Misaki Henchmen Status

[Omenbringer]

They would definately be one 50mm base.

I would also like to see a Kung Fu acupuncturist like Wong Fei-Hung from The Once Upon a Time in China trilogy. And the Shinigami Ryuk and Rem from the Deathnote franchise.

[Todd]

They would definately be one 50mm base.

I would also like to see a Kung Fu acupuncturist like Wong Fei-Hung from The Once Upon a Time in China trilogy. And the Shinigami Ryuk and Rem from the Deathnote franchise.

Haven't seen those, but I've heard good things. There's a character named Tesshu in Tenchu: Wrath of Heaven that kills with acupuncture needles. Village doctor by day, assassin by night. His stealth kill cut scenes are ridiculous (you can probably find them on youtube). You are basically shown an x-ray of the enemies insides as Tesshu breaks, snaps, rearranges, or inserts needles into them.

[Omenbringer]

I haven't seen that one but it sounds pretty neat. The character I was talking about (Wong Fei Hung) sounds similar but primarily used his acupuncture/ presure point skills to imobilize (he was mainly a doctor that sought to introduce traditional Eastern Medicine to the Western World).

Of course the "Tribute" model I would most like to see is one to the great Ip Man (Bruce Lee's teacher). That would be absolutely epic!

P.S. I am pretty confident that the next book will have a lot more "Eastern Inspired" characters in it and Misaki is a no-brainer for promotion (Notice the hint in the Ten Thunders Brothers story entry, the Three Kingdoms do have their own lesser portal into Malifaux).

[FlammenKrieger]

Just personally, I love the game how it is. I would hate for it to become a mass-scale warfare game. It's not in the nature of the story. I think have 100 SS brawls is enough for people who want to play bigger.

It's nice not having to spend all day on one game, and the problem with re-balancing all the time is that the game becomes more and more broken. I think people have to realise that every model is worth its points value, just simply what you use it for and if you know how.

If we keep complaining about very aesthetic issues and very minor grumbles, we will ruin Malifaux like they ruined 40K. We should be happy with how well everything is going as it is.

[Omenbringer]

For the record, 100 SS Brawls are "Mass-scale warfare games", with absolutely no balance, and would take forever to actually play.

The game really does work best at around 30-35 SS scraps.

[SpiralngCadavr]

Just personally, I love the game how it is. I would hate for it to become a mass-scale warfare game. It's not in the nature of the story. I think have 100 SS brawls is enough for people who want to play bigger.

It's nice not having to spend all day on one game, and the problem with re-balancing all the time is that the game becomes more and more broken. I think people have to realise that every model is worth its points value, just simply what you use it for and if you know how.

If we keep complaining about very aesthetic issues and very minor grumbles, we will ruin Malifaux like they ruined 40K. We should be happy with how well everything is going as it is.

QFT.

I can't imagine Malifaux falling to that, but I'd have said the same about Warmachine as recently as 5 years ago, so I've certainly been proven wrong before. While I'd like Malifaux to get a second edition with a few less or more standardized rules, I'd be happier with a flawed but interesting game over a perfect (rules) game without a soul.

Personally, I think that a few outcasts and Kirai's theme is plenty of flavor without radically altering the world, and the idea of a massive influx of asian-themed pieces doesn't appeal to me.

[Omenbringer]

I can't imagine Malifaux falling to that, but I'd have said the same about Warmachine as recently as 5 years ago, so I've certainly been proven wrong before.

You and me both.

[SpiralngCadavr]

You and me both.

Kinda' stings, don't it? :/

[Todd]

I think people have to realise that every model is worth its points value, just simply what you use it for and if you know how.

Every time I see this sentiment expressed on the forum I can't help but imagine the Malifaux Child sitting all by himself crying.

Less balance/game size/Warmachine used to be better (it was) discussion, and more Misaki/Kung-Fu/Ninja awesomeness discussion please.

[FlammenKrieger]

Personally, I think that a few outcasts and Kirai's theme is plenty of flavor without radically altering the world, and the idea of a massive influx of asian-themed pieces doesn't appeal to me.

I agree with this. I think Misake has her place as an Outcast as the most recent narrative about her states that she is really trying to break away from the Ten Thunders, so still an Outcast none the less. On a different note, still my favourite faction.

I think soulful, and a less-than-perfect game are what we need Malifaux to stay as. That way there are still tricks but then again, isn't the reason we play is to beat those 'combos' and make out own.

I like to use a 40K reference, "Why do we play if not to kill Space Marines?"

[SteamHammer]

I think there are several inevitabilities in skirmish games

1. A skirmish game will evolve into a full fledged Army game (by continually adding models to existing factions)
   
2. A skirmish game continually introduces new factions increasing possibilities while limiting game swell (keeping it a skirmish game)
   
3. A skirmish game just stops adding things to prevent swell and power creep (in which it usually fades away)

I'd hate to see any of these happen so I suggest:

4. Start over in a different place.

I'm sure the fluff has mentioned another large breach in the Three Kingdoms so once the current location/events have run the course Wyrd start over with another breach that goes to the other side of the Malifaux world too. Same rules as the current set up so people can always play Masters from different settings against each other.

Rather than primarily Western with some Eastern models you now get the reverse. Instead of the Guild you get the Kingdoms' authorities.

[CN the Logos]

I very much doubt that Malifaux will become a full wargame, on account of its rules being too focused on the individual model to accommodate that level of play. I generally play 40SS games; those take me around two hours and generally consist of ten models or less with the masters I run. While an "Apocalypse" variant for Malifaux might be an interesting experiment for someone with an entire weekend free, I can't see it becoming the dominant format for Malifaux without a major shift in the rules; to the point where the resulting game wouldn't actually be Malifaux anymore.

On topic: Can I go on record as saying that creating entirely new factions with the themes of "stereotypes from [insert culture]" is a terrible, awful idea, and would totally cause me to stop buying Malifaux? Because it's a terrible, awful idea, and would totally cause me to stop buying Malifaux. I can just about tolerate the story writers' inexplicable decision to abandon "low-key power struggles for control of a valuable power source in a grim, gritty steampunk fantasy world" in favor of "generic Lovecraft knockoff #51782." Mostly because it doesn't affect the way the models look or play and the actual characters and setting are compelling despite that. Creating entire factions of "these guys are Japanese/Russian/African!" however, would carry over into the look of the models and the gameplay in addition to being pretty offensive.

I could, in theory, get behind a Ten Thunder Brothers Outcast subfaction, although I'm not sure what it would consist of aside from "Mercenaries, but vaguely Japanese!" As long as it can be done in an interesting way and we can avoid magical ninja who wear bright orange prison jumpsuits, I'll be happy.

[Dustcrusher]

I'd hate to see any of these happen so I suggest:

4. Start over in a different place.

I'm sure the fluff has mentioned another large breach in the Three Kingdoms so once the current location/events have run the course Wyrd start over with another breach that goes to the other side of the Malifaux world too. Same rules as the current set up so people can always play Masters from different settings against each other.

Rather than primarily Western with some Eastern models you now get the reverse. Instead of the Guild you get the Kingdoms' authorities.

I've even come up with a name for it- Malifaux: Earthside.

While an "Apocalypse" variant for Malifaux might be an interesting experiment for someone with an entire weekend free, I can't see it becoming the dominant format for Malifaux without a major shift in the rules; to the point where the resulting game wouldn't actually be Malifaux anymore.

I think this would be fine- a variant for folks with tons of models that want to be able to field the entire lot in one game. It should stay that way- an option.

On topic: Can I go on record as saying that creating entirely new factions with the themes of "stereotypes from [insert culture]" is a terrible, awful idea, and would totally cause me to stop buying Malifaux? Because it's a terrible, awful idea, and would totally cause me to stop buying Malifaux.

I agree for the most part. Character tropes on the other hand wouldn't be so bad- a Liu Bei/Guan Yu/Zhang Fei master/henchman crew could be a lot of fun if written right.

[knoerzer]

So reading through this and all the ideas of a new Henchmen that I saw, but the only thing I could think of (and sorry I haven't read the third book yet so if I missed something in the story please forgive me, waiting on dad to finish it, then I can read it) was making a Henchmen for the Outcasts and make it Misaki's Father? Make him like Misaki and give them synergy. Also in his box they could include 3 or 4 models that are like ninjas? What do you guys think of that?

[Jewomie]

if written right.

Yep... there is where i would be afraid of seeing these kinds of crews show up.

It's not that i don't trust Wyrd to release a crew that is fun, stylistic, and well formed... they have proven to me time and time again that they will take an odd idea, and make a cool crew out of it... the show girls and Hoffman both good examples of this... the showgirls seemed at first to be a weak and unreliable crew that wouldn't offer much... now they are considered one of the better crews (if you buy in to the rating system... i don't... but there's no denying they are well written and unique) Hoffman as well had me worried...i thought the guild was going to get it's own copy of Ramos... i was wrong there to. and happy to admit it i might add.

My problem is not with the idea of Misaki being a henchamn or even a master, with a ninja/asian/tenthunders/steriotype twist on it. my fear is that we'll just end up with a copy of Von Schill with hiring restrictions, and that has little appeal to me. I feel the same way about "Asian Themed" factions... they will all have the same feel to them, only a different race.

Someone on here mentioned that malifaux is already the english (or whatever) and we need to explore the asian world as they have their own portal... i can get behind this idea... but not for 5 new factions. or even one for that matter. we have enough. if more masters (and ideally more henchman) are added to the game, we'll see certain aspects of these so called "balance issues" start to go away... if we add new factions, the current ones will still have the issues people see, and the new ones will serve to generate more compatability issues... then they'll split and we'll have warmahordes v2... and i wouldn't like to see that at all... not at all...

Plus... the world of Malifaux is already pretty diverse... it's not like we have a solid model count of only white men *cough-space marines-cough* If they focus on a single ethnic group, we're just going to get a bunch of steriotypes and we wont get the well thought out awesome characters they've given us so far.

if i had to pick an idea someone else has posted, i could really get behind having Ten Thunders special forces available to each faction... with corisponding abilities, and a henchman capable of hireing them all together in a single crew... kind of like Collodi will be hiring effigies out of all the factions, but each faction will have access to their unique one when they want it. I don't remember who posted this, but it seemed the best way (in my opinon) of breaking up the ten thunders special forces and keeping them from being just another Von Schill crew.

[Todd]

I really wouldn't worry about Wyrd ruining the game with cultural stereotypes. I don't think anyone is asking for entire factions based on specific cultures/countries.

I can't speak for everyone else, but when I express a desire for something stereotypical like "ninjas" I don't just mean plain old history as we know it ninjas. I respect Wyrd enough to assume they would create something comparable that references our idea of a ninja, but at the same time interesting and unique to the world they've created. Take the opposing clan and its boss from Twisting Fates, very unique, but at the same time very eastern in feel/design.

This game is built on stereotypes, or at least the mish-mashing together of them. Personally, I'd like even more obvious cultural/historical references in the game, whether its fashion, race, or whatever. I like being reminded that these individuals come from earth, maybe not our earth, but earth none the less. Its these references to the world that we know that make the differences Wyrd throws in all the more interesting. Otherwise, you've just got another ambiguous steampunk fantasy world.

[BlueStar86]

Technically they already have ninjas anyway, Collette and her related figures are definitely ninjas if I ever saw them, and that's including the weird "I'm here, but I'm not here" nonsense.

[Jewomie]

Yes I am talking about completely new Eastern inspired factions with their own feel (Three Kingdoms, Persian Empire, Czarist Russia, etc).

I think there are several inevitabilities in skirmish games

1. A skirmish game will evolve into a full fledged Army game (by continually adding models to existing factions)
   
2. A skirmish game continually introduces new factions increasing possibilities while limiting game swell (keeping it a skirmish game)
   
3. A skirmish game just stops adding things to prevent swell and power creep (in which it usually fades away)

Continually trying to shoehorn Eastern inspired models into the existing factions just doesn't really make sense, unless they are all going to be Outcast crews. For example why would the three kingdoms work with either the Guild or Arcanists (much less Never Born or Ressers) on a consistant basis (eventaully they are going to set out on their own)? Additionally, what is stopping another portal from the Three Kingdoms (or Deepest Darkest Africa or anywhere else for that matter) opening into Malifaux (if one hasn't already)?

What I am hoping for is more factions that introduce more posiibilities for game play without having to worry so much about interactions with existing models and swell (requiring tons of hiring restrictions on each one for balancing).

Malifaux is a big place and still largely unexplored so who knows what lies over the mountains or just around the river bend. Perhaps the reason the Three Kingdoms hasn't been more prominent in Malifaux is because they have their own way in.

For the record I will quit playing if they introduce Robot Elves with Giant Codpieces!

---------- Post added at 04:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:17 PM ----------

How many more models can be added to the existing factions before they all just blend together? Closing them out preserves their identity.

Keep in mind, you dont have to close them out completely (which with some Masters is difficult to do anyway) there is always the possibility of adding new blood down the road (via Mercs, or the occasional new faction model to simulate story progression, or a model that is allowed to be hired by a specific Master,etc.).

I really wouldn't worry about Wyrd ruining the game with cultural stereotypes. I don't think anyone is asking for entire factions based on specific cultures/countries.

I can't speak for everyone else, but when I express a desire for something stereotypical like "ninjas" I don't just mean plain old history as we know it ninjas. I respect Wyrd enough to assume they would create something comparable that references our idea of a ninja, but at the same time interesting and unique to the world they've created. Take the opposing clan and its boss from Twisting Fates, very unique, but at the same time very eastern in feel/design.

This game is built on stereotypes, or at least the mish-mashing together of them. Personally, I'd like even more obvious cultural/historical references in the game, whether its fashion, race, or whatever. I like being reminded that these individuals come from earth, maybe not our earth, but earth none the less. Its these references to the world that we know that make the differences Wyrd throws in all the more interesting. Otherwise, you've just got another ambiguous steampunk fantasy world.

Todd... there IS a comment on here about adding entirely new factioins based on a single ethnic group... you even quoted Omenbringer on page 2 talking about it. Hence my comment.

Also, if you want Ninja's with a wyrd twist, get the ten thunders brothers. That seems exactly what you're talking about.

[Omenbringer]

Also, if you want Ninja's with a wyrd twist, get the ten thunders brothers. That seems exactly what you're talking about.

Speaking of the Ten Thunders Brothers have you ever read their fluff in the book?

[CN the Logos]

I've even come up with a name for it- Malifaux: Earthside.

Except that the magic is going away on Earth, and soulstones are rare there (or at least much harder to come by) which would mean there would have to be a shift from "The Ice Cthulhu cometh" back to "Low Fantasy Gothic Horror Western Steampunk."

...I approve.

I think this would be fine- a variant for folks with tons of models that want to be able to field the entire lot in one game. It should stay that way- an option.

And make no mistake, I wouldn't want it to become the main form of play, but having it around to play with every so often would be fun.

Off the top of my head: Something like 150SS, two or three Masters. The two required Masters must be compatible as normal for a Brawl, but the third Master can be hired from any faction, subject to normal hiring restrictions. The third Master can also be a Henchman from another faction (you get the 10SS from not hiring an additional Master as in a normal Brawl and then may use it to grab any Henchman), but in that case you can only use it to hire models you could normally hire with that Henchman. In the case you decide to hire a third Leader from outside the normal hiring restrictions, you may use up to one-third of your total soulstones to hire models normally available to it. Rare numbers are tripled rather than doubled. Max SS cache is 12.

I make no claims that this would be balanced or easy to play, but it might be fun to try. Any other suggestions?

I agree for the most part. Character tropes on the other hand wouldn't be so bad- a Liu Bei/Guan Yu/Zhang Fei master/henchman crew could be a lot of fun if written right.

Malifaux is set like 1800 years too late for it, but the Romance of the Three Kingdoms WITH GUNS could be entertaining.

I really wouldn't worry about Wyrd ruining the game with cultural stereotypes. I don't think anyone is asking for entire factions based on specific cultures/countries.

I can't speak for everyone else, but when I express a desire for something stereotypical like "ninjas" I don't just mean plain old history as we know it ninjas. I respect Wyrd enough to assume they would create something comparable that references our idea of a ninja, but at the same time interesting and unique to the world they've created. Take the opposing clan and its boss from Twisting Fates, very unique, but at the same time very eastern in feel/design.

Actually, if Wyrd were to create "plain old history as we know it ninja," that is to say, ordinary guerrilla fighters capable of damaging superior forces with guile, disguises and improvised weaponry rather than relying on Weeaboo Fightan Magicks , I'd respect them tremendously. I don't think I've ever seen that done, to be be honest.

...And if my description of Naruto struck you as a "history as we know it ninja" the problem is worse than I thought.

This game is built on stereotypes, or at least the mish-mashing together of them. Personally, I'd like even more obvious cultural/historical references in the game, whether its fashion, race, or whatever. I like being reminded that these individuals come from earth, maybe not our earth, but earth none the less. Its these references to the world that we know that make the differences Wyrd throws in all the more interesting. Otherwise, you've just got another ambiguous steampunk fantasy world.

See, maybe I didn't clarify what I was saying enough, but I don't mind the idea of Asian, Black, and/or Russian people showing up in the game. I'm not that big on political correctness, either; I don't mind the occasional cultural trope showing up. We've got evil cowboys, why not Yakuza?

My reservations come from the fact that I don't want to see factions where those cultural stereotypes are the defining features. The Guild are more than just gunslingers, and if the Three Kingdoms show up in greater numbers they should be more than just samurai, ninja, and old wise martial arts masters. All those things can and should show up, but they shouldn't be the whole thing.

Edited March 19, 2012 by CN the Logos

[SpiralngCadavr]

Not much of a fan of large games: I don't think it would fit, and, the larger your game size, the larger the deficit in model count, potentially: for instance, 150SS worth of a nice theme-y Zoraida/gremlin horde, vs. 150 SS worth of mostly character pieces.

Also, I moved from 40k to WM when model counts made the game boring, and moved down again to Malifaux when WM started emphasizing larger games. If you want house rules for giant games, more power to you, but I'd rather not have Wyrd devote their resources to something most players won't have the time for, nor potentially the models for, which, as far as I've read, doesn't fit the setting, either.

[CN the Logos]

Not much of a fan of large games: I don't think it would fit, and, the larger your game size, the larger the deficit in model count, potentially: for instance, 150SS worth of a nice theme-y Zoraida/gremlin horde, vs. 150 SS worth of mostly character pieces.

Also, I moved from 40k to WM when model counts made the game boring, and moved down again to Malifaux when WM started emphasizing larger games. If you want house rules for giant games, more power to you, but I'd rather not have Wyrd devote their resources to something most players won't have the time for, nor potentially the models for, which, as far as I've read, doesn't fit the setting, either.

Oh, I had no intention of suggesting the above as anything more than potentially hilarious set of house rules. No need to fear someone taking away your Malifaux. As I mentioned before, the way the game works with its model by model activation and cards flipped for each duel means that massive games like the one I described would be nigh-impossible to do in a tournament or even at a LGS in one afternoon. I kinda figured it'd be something to do at home over the course of a couple of days, if you're bored, have some Malifaux playing friends nearby, and want to use your whole collection. Although the creation of a format where gremlins become the dominant subfaction without the need for skeeter-related shenanigans amuses me to no end.

So how do you feel about kung-fu, wire-fu, dragons, and Yakuza?

[SpiralngCadavr]

Ah, got it.

re: your Q,

kung-fu is fine, though most of the time, mini companies do a pretty poor job capturing the look-- fighting styles with weapons are easier to execute. Malifaux has had better results with positioning/stealth/psychology/etc. than most companies ("slap a high defense or supernatural save on it and call it done" seems the usual MO), so they're one of the most capable of pulling it off, I think.

Dunno what wire-fu refers to... "Crouching Tiger"-esque stylized martial arts?

Dragons- if done right, sure. Wyrd's beasties are pretty good, so it seems possible, and there's enough supernatural stuff for small dragon creatures not to be out of place.

Yakuza- is that time-appropriate? Dunno when that started being a thing. I think a crime syndicate could be pretty cool, though I think it would be cooler if linked with the arcanists than outcasts, as it thematically feels more appropriate. (Take this with a grain of salt, I don't have the third book, so I don't know what's developed with Misaki/Thunders)

[Omenbringer]

Yakuza- is that time-appropriate? Dunno when that started being a thing. I think a crime syndicate could be pretty cool, though I think it would be cooler if linked with the arcanists than outcasts, as it thematically feels more appropriate. (Take this with a grain of salt, I don't have the third book, so I don't know what's developed with Misaki/Thunders)

The Ten Thunders Brothers are a crime syndicate very much like the Yakuza (Misaki's fluff from the first book states that pretty clearly).

[CN the Logos]

kung-fu is fine, though most of the time, mini companies do a pretty poor job capturing the look-- fighting styles with weapons are easier to execute. Malifaux has had better results with positioning/stealth/psychology/etc. than most companies ("slap a high defense or supernatural save on it and call it done" seems the usual MO), so they're one of the most capable of pulling it off, I think.

Dunno what wire-fu refers to... "Crouching Tiger"-esque stylized martial arts?

Yeah. That particular brand of movie martial arts that can only happen with the use of wires, a harness, and probably a bit of CGI. People jumping thirty feet to kick the bad guy in the face, that sort of thing. One supplement for D&D 3.5 that allowed nonmagical characters to perform feats like this at higher levels was given the nickname "Book of Weeaboo Fightan Magic" by detractors as a result... I personally thought the sourcebook was great (with the exception of a couple fantasy specific styles that actually incorporate magic into them, all the crazy stuff is only accessible once characters have actually become more skilled than real life humans could ever be, so having my fighter-type dude cut someone in half so neatly that they don't realize it until they try to step forward and fall apart or having an unarmed martial artist make someone's head explode by punching them is the sternum is totally cool with me), but still like the name Weeaboo Fightan Magic to describe the style. It's evocative and covers techniques that don't necessarily require wires but still only exist inside that genre, like ki blasts and pressure point strikes that make your heart explode after a ten second countdown or five steps.

Dragons- if done right, sure. Wyrd's beasties are pretty good, so it seems possible, and there's enough supernatural stuff for small dragon creatures not to be out of place.

The Senshin look fairly dragon-esque,and I've always liked the Asian "sentient avatar of nature's fury and/or benevolence" depiction of dragons more than the traditional European "really big lizard with fire and/or poison" dragon. Although European dragons can be done well, and splitting the difference between the types by depicting the European-style beasties with more intelligence (as has become popular since Tolkien did it) can result in some interesting creatures.

I say this because I'd like to see an honest to God long added to Kirai's spirit legions. If we're adding Eastern favor to Malifaux, there is just too much potential awesome there to pass up.

Yakuza- is that time-appropriate? Dunno when that started being a thing. I think a crime syndicate could be pretty cool, though I think it would be cooler if linked with the arcanists than outcasts, as it thematically feels more appropriate. (Take this with a grain of salt, I don't have the third book, so I don't know what's developed with Misaki/Thunders)

Wiki says the largest Yakuza group currently around was started in 1915, but the majority of Yakuza group members trace their heritage to people who were outcasts in feudal Japanese society and ended up banding together to compensate for this social discrimination. In any case though, it's not like the idea of a crime syndicate is tied to a specific time or place, and "yakuza" is just a Japanese word for gangster. The real life Von Schill died in 1809, ninety-four years before the part of the Malifaux timeline that the game takes place during, and no one complains about him being around because he's a badass. Although my theory is that Malifaux Von Schill is a descendent of Ferdinand Von Schill, whose rebellion against Napoleon apparently went better in the Malifauxverse, but that's a tangent.

Anyway, I'm actually still surprised that they're expanding on the Ten Thunder Brothers thing at all, I thought it was just another throw-away bit of fluff for a named Book One mercenary. I'm actually more curious about the circumstances surrounding Killjoy's death and hatred of the other Neverborn (and Jack Daw, but he seems to be important to the storyline so I'm pretty sure he'll be addressed eventually). But hey, gangsters are cool as for as potential subfactions go. I won't complain. Much.

Edited March 17, 2012 by CN the Logos