Malifaux Masters: A Tier List

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

Tier 1: Cake

Tier 2: Pie

Tier 3: Ice cream

Thoughts?

I find your lack of cookies disturbing.

[msgfree]

No way! It's obviously icecream, cake THEN pie. If you don't agree, then you mustn't eat many deserts, and your opinion is flawed!

Anyone who says ice cream is better than pie (assuming equal skill with a spoon, of course) is either an idiot or an ice cream fanboy! Take off your blinders!

[Lucidicide]

I find your lack of cookies disturbing.

That's Tier 1+. I didn't find it worth mentioning, as everyone worth their salt knows cookies are 1+.

[nilus]

Honestly this has been a really interesting thread and I think for the most part everyone has stayed pretty civil.

To respond all the comments I missed

Play testing is a lot harder then some people think. Like Lalo said for everything that might have slipped in you have to realize all of the broken things that were fixed. Has Wyrd playtesting been perfect...probably not, mistakes have been made but like all new companies they are learning from those mistakes and moving forward.

My point about forum etiquette and playtesting was not about excluding people who say the game is broken or coming up with broken combos. Its about people who don't play nice with others. Its not about how much you know about the game its how well you work in team with other people who might have entirely different opinions then you. There have been some very heated playtest threads with people with very different opinions debating merits of certain models or rules. And these were with people who are generally pretty casual and even tempered on these forums. If you can't show that you can keep your cool on the public forums then how can they trust you to try to keep objective and level headed when there is a real stake in your opinion. Honestly I may be entirely off base here, for all I know Kel and sKeTcH might be planning to run the next play test with all the jerkiest and trolliest people on these forums but I have a feeling that isn't the case.

As for Nico vs Dreamer. Its a up hill battle for Nico. I am sure someone may have unlocked a secret I don't know about but in my experience Nico just doesn't have what it takes. But then again I am very rusty with Nico and have not played him much in the book 3 world.

---------- Post added at 09:09 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:05 AM ----------

That's Tier 1+. I didn't find it worth mentioning, as everyone worth their salt knows cookies are 1+.

Yeah Cookies are clearly broken and they will continue to be until they fix the dunking them in milk mechanic

I feel Cake and Pie are both Tier 1, they each fit a different need and with an experienced eater can both get you what you need. Although if you consider Donuts a cake sub faction then they probably have the edge

[Lucidicide]

Although if you consider Donuts a cake sub faction then they probably have the edge

I understand why you'd say that, but the fact of the matter is that the Donut Henchman is pretty much the bottom of the barrel. So the ability to only take 2 Donuts without him is a real limiting factor.

[Patchwork]

Interesting that this turned into a Dreamer vs. Nico thread as I played that very matchup last night. Very tough game.

Nico:6 Dreamer:5

[ravenborne]

My entire point in bringing up Nicodem vs Dreamer is not to get into a Batman vs Superman argument or get into tactica.

My point is that if there is going to be such a thing as a Tier list, then there needs to be some sort of explanation or qualifier that explains why one model gets rated so far down the list, and so much so that we need an entire sub par category "Tier 5" to throw it into. Dreamer can run the same scenario on plenty of masters, so what makes Nicodem a tier lower than, say, Ramos?

Since the criteria is going to be largely subjective, couldn't it at least be a bit more focused... something like this-

Create a Master vs Master list that contains all the strategies. List the percent advantaged each one is in each of those.

Theoretical Example: Hamlin vs Dreamer, Line in the Sand 50/50

I am wildly guessing at those numbers , but if you listed out all the strategies-- or at least grouped them into categories like "kill strategies", "Interact strategies" etc, you might have something that made a bit more sense out of the Tier list. What is the chance of any given master completing any given scheme or strategy?

Which also opens up the possibility that maybe some of the schemes and strategies are imbalanced more so than the masters themselves.

There are way too many factors to nail down, but if everyone had such a list, this sort of method might reveal a lot more about the meta of each area and insight into some of the Tier arguments.

[nilus]

My entire point in bringing up Nicodem vs Dreamer is not to get into a Batman vs Superman argument or get into tactica.

Not to derail this entirely off topic thread any further but I just want to state that I think Batman is OP

Edit: And with that I will now shut up and let people get back to the serious toy soldier debating, which has in fact been pretty interesting read.

[Guy in Suit]

There are three US Malifaux scenes I worry about competitively. The Warmongers in NY, Nix and the Nova guys and the guys coming from Georgia.

Center of the Universe Bitchezzzz

As for the rest - this thread is silly, if mostly accurate. I think 'Ease of Play' is a factor that should be factored in as well. I think the fact that its so easy to make one small mistake with S'omer that will take you out of a game should be a a detriment that puts him in teir 3 (Or whatever your 'middle' tier is.) His complex playstyle is harder to manage in later rounds of tournaments - EZ Button Dreamer or Hammy are just as straightforward in almost every scenario - and can be played after a half-dozen beers.

This same factor keeps Kirai below Dreamer and Hammy, IMO.

[Spiku]

The list is based on completion of all objectives with consideration to the actual match up itself. Dreamer being able to disable nico entirely just means that no matter the scenario he has the advantage. Equally, he is very killy and can be anywhere on the table with his entire crew.

This is much why Kirai is considered the best resser master; she has options for every scenario (though you'll hate shared escape and survive)

[Shadai]

Center of the Universe Bitchezzzz

As for the rest - this thread is silly, if mostly accurate. I think 'Ease of Play' is a factor that should be factored in as well. I think the fact that its so easy to make one small mistake with S'omer that will take you out of a game should be a a detriment that puts him in teir 3 (Or whatever your 'middle' tier is.) His complex playstyle is harder to manage in later rounds of tournaments - EZ Button Dreamer or Hammy are just as straightforward in almost every scenario - and can be played after a half-dozen beers.

This same factor keeps Kirai below Dreamer and Hammy, IMO.

While I think you are on to something with "Ease of Play", you're not hitting the right perspective.

There are some masters that are really easy to play. Like Viks, its pretty straight forward. Slingshot in, beat face, blow soulstones till that face stops moving. But being easy to play does not make them good.

What should be taken into consideration is "Forgiveness"

Some masters are really really good/powerful but have no forgiveness. I would use Colette as an example of this. She's really good when played properly, but you can't make a lot of mistakes with her and expect to win in the end.

So if there is a master who is really powerful and can make up for mistakes in play, then he's top tier. This doesn't mean someone who is harder to play like Colette should drop to the bottom of the list, but Forgiveness should play a part in separating like Tier masters.

[Vondur]

I know a lot of people hate tier lists. But a lot of people don't!

As has been recently made evident in another post, a lot of people define Tier lists according to the strength of the players in their local meta playing certain masters, rather than objectively assessing the masters and crews on their own merits.

As this hasn't been discussed for a while, I just thought it'd be interesting to write out what I currently consider to be the Malifaux Master tier list and see what people think themselves too.

Tier 1+

Hamelin

Tier 1

The Dreamer

Kirai

Tier 2

Pandora, Lilith, Somer, Collette, Sonnia, Collodi, Ophelia

Tier 3

Zoraida, Viktorias, Leveticus, Lady Justice, Hoffman, McMourning, Marcus, Von Schill, Kaeris

Tier 4

Rasputina, Ramos, Perdita

Tier 5

Seamus, Nicodem, Molly, Lucius

Wow is the game really this imbalanced? I'm just starting up again after my group abandoned Malifaux for the seemingly more balanced Warmachine. =/

[Lucidicide]

Wow is the game really this imbalanced? I'm just starting up again after my group abandoned Malifaux for the seemingly more balanced Warmachine. =/

No.

[Fetid Strumpet]

That is a matter of opinion. I would say it is unclear.

[nilus]

[magicpockets]

No.

+1

You'll only really see the imbalances in super competitive play, and even then there are counters to a lot of stuff...and people tend not to abuse the rest. Please remember this thread is specifically about perceived imbalances so will come across like loads of stuff is broken etc, but to be fair it's not that bad when playing Malifaux casually or even competitively in general.

Definitely DONT let a thread like this put you off the game, take it all with a pinch of salt. For example, I regularly troll Rasputina players on here but the truth is the last time I played against her (using Hamelin - who's "uber-broken" apparently) against Pox I got my ass handed to me (I won on VPs, but he destroyed my crew and would have won if I wasn't playing to the tourny time limit)

I've never ever known anyone to leave the game due to it being "broken" - and to me that says it all.

[nilus]

+1

You'll only really see the imbalances in super competitive play, and even then there are counters to a lot of stuff...and people tend not to abuse the rest. Please remember this thread is specifically about perceived imbalances so will come across like loads of stuff is broken etc, but to be fair it's not that bad when playing Malifaux casually or even competitively in general.

Magicpockets speaketh the truth. If you go on an internet forum and look, just about every game on the planet is broken. So much of this game depends on local meta preference and skill level that imbalanced discuss here may not be replicated anywhere else in the world.

In other words, just get out and play the game and make up your own minds. Don't let the internet tell you what to play and not play.

[Mergoth]

I think 'Ease of Play' is a factor that should be factored in as well. I think the fact that its so easy to make one small mistake with S'omer that will take you out of a game should be a a detriment that puts him in teir 3 (Or whatever your 'middle' tier is.) His complex playstyle is harder to manage in later rounds of tournaments - EZ Button Dreamer or Hammy are just as straightforward in almost every scenario - and can be played after a half-dozen beers.

Answer with...

IMO, in this game tiers don't really enter into it. A Master/Henchman is as complex to counter as he/she is to play, and vice versa.

Le quoting myself.

Wow is the game really this imbalanced? I'm just starting up again after my group abandoned Malifaux for the seemingly more balanced Warmachine. =/

Wow. So very much not. Don't get me wrong, I do enjoy me a game of Warmahordes, but it really is Cryx and Trollbloods ruling the roost. I've seen it and experienced it, and it's not even funny.

Edit to ninja nilus:

In other words, just get out and play the game and make up your own minds. Don't let the internet tell you what to play and not play.

Unless of course it's me - then take it seriously. ;P

Edited March 2, 2012 by Mergoth

[Guy in Suit]

What should be taken into consideration is "Forgiveness"

Synonymous usage.

Some masters are really really good/powerful but have no forgiveness. I would use Colette as an example of this. She's really good when played properly, but you can't make a lot of mistakes with her and expect to win in the end.

Not when I'm playing. She has Dissappearing Act AND Slow-to-Die + Heal. Pretty damn forgiving - not to mention you can just 'dissappear' whatever minion is giving you trouble.

The Viks are a total paper tiger and can be lost by leaving them within 19" instead of 19.5" of a Silent One - or whatever.

I think we are saying the same thing, but where I am sitting, when it comes to Forgiveness Collette > Viks

(Bias note: I play both, but enjoy the Viks more.)

Edited March 2, 2012 by Guy in Suit

[Dustcrusher]

I just want to remind everyone that we should keep our tempers in check here.

I'm not saying we all need to agree, let's just keep it to a civil roaring. *grin*

Put the nice china away and break out the paper plates. Put a tarp down. This is why we can't have nice things.

As far as desserts go, it's simple: Pie is awesome. Ice cream is awesome. Soft cookies are awesome. Yeast donuts are awesome. Cake is not quite awesome but still quite good, as are its cousins the cake donuts. Hard cookies are pretty good, though you have to bring Thin Mints to get the most out of that faction. The only dessert minion that really sucks is rhubarb pie.

Not to derail this entirely off topic thread any further but I just want to state that I think Batman is OP

Next person to say that hero's name along with the words "prep time" deserves to have nothing but rhubarb pie on their dessert tray for eternity.

Wow is the game really this imbalanced? I'm just starting up again after my group abandoned Malifaux for the seemingly more balanced Warmachine. =/

It won't be that bad if you're not concerned about being God King of All Malifaux Tournaments :Rat_Sitting: Unless you're going to Gencon, Adepticon, or apparently any tournament on UK soil, don't worry too much about it. Play who you want with two notable exceptions:

Hamelin has almost no weaknesses, as far as I can see anyway- he will be much tougher to beat than average, assuming average player skill. Though in my arrogant opinion you should freely mock any Hamelin player who complains about anything beyond their bad luck with the deck.

Molly...poor, sweet Molly. Such an awesome character and a cute model to boot, but don't play her as a Master. She will likely be better once either more Horrors or Belles come out or the game is reworked, but right now she is extremely limited by what she can hire.

[ravenborne]

It won't be that bad if you're not concerned about being God King of All Malifaux Tournaments :Rat_Sitting: Unless you're going to Gencon, Adepticon, or apparently any tournament on UK soil, don't worry too much about it.

Yeah, two of my favorite and most commonly played Masters are apparently on the "Tier 5" list. I have lot of fun with the game, but I really don't base my enjoyment of Malifaux off of winning, and I can't say that about many other games.

[Serigala]

Though in my arrogant opinion you should freely mock any Hamelin player who complains about anything beyond their bad luck with the deck.

What about incompetence?

[Dustcrusher]

Ravenborne, if you're the worst Malifaux player in Atlanta, we should play when I come down there next. We'll see who's really the worst *grin*

And to give you another idea of how local meta and player level/vibe can change things, I play Nicodem, Rasputina, Lady Justice, Seamus, and (soon) the Viktorias. Nicodem is rated very poorly by most of the expert players here, yet in my store people are afraid of him. Even the Hamelin player thinks he's no pushover (and that is a bad, bad matchup for Nico).

[Math Mathonwy]

Nice! I think I glazed over that one. Do you and Calmdown go to the same debate club? I suppose next I'll be a "Rabid Fanboy"?

It's an automatic defensive reaction. I see it a lot.

*Searches previous posts* ... sorry. Can't find where I claimed "perfect balance"! Linky please?

Here you go:

Mostly, yes.

Also not sure what join date has to do with anything.

So you were around during the beginning stages of book one? OK.

IMO, playing toy soldiers and having strong opinions on the internet aren't necessarily linked.

Non sequitor.

Though you did get me there - I don't play in tournaments. I'd put that down to the fact I'm running them though, and I understand winning ones own event is frowned upon.

So you don't have a very wide playing experience?

Finally, since this place for some reason thinks it good form to post something utterly random: aboogawooga-ooga-booga. Pies and canary birds and puppies! Yay! Flowers and beer and tiny tiny kittens.

[nilus]

Finally, since this place for some reason thinks it good form to post something utterly random: aboogawooga-ooga-booga. Pies and canary birds and puppies! Yay! Flowers and beer and tiny tiny kittens.

Tiny tiny kittens are OP. Flowers and beer worked way better before book 2 cuddled it.