aren't mutually exclusive. One can do both. To keep this thing vaguely on topic, given that Chompy needs more support in combat than he did previously, what do people think of Teddie? Is it any good? Worth playing with more than one? I was planning on just using the Twins I already had when combat was required. However, given that Two Sided apparently (I don't think it's been officially ruled on, but it was the impression I got) hurts them when they're buried, making them harder for the Dreamer to ferry around, I was wondering if having something else to unbury in an enemy's face when needed might be good. Thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetid Strumpet Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 I would pretty much put it to you this way: Lelu does more dmg then Teddy. Lelu is faster than Teddy. (has Melee expert vs. Flurry) Lelu is 2 SS cheaper than Teddy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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