Avatar Marcus little feedback

[poulpox]

Hi all!

Well, after trying to get aMarcus on the table for my last 3 games, I must admit that I am a little perplex at how to use him. In my last game I had a good hand and a few ss left, but no Tome or Ram, so I couldn't cast roar, nor confluence, nor do high damage strikes... My good beasts had already died and I was left with a mole and a raptor to "rise" to top it up...

I felt that:

a. amarcus is ultra dependant on cards: if you don't have the right suit, you're a bit locked, and chimeric assault is painful if you have a good hand as you need to discard to strike (if it was one card per activation it'd be nicer, but hey...)!

b. amarcus is great at boosting other beasts rather than being himself the beatstick, which seems a little counter intuitive with the feel of the mini. After those games I think when fielding him one needs to play very defensively with the minions, keeping the good beasts back until the manifestation, while launching Marcus forward with expendable beasts to get the manifestation requirements, to later alpha strike while manifested, with improved Cbs and the help of Instinctual Behaviour with a hard team.

Basically without his beasts, aMarcus he's a bit too average a model and isn't as good as Marcus alone I think to take down models. With his beasts around, he can be devastating I think, the only difficulty is to keep the strong beasts alive until turn 4-5. "Rise of the beasts" seems to summarise very well the avatar function in fact.

I think the difficulty for me came from realising once far in the battle that this model doesn't play like the unmanifested version! I guess that's the point of it though hehe, but it's quite hard to practice since the manifestation only happens late in the game.

I'm looking forward to try again and see if the early game defensive style works better.

Any similar experiences around?

Edited March 16, 2012 by poulpox

[Rathnard]

Sadly, I haven't had too many chances to use him - even in games where I take AMarcus he'll either manifest too late or not manifest at all. I'm working on getting more experience with him though.

So far, I've come to three conclusions;

1. He's very reliant on your hand and your soulstones.

2. Having a Post-Avatar Jackalope is pretty cool.

3. A Soul Stoned Roar can be game-winning vs a living crew.

I'd like to get some more use out of Evolutionary Confluence but the cost is so very high. Needing a good :tomes AND a Soulstone means you're more likely to ignore the spell altogether and just dropping a card for the odd single, specialist attack.

For now, he definitely feels like a Beast support model.

[Nephalumps]

My experiences have been pretty much the same. I used aMarcus in a few games early on, and while I still don't have a solid grasp on him, I did learn some things. After pondering it awhile, here are a few thoughts that may help others in the community trying to sort this guy out.

First thought regarding aMarcus: he's much more of a backfield model. He doesn't necessarily become "squishy," but losing his Df trigger and Feral Heart hurts (even if he does gain +1 Df and +1 Wd in the transition.) The biggest thing, though, is losing his ability to replace Wk with Cg.

This more than anything else has him playing more of a backfield role, because he just can't scream across the table like he can in his normal form, and as a result ends up in bad places if you try to have him to anything too aggressive. Combine that with less defensive potential and rules that make you want to eat through SS, and aMarcus just shouldn't be at the fore.

Second thought: as more of a backfield model, he gains some potent tools to affect the game, though they're frustratingly limited in places. The biggest one is his AoE "Wp duel or become a Beast" action - if that action wasn't limited to Living or Undead models (IIRC,) it would be really awesome, especially combined with his still-pretty-good ability to impose to enemy Beasts. But because that limitation is there, and because there are so many crews that are built on models with types other than Living or Undead, it ends up being a really niche ability.

aMarcus' Feral Instincts spell (the -DF, +murder one, whatever it's called,) is a really potent buff, though the :rams requirement makes it a pain sometimes. I don't consider that an unreasonable requirement, but it is something that makes him a bit harder to use well.

Third thought: you almost have to build a crew specifically to take advantage of aMarcus' abilities. What makes this tricky is that such a crew probably isn't in line with a "normal" Marcus crew, at least as much as it's currently discussed by the community.

For aMarcus, you want at least one big scary Beast model you can hit with his buffing spell, and have it rip a key enemy model in half. Having a second one around wouldn't be too bad, as you can activate up to two models with his "Rise of the Beasts" ability. Alternatively, some folks have mentioned bringing along Silurids as the second "model" you activate with that ability (since they can all activate simultaneously,) and I think that would be pretty damn effective (and they're great at running objectives prior to Marcus manifesting.)

Also, because Beasts are so damn squishy, there's probably a need to build some redundancy in the list, so that if something gets capped/neutralized early on you still have some options to fall back on.

Fourth thought: aMarcus definitely seems like one of those Avatars that you want to gun it and try to Manifest early. Thankfully, his Manifesting requirements are really easy to achieve: hit someone with his stick once, and cast an easy to cast spell at the enemy twice. In the times I've used him, aMarcus is almost always able to Manifest on turn 2/3, which is probably right about where he needs to pop unless you're playing really cagey (which never seems to work for me.)

I think it's also critical to Manifest early, because the longer you wait, the less of an impact aMarcus' abilities will have when you do Manifest. Being able to overwhelm your opponent with a horde of crazed beasties could be pretty potent, and it'll give you more flexibility in how you apply aMarcus' abilities. The smaller your crew is, the harder it's going to be to sustain that offense.

Final thought: aMarcus' is not "one size fits all." Some Avatars are good enough to take in pretty much any game; aMarcus is not one of those. Crews that leverage Wp duels are a bad matchup, and any Strategy that relies on your crew holding ground or otherwise enduring is probably a bad fit as well. That's more of my gut reaction, but I mainly see aMarcus as a way to turn up the heat when you're in a situation that relies on you being able to punch everything to death. While that can be nice to have, it's not always warranted, or beneficial (since aMarcus comes with some pretty potent downsides.)

[poulpox]

Thanks guys, that's pretty good and helpful feedback.

I agree aMarcus isn't a match for any opposing crew. I think I'd limit it to living and undead opponents. I also agree his crew has to be adapted to suit aMarcus, although I feel huge beatsticks might not be as necessary and some 5-8ss models could do it (yes the Silurid rise is one I hope to achieve at some point). As it stands I'm thinking of 20ss worth of strong melee beasts (pack of 3 Silurids + 1 Hoarcats or maybe 1 Rogue Necro + 2 Silurids? or what about Myranda + Rogue Necro?), then one or two fast cheap models to escort Marcus to achieve his manifestation requirements (2 Raptors or 1 or 2 Night Terrors?) and whatever for the rest (MacTavish? such a great model with solid long range, and if turned into beast with good melee stats, I love the man!).

Definitely feels like aMarcus is a support model as opposed to front line hitter, wanting to de-buff the opponent before his horde of fluffs launches forward.

I'll continue exploring the thing...

T.

Edited March 16, 2012 by poulpox

[poulpox]

Hey community!

One month on, any more discoveries and feedback for aMarcus?

[poulpox]

Well, I had another go with aMarcus, and it was... well, nothing really special.

In a game vs Ophelia, by the time I manifested all my petty beasts were dead... Although I did manage a Roar to criple a few gremlins in a turn, I was still left with the feeling that the avatar wasn't doing anything his fellow Master could have done.

Not having minions about to boost is really leaving aMarcus unable to perform to his max potential, but I strugle to manisfest before turn 4 (I can usually do it as a (2) in turn 3 but I feel it's a little of a waste), and by that time, the beasts are usually out, although I must admit I wasn't trying to hold back the minions until I manifefsted, which I guess was a mistake.

Tough avatar to find uses for I think, but I aren't giving up yet!

[poulpox]

Well I had one more go, this time against McMourning.

Avatar Marcus was once more... lame. His supposed talent being to alpha strike with 2+ more models was useless once more as there was only one potential beast left close by, although I did play quite cagey; he was just so unable to do damage: his options are either debuff ennemies and sit still, or IF you have the cards, do some damage, and facing 2 flesh constructs was overwhelming: striking with a minimum of 2 Dg just isn't enough.

There was nothing aMarcus was more useful at doing than Marcus (the only potential one was Diving Attack, which is great but not enough to my taste).

I try to be positive about aMarcus, but... I'm sadly struggling to see the potential here: too limited with opponents match-ups (usable only vs Living and Undead to be worth it), too card dependent and consuming (I think Chimeric Assault could maybe be discard one card per activation, not per strike? Although there is value in doing different kind of strikes, it's just too much a waste of cards!), minimum Dg of 2 even when discarding Ram (I wonder if this is a mistake, as Evolutionary Confluence, which is a combination of most suits' "power-ups" has a minimum of 3 Dg?). Slower than Marcus.

But most of all, I can't see what aMarcus does different from his Master beside Roar and Diving Attack?! By the time he manifests, there's just not many models left to alpha strike, and his own power is too similar to Marcus.

I feel disappointed by the model (I have made a point to try and like it, even the sculpt!), and I think I'm not going to bother with it anymore unless someone offers a brilliant idea!

T.

[poulpox]

Well, continuing my bable on aMarcus (am I the only one trying to get it to work?), I sat and pondered on what was meant to be his purpose. We all have a purpose in life, even aMarcus!

As far as we've seen he either debuffs several models, or alpha strikes, that's more or less it, and he has a great obey type spell, and Roar which is very powerful. So what particular use can there be for it? And then I thought of Assassinate.

Now regular Marcus can Stare Down a master, but cannot Dominate a master, so at first glance Marcus is better at neutralising opponent masters. However, to Stare down means that Marcus has to do feral beforehand, which means he'll probably have no buff on his Dg, and will only be able to perform a (2) Charge to strike the enemy. With me so far?

With aMarcus, when facing Living masters, you suddenly have access to Roar, and the potential to make an opponent's master fall back, which is very huge. Not only that, but combined with Smell Fear, this gives you a free charge, awesome!

If you've already manifested, you'll probably need to move in range of Smell Fear (6") to have the full potential of the combo:

(1) Fly in place

(0) Smell Fear

(1) Roar (hopefully then you get to charge)

(1) Strike

Now this is where this gets funky is if you have one non-living bully closeby, say Rogue Necro (but you could use SnowStorm or Joss, but Steamborg I'm not sure since he counts also as living, also not Mechanical Rider since it has Immune to Influence), and maybe McTavish to make sure the RN is in the right place at the beginning of the move:

McTavish:

(1) Wrangle Critter on RN to put it within 10" of enemy master

(+ whatever else you want)

aMarcus:

(1) Fly into position

(0) Smell Fear

(0) Feral on your beat-stick if it's not a beast *

(1) Roar (and charge)

(1) Instinctive Behaviour on RN to charge (with RN it's a charge of 11"!) master which is falling back

Then tadaaa! Thanks to Rise of the Beasts, RN gets to activate immediately, inflicting more pain on a master who has negative flip on all its defense flips!

*You need to use a non-living beast so that it doesn't fall back because of Roar. If the model is not a beast (SnowStorm, Joss), you can use Feral on it before you cast Instinctive Behaviour on it.

Suddenly, with the chance of having the opponent's master unable to cheat fate because of falling back, the prognostic of taking them down is rather high.

If you manage to pull this after the opponent's master has activated, this also means that they will spend next turn rallying, still plagued with a negative flip, and unable to move away (I'm looking at you Von Schill...!)

This combo only requires a high tome + ss for Roar and a ram for IB; it's not certain to work since the opponent will also have use of ss, but I think if it's tried towards the end of the game, turn 5 or 6, there are good chances the ss will be depleted or low especially if you tried to force them out.

There are a fair amount of masters you could pull this off against:

. LadyJ and Sonnia (against the latter aMarcus is definitely good to manifest as he loses 1 point of casting thus unabling Sonnia to cast without LoS against him).

Not Hoff (construct) or Perdita (immune to influence)

. All 3 living resser masters (not Kirai)

. Marcus and Colette and Rasputina (although against the latter's crew aMarcus isn't maybe the best choice)

Not Ramos (construct)

. Lilith (great to target her Wp rather than her Df as well) and Pandora.

Not Dreamer (Spirit/Nightmare) or Zoraida (Wp 10 is a bit to high, unless she doesn't have any ss left)

. Som'er and Viks.

Not Levi nor Hamlin (Souless).

I will now go on and try to make this work to see...

Edited June 7, 2012 by poulpox

[Dustcrusher]

Why not Kirai if you can get to her before she becomes a Spirit? I guess that's too unlikely.

I'm curious to see what else you come up with for aMarcus.

[poulpox]

I think because Kirai is still tough to assassinate if she has Seishins still hanging around, even if not in spirit world. Furthermore, aMarcus isn't really geared for dealing serious Dg against spirits, unlike Marcus' buffed shilelagh attacks, so even if you were to concentrate on taking her down until then you would struggle to kill the minions (well unless you geared your minions to do it).

[Koali]

@ Paulpox

You are willing to fight Pandora with aMarcus...

I don´t think its a good Idea... youz loose Howl and habe an significant WP Decrease at your Beasts...

That all makes Pandora hurt your crew a lot.

Also Fughting Raspy is not good becaus the Gamins are not living.... goning after Raspy herself can be good bt well,... no easy thing to do...

And if i play a nonbeast Beatstick i change him/her with a raptor permanant for the game... so in that case you do not need Feral.

Chasing after Masters is alwas a thing about lucky flips... because the can also use SS to push their Resistflips...

All in all Marcus in general can deal quite welll with non Immune to WP masters in the right circumstances.. Alpha could be realy great against them.... but its soooo dificult to do that...

And this Avatar Tactic above is also something that should not be seen that often on the table...

Sad but true...

I wished they had give aMarcus some solid Melle Potential. But with all his Card eating Melle Attacks... he still feels like wrong.

Well look at the Model... ab Big, Winged Pile of Muscles.... and he hits like a littel Girl...

There is somthing wrong with that!

[poulpox]

Yes, going for Assassinate is never an easy task, but hey, I like a challenge!

I think the point of this reflection/thread is just to try and juice out the best out of aMarcus, and maybe master hunting is what the avatar is ultimately designed for?

You're right about Pandora, losing the Wp point might be an open door to trouble.

Regarding Rasputina, yes she's tough but just like all other masters. It's just that she has no special resilience to the Roar tactic I think, and therefore is a good target. The fact that her crew are constructs isn't really an issue, and in fact using aMarcus poisonous attakcs can be very useful in this case to avoid being in melee when the models is killed. My idea here is just a Roaring Assassination which concentrates on the opponent's master.

Yes there is a bit of luck, well always so indeed, but in my experience by turn 5 the ss pools can be very depleted and therefore a good opportunity to strike if the Marcus player has managed his own pool well.

I used to turn the non-beast models into beast too with raptors, however several times I did fail to get the trigger to happen after 3 turns, particularly when trying wit hSnowStorm or Joss who have such high Df, locking both raptors and the beatstick in the back, while now I enjoy having the raptors forward in recon and in the feet of the opponent where they are so useful; furthermore using raptors to beastify led me to forget several times in the past that Marcus could feral his own models when needed; it's just another way of doing, both are good (using feral also avoids your own model to lose 1 Wd which can sometimes be a crucial Wd not to have!)

I hope to be able to try out the roar soon

[poulpox]

Right, finally had a successful use of aMarcus, vs Viks:

The conditions were more or less as usual: by turn 4 I had RogueN left and 2 Night Terrors, having lost 2 Raptors and McTav, and managed only 1 manifestation requirement by crossing all over the board to strike down a librarian; interestingly my opponent was playing cagey, sending only a convict forward supported by VonSchill and Viks, so when I pierced deep through his line, he started regrouping back, particularly as we were playing contain power and Marcus was then a juicy target.

On turn 4 I had the card and ss so I pulled the trick: 1 manifest, 1 walk, 0 smell fear, 1 roar and had the whole of my friend's crew but one Vik falling back! Now this allowed me to charge the convict, which in turn put me in range of RN to activate it immediately to charge as well, nice!

The only downfall to that is that I just couldn't kill anything: one charge on convict wasn't of course enough to kill it, and going after Viks who still had ss wouldn't have worked neither. While the RN could have finished the convict I went after one Vik instead who soulstoned her way out of pain.

One issue with this plan is that I Roared as my first activation (it was looking a bit dangerous), which meant none of his guys had activated yet but VonSchill, and therefore I lost the potential of crippling him well the following turn (except for VS which I guess is good enough considering the range threat the guy is).

Also as Koali wrote, going after masters is tough and so uncertain if they have ss left (there's usually at least 1 or 2 left at turn 4) that this combo isn't great with killing masters in mind (although it could happen).

But what this demonstrated most of all is the power of a soulstoned Roar, which was in this game a game breaker: the Viks' crew was blocked until turn 5 (if done well it could have been turn 6) which allowed me to reposition myself and take my objectives.

So as I see it now the Roar combo is particularly good for screwing opponent's positioning and bogging him down for a turn, and maybe nucking a minion in the way, which is rather nice: as we know it's not about killing the opponent, but fulfilling strats and schemes.

I was glad it finally worked!