toning down the dreamer

[letsallchant]

it remains unexplained, there is a thread on it already. but due to past rulings you would assume the card rules take precedent until hearing otherwise. i myself never noticed the different wording on the card till someone brought it up on this forum, so have actually been playing it as written in the book.

i agree that the ability is more fun with a risk/reward component.

[magicpockets]

What specifics of bury would you change?

Thats an easy one(but not the point of this thread). Buried models should still participate in the closing phase.

Agree very much with this, despite my fondness for abusing Bette and SS Miners in Levi lists. Also, I think all burying should be like Bette's, you cant unbury a model the same turn that you bury it

My solution would be to make Frightening Dream unbury only non-Master Nightmares. The Dreamer would need to use Nightmare Friend instead to bring Chompy out, and the Daydreams would need to use Call Nightmares or Change into Nightmare. You could still do a version of the Chompy sling, but it would require sacrificing a Daydream every time, which seems like a decent balance.

That is a really good idea.

+1 This is a very elegant option imo

[Gollum528]

There was the thought earlier of making it so you can't companion the daydreams that got me thinking a bit. If they made it so you could only companion one daydream at a time it would give the opposing player a chance to respond most of the time. It wouldn't affect any of the other companion chains really and wouldn't cuddle the dreamer that much.

[CN the Logos]

There was the thought earlier of making it so you can't companion the daydreams that got me thinking a bit. If they made it so you could only companion one daydream at a time it would give the opposing player a chance to respond most of the time. It wouldn't affect any of the other companion chains really and wouldn't cuddle the dreamer that much.

There are a few leaders that can use multiple totems. Ophelia and Somer both, Colette... not sure who else if anyone, but that's just off the top of my head. I'd argue that the best solution to the Dreamer is the one that requires the least amount of messing with the overall rules; restricting the number of Daydreams that can be hired at the start of the game only requires making a change to one model, and that change isn't so massive that people would feel cheated by being "forced" to buy a three pack of them.

[schristofersen]

There are a few leaders that can use multiple totems. Ophelia and Somer both, Colette... not sure who else if anyone, but that's just off the top of my head. I'd argue that the best solution to the Dreamer is the one that requires the least amount of messing with the overall rules; restricting the number of Daydreams that can be hired at the start of the game only requires making a change to one model, and that change isn't so massive that people would feel cheated by being "forced" to buy a three pack of them.

totally agree. Minimal adjustment is the way to go.

Things started out on a reasonable foot in this thread and quickly got out of hand in my opinion. I think limiting the dreamer to one or no daydreams on the first turn limits him from getting out and back pretty nicely. The option still exists to move about and possibly get attacks on an enemy model that moves up a bit but prevents the complete lack of being able to prevent a model from being attacked anywhere on the board (as i've been playing Levi lately this ability is irritating to say the least).

If chompy (or the dreamer) gets stranded out front things can go south for the crew very quickly. As any dreamer player will tell you not getting the all done trigger is a teeth gritting experience. The be all end all reputation is based on the ability to get in and hit like a ton of bricks, and then get out.

Being able to get to literally any model on the board turn one, drop off two lelus and a lillitu possibly a stitched or two, and get out of range of any retaliation is better than any master in the game. But don't go too crazy on the cuddles. Limiting daydreams to one or none has not just got the effect of keeping him from being able to come back (with only one) or reach out and touch someone (with two) but also effectively reduces his SS pool. Sure daydreams only cost him 2 SS to cast, but that means with one he has a maximum effective pool of 6 as you really need to be able to get chompy the heck out of dodge, or 4 if you limit him to none that are hirable.

[Ozz]

Personal opinion here, but i think limiting him to being able to hire no daydreams is a little to much, though as has been said many times, being able to hire one and summon the rest sounds good to me though:)

[Joel]

Just been listening to the EricJ interview at Christmas on the gamers lounge (ep45), from that it seems pretty clear that wyrd don't see dreamers first strike capabilities as a problem, but rather just a challenge.

Not expecting a change any time soon.

[CN the Logos]

Just been listening to the EricJ interview at Christmas on the gamers lounge (ep45), from that it seems pretty clear that wyrd don't see dreamers first strike capabilities as a problem, but rather just a challenge.

Not expecting a change any time soon.

Most people here aren't complaining about the Dreamer's potential first strike. That's fine, if on the stronger side of Malifaux's tier list. Where the problem comes in is that the Dreamer can first strike and then return to his own deployment zone with no negative consequences. This ability might "challenge" a few lists that can survive a couple turns of this, but against most other Masters, it just leaves the other player not wanting to play against the Dreamer anymore. That becomes a problem for both the people who like the Dreamer and want to play him without being looked at as "that jerk who plays broken stuff in casual games" and the people who want to run Masters outside the Big Five in a Dreamer-heavy meta. Saying "it's a challenge, we meant to do that" doesn't actually address the problem at all.

But there's always house rules, I guess. And maybe he just meant that Wyrd wants to preserve the Dreamer's status as a powerful master while making him slightly less broken. A man can dream, right?

[Fetid Strumpet]

The issue is that if they allow the power imbalances to stay, if they even agree that there are imbalances ,which they are more than within their rights to do, then they will swiftly have an issue where comp'd events will most likely be the norm. Sure there will always be people who say that the game is balanced and anyone who doesn't agree just needs to "learn to play" the same can be said of WHFB and 40k. There are still people who say those games are totally balanced, and that comp is for wimps who just need to quit crying.

The longer Wyrd allows massive power imbalances to remain in the game, the more chance this has of happening, because players are going to change the game to make it more fun for them, and to address major issues they perceive. I don't know if Wyrd really cares if this happens, it might not worry them at all, but banned, restricted, and altered models I feel will be the norm for most tournaments if some issues are not addressed.

[CN the Logos]

By "comp'd events" you mean events giving the disadvantaged Master a handicap and/or house ruling the more powerful Master as discussed in this thread? Because that's already happening to some extent. I seriously plan to adopt rules like this for my Dreamer crew against everyone who isn't also running the Dreamer or another member of the Big Five. The owner of the gaming store I play at has outright stated he won't play against the Dreamer at all, and if his opponent in a tournament is using the Dreamer, he'll concede before the game begins, because the play experience for him has been that negative. That's not "challenging," that's "a negative play experience so strong it seriously hurts the game." Subtle difference there.

But yeah. The Dreamer will be patched. The only question is whether said patch will be official or not.

Edited March 17, 2012 by CN the Logos

[Dezzo]

The Dreamer makes us hate children even more.

[schristofersen]

The Dreamer makes us hate children even more.

Not to completely derail the thread but we were just talking on thursday about how many times you end up killing children in Malifaux... we found it humorous.

To reiterate what several people have been saying: The dreamers ability to reach out and hit something first turn isn't the biggest part of the problem. Several crews can do that (although arguably not as well in most cases) but none have the ability to do so and get away.

The ability to drop his crew down in addition is also a big issue... but really only for a crew or two...(i'm looking at you levi)

[CN the Logos]

Not to completely derail the thread but we were just talking on thursday about how many times you end up killing children in Malifaux... we found it humorous.

On the other hand, most of those children have the decency to have had their souls ripped out before being enslaved by creepy men with disturbing undertones of sexual predation. The Dreamer, on the other hand, is an annoyingly "precocious" child who thinks that his murdering people is just a fun game (never mind the fact that his imaginary friend looks a lot like how many people picture Satan), he's pretty much omnipotent in his "dream," and he's immune to any consequences of his actions since his body is safely Earthside and as far as I know, there's been no hint that he takes actual damage if he loses a fight in Malifaux.

He's a more human-looking Scrappy-Doo, only on the side of evil and with actual superpowers. I really want to know who thought that was a good idea. Because it wasn't. At all. Chompy's pretty cool, and the concept has potential (see "Thus I Refute Beelzy" for a creepy child with a not-so-imaginary demonic friend done well), but the Dreamer himself just irritates me to no end.

The ability to drop his crew down in addition is also a big issue... but really only for a crew or two...(i'm looking at you levi)

I think it says something that I know Leveticus auto-loses to the Dreamer, and am still considering picking him up, because screw it, taking the Dreamer into account in a list of poor matchups means eliminating pretty much everyone else. I've kinda wanted to run Levi since I started playing though; him being sort of a steampunk version of Kiel Lorenz is enough to convince me to overlook a fair number of faults, provided he's at least decent.

[Joel]

As a newbie and a dreamer player, I want to add that playing the dreamer isn't easy. Sure, learning the slingshot isn't too difficult, but this doesn't get you your objectives. As soon as you start moving models about its easy to do something that means you have screwed yourself over for a turn or more.

Has anyone simply considered NOT slingshotting? Problem solved (for club games) by virtue of the age old remedy of "don't be a dick". In a tournament, fair enough, but doing the slingshot isn't all there is to the dreamer.

Also, Levi is a master I am going to soon (models already bought), as just like the dreamer, I love the fluff. Maybe when I improve at Malifaux and know both masters, I'll be able to figure something out.

[Fetid Strumpet]

If you require self regulating to make a game more fun and more even for an opponent there is a problem. Simply not using the slingshot voluntarily is not a solution. I personally have a very large issue with the ability to drop an entire crew off, in an opponent's deployment zone, on the first turn. Especially when you consider that the NB have both a good number of awesome multi-activating models, "Oh, did I just drop 2 Lelu off in your Deployment zone, and a Lilitu upfield? You get one activation before the double Lelu bond activate with Lilitu and kill anything that thought it could fight back." Or the "I just dropped 3 Stitched together off in you Deployment zone. They are going to destroy your hand, feed mine, and kill as many of your models as I can."

I saw a game once where an entire Colette crew, minus Colette herself, was wiped out completely on the first turn of a game. I mean I just can't understand people who think this is just fine and totally balanced, the ability to move an entire crew around so far, with no real effort or resources required. I mean I might be more forgiving or accepting if it required a high card value and an additional suit requirement, or if Chompy were a minion that had to be hired, or couldn't use SS, but it doesn't and he doesn't. All that is required is a 3 of masks or better, thats all. For a comparable example, look at Mortimer's Fresh Meat ability. It's an ability that gives all undead models a potential free single wlk towards a particular model, who gets a chance to resist the spell, and therefore negate the whole move. Additionally it requires a 7 of Masks or better.

I just don't see, other than a bad player making a play mistake, how anyone can say the Dreamer is balanced against the other masters in the game.

[letsallchant]

i think the dreamers mechanic is great. it just needs some tweaking imo. but we can talk about this all day the only way to meaningful data is to playtest some of these tweaks!

[Joel]

I know I'm not the most experienced player, so please correct me if I'm wrong, but..

Turn 1, dreamer player in a list with 2 daydreams, goes for the boomerang, kills a model and returns, leaving a daydream exposed.

Opposing player nukes that daydream (having taken more than one model that can do so in case chompy killed one of them)

Turn 2, chompy could try it again, but now cannot return - and if the time is being spent to get another daydream, then chompy isn't attacking much due to lack of activation ponts.

So the crew drops in instead maybe - but if this works depends on how the opponent is now positioned, and the dreamer can't get out of the way either.

Now...what can nuke that daydream on first activation?

[CN the Logos]

As a newbie and a dreamer player, I want to add that playing the dreamer isn't easy. Sure, learning the slingshot isn't too difficult, but this doesn't get you your objectives. As soon as you start moving models about its easy to do something that means you have screwed yourself over for a turn or more.

Has anyone simply considered NOT slingshotting? Problem solved (for club games) by virtue of the age old remedy of "don't be a dick". In a tournament, fair enough, but doing the slingshot isn't all there is to the dreamer.

Of course the slingshot isn't all there is to the Dreamer. He also has a plethora of abilities revolving around supporting some of the best models in the game. Also, any fix revolving around the basic goodness of human nature is an especially amusing joke. I bought the Dreamer specifically to counter someone else using the Dreamer who was being a jerk about it. No prize money or anything on the line, the guy just enjoys walking into casual tourneys at a local game store and unleashing the cheese, presumably because Daddy didn't love him enough as a child or something. Now, I'm all for a formal agreement to limit hiring in such a way as to make the slingshot and similar tactics harder, but the key words there are "formal agreement." I always assume I'm dealing with jerks until proven otherwise. It's easier that way.

Also, the repeated assertion that "killing models doesn't get you victory points" needs to stop. For one, multiple schemes and strategies do, in fact, require you to kill models. Two, a killed model can't do anything else for the rest of the game, preventing its owner from using to get victory points, and Chompy's incredible speed allows him to be exactly where he needs to be to kill anything that looks like it might accomplish something useful. Have some Night Terrors running around getting VP for you while Chompy and his fellow heavy hitters make sure your opponent doesn't get their VP; it's not like Chompy needs that much support to wreck face provide he doesn't just stop in front of your opponent's heavy hitters.

If you require self regulating to make a game more fun and more even for an opponent there is a problem. Simply not using the slingshot voluntarily is not a solution. I personally have a very large issue with the ability to drop an entire crew off, in an opponent's deployment zone, on the first turn. Especially when you consider that the NB have both a good number of awesome multi-activating models, "Oh, did I just drop 2 Lelu off in your Deployment zone, and a Lilitu upfield? You get one activation before the double Lelu bond activate with Lilitu and kill anything that thought it could fight back." Or the "I just dropped 3 Stitched together off in you Deployment zone. They are going to destroy your hand, feed mine, and kill as many of your models as I can."

On the other hand, at least some crews can respond to this, which is an improvement over not getting to respond at all. That's the amusing thing to me about this thread; I think most of us would be happy if Dreamer was just a little bit less overwhelming in Tier One - no one thinks that he's going to be cuddled to much lower than that.

I saw a game once where an entire Colette crew, minus Colette herself, was wiped out completely on the first turn of a game. I mean I just can't understand people who think this is just fine and totally balanced, the ability to move an entire crew around so far, with no real effort or resources required. I mean I might be more forgiving or accepting if it required a high card value and an additional suit requirement, or if Chompy were a minion that had to be hired, or couldn't use SS, but it doesn't and he doesn't. All that is required is a 3 of masks or better, thats all.

Huh. I thought Colette had some movement tricks that made her a decent choice against the Dreamer, provided she didn't flip something silly like Slaughter for her Strategy. Then again, I haven't looked much at her and don't have the book. How'd that match go?

I know I'm not the most experienced player, so please correct me if I'm wrong, but..

Turn 1, dreamer player in a list with 2 daydreams, goes for the boomerang, kills a model and returns, leaving a daydream exposed.

Opposing player nukes that daydream (having taken more than one model that can do so in case chompy killed one of them)

Turn 2, chompy could try it again, but now cannot return - and if the time is being spent to get another daydream, then chompy isn't attacking much due to lack of activation ponts.

So the crew drops in instead maybe - but if this works depends on how the opponent is now positioned, and the dreamer can't get out of the way either.

Now...what can nuke that daydream on first activation?

Hamelin and Pandora, from what I've heard, can handle a couple of Chompy slingshots for the most part, provided their position isn't terrible. Kirai, Viktoria, Collodi, and I think Colette (not sure here) have movement shenanigans that could get them to the Daydream, depending on terrain and starting positions. Beyond that I don't know.

Notice that most of those crews are considered to be high tier in their own right. Access to movement tricks means a great deal as far as power goes in Malifaux.

Edited March 19, 2012 by CN the Logos

[letsallchant]

you dont actually need to expose a daydream. you need to advance one forward, but smart use of terrain can still leave it protected. its not too hard to hide a ht1 spirit. of course if your opponent is fast and tries hard enough then yeah they are gonna die. probably not in turn one, maybe not even it turn two... but eventually they will eat it.

if only there was a way to make the dreamer less of a threat at the start of the game...

[Joel]

Could niño or another long range sniper get that daydream dead turn 1?

Could a possible fix, if one is required, be not allowing more than one daydream on the field at once (unburying one buries the other), in a similar manner to how the dreamer and chompy work?

[Sliver Chocobo]

Remove the All My friends trigger, Make it so that every time he places a Nightmare he need to buries one first and bigger hiring pool for nighmares

[RebeccaJo]

Could niño or another long range sniper get that daydream dead turn 1?

The Trapper might be able to take one out turn 1, if not then by turn 2. He has deployment shenanigans, a 14" range (I think), and considerable damage (I don't have book 2 with me to recite verbatim).

[Kadeton]

The Trapper's deployment shenanigans aren't worth spit, in my opinion. Being unable to deploy within 12" of any known objective makes it a very limited ability. If the Dreamer player declares Reclaim Malifaux, every piece of terrain on the board becomes an objective, so the Trapper can't use From The Shadows at all.

Von Schill is probably most crews' best chance at taking out Daydreams. He's got a 22" threat range, Use Soulstone, and kills a Daydream in one shot. He's tough for Chompy to take out (as long as you have stones) and impossible to pin down. He's not great at Terrifying checks, though.

[RebeccaJo]

The Trapper's deployment shenanigans aren't worth spit, in my opinion. Being unable to deploy within 12" of any known objective makes it a very limited ability. If the Dreamer player declares Reclaim Malifaux, every piece of terrain on the board becomes an objective, so the Trapper can't use From The Shadows at all.

Von Schill is probably most crews' best chance at taking out Daydreams. He's got a 22" threat range, Use Soulstone, and kills a Daydream in one shot. He's tough for Chompy to take out (as long as you have stones) and impossible to pin down. He's not great at Terrifying checks, though.

I don't take the Trapper unless I'm sticking him somewhere and not moving him, which is still very rare. Von Schill does have Stubborn to boost his WP plus Hard Ass which boosts others.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Honestly, and I'll up front I'm not the greatest Dreamer player in the world, having mainly gotten him to help a friend prep for Adepticon, past the first turn I find that it's annoying to have you go after the daydreams, but after I gut your crew for a turn or two I've found I don't really need my Daydreams any more. Add this to the fact that nothing I want them to do, in general needs LoS to do, and the fact that they are height 1 Spirits means that I have a very solid chance of protecting them from anything that is basically not one of the top masters in the game.

Honestly, the more I think about it, the more I wonder if fixing the Dreamer is really

1) Ever going to happen, as I get the impression from Wyrd, rightly or wrongly, that they feel everything is working as intended.

and

2) Even the right Idea.

While I feel that the stupid movement shenanigans of the Book 2 minions and masters (+plus you Pandora) really take away from what I think is one of the best things about Malifaux, I really don't see in a large amount of cases how you fix the model without really wrecking it. For example I've stated multiple times that I don't agree with how Pandora's mechanics currently work in the game. In her current configuration I don't feel she should exist in the game, but given how she works I don't see how you fix her without basically redesigning the master from scratch, which I'm also not a fan of. I'm beginning to think more and more that the better solution is to just power up ALL the other masters that are not currently looked at as upper tier. The introduction of special Minions and totems to the game, not as cuddles for what is currently out there, but as enhancers for their intended masters and factions.