Breaking Gremlins

[Spiku]

Indeed, but then the piglet would need to be within 2" of the mosquito now, which means you are

Spending (all) +(all) to get a mosquito

Spending (all) +(all) +(1) Sooey! To get a mosquito.

Spending (all) +(all) +(1) Stik em' with a 5+ of masks and requiring 4Wd+ on the piglet

This is all at a -1ss value for the now perma insignificant model you get.

I mean, you'd never do it on 1st turn, which is the only time you will garuntee the piglet being next to the mozzie without any activations or initiative control, because you'd just takea Bayou for 2ss and +card draws to get more chance at suits you want/high cards for summons.

It's not economic, and in practice it would eliminate another recycle option in most situations, or mean you paying the rather massive price.

[Bigkid]

But it does stop the abuse.

Whilst still keeping Larva as a viable option with Bayou Gremlins (Piglets are Insignificant after all).

Or, Larva could just not be allowed on Vermin which would solve everything...*wink*

[Spiku]

As much as it stops the abuse, it cripples a swathe of play options; and just because it can still be used on Bayou Gremlins (only, because all other significant models are 4+ss, or your master) is no real benefit; you still have the massive activation costs to get a 2ss totem out, and all of what I have listed above; it is not a suitable option, as it is crippling.

Now not working on vermin? That's far, FAR better ;3 But kind of sits on Malifaux Rats being taken. I believe we have finally distilled down to: What's stopping it just being: target non-mosquito model, or non-totem? That way it doesn't fool about with any of the current legitimate interactions on the board.

See, if we only had this discussion back when book 1 was out, we could have had mosquitoes be gremlins, with Survival of the Fittest and Larva both have "non-mosquito", so slop haulers could heal up our mozzies >=D

[Bigkid]

See, if we only had this discussion back when book 1 was out, we could have had mosquitoes be gremlins, with Survival of the Fittest and Larva both have "non-mosquito", so slop haulers could heal up our mozzies >=D

Hindsight-faux!!

[Omenbringer]

Unless you are quoting some other post I have made, Omen, the flying pigs refers to Von Schill; who can fly and sit on top of buildings

Apologies, an unfortunate edit of your post.

This is exactly the same what I have come up with as a possible fix. Simply there is no need for this kind of loopholes in the game. I wonder why didn't they fix that ages ago...

Several forumites have been trying to correct this problem for awhile, however since it was a universally shunned tactic it hadn't seen much thread time (until its proliferation on the tourney scene recently).

I believe we have finally distilled down to: What's stopping it just being: target non-mosquito model, or non-totem? That way it doesn't fool about with any of the current legitimate interactions on the board.

This was a fix that was propsed a long time ago, it may be wating for the next batch of updates.

See, if we only had this discussion back when book 1 was out, we could have had mosquitoes be gremlins, with Survival of the Fittest and Larva both have "non-mosquito", so slop haulers could heal up our mozzies >=D

There was a lot of discussion back in Book 1 about possible Skeeter Fixes, not all of it was accepted.

Additionally, allowing Skeeters to be easily healed by things like the Slop Hauler (and to a lesser extent Rats which I am pretty sure was unintended) definately ups there power level since casting A Gremlins Luck becomes a whole lot more powerful and repeatable.

just because it can still be used on Bayou Gremlins (only, because all other significant models are 4+ss, or your master) is no real benefit; you still have the massive activation costs to get a 2ss totem out, and all of what I have listed above; it is not a suitable option, as it is crippling.

I wouldn't say it is really that crippling or has no benefit since you can still get 2 Control Cards if performing this within the range of Survival of the Fittest, a whole new skeeter to activate, and another use of one of Some'rs spells. All that seems a pretty balanced trade for the Sacrifice of a 2 SS model (that is also easily replaceable in game).

[Spiku]

I assure you the comment regarding Mosquitoes re-gaining access to mass heal options was entirely frivolous. I do not consider them being Gremlins to be positive in any way entirely because of the access to heal options, Ophelia linking, truffles, and really anything else that would provide the Mosquitoes more options than they presently have. I fully accept that it is a topic that has been discussed previously, and my point was that this discussion had distilled down to that suggestion, which is the most obvious resolution, not that the entire history of this matter has culminated in us breaking the code ;3

However, the comment regarding benefits; you have listed the benefits that already exist. My point was that "Still being able to do something we could already" is not of merit, as we should not be limited to just that option compared to what we have presently, to close an abusive loop. Clearly I do not think there is no benefit to sacrificing Bayou Gremlins, otherwise I wouldn't constantly suggest whenever it comes up that you take/produce Bayou Gremlins for producing Mosquitoes. I do not accept that "significant only" is a positive step for Mosquitoes, and I do not consider it a "benefit" that I could still do what I can already do with Bayou's, but not with piglets (or rats I guess), should I so wish. Crippling is specifically to impair the function of, and I consider this to impair the valid uses available to Mosquitoes for no real merit that couldn't be easier achieved simply by stating you cannot larva Mosquitoes.

[Omenbringer]

achieved simply by stating you cannot larva Mosquitoes.

I understand where your coming from Spiku and agree with the solution above however, the point of the last post was to show that there is still plenty of benefit even when limiting it to only Gremlins.

Taken to the extreme, 1 skeeter begining the Larva chain with 3 Bayou Gremlins (in range of Survival of the fittest) results in 6 additional control cards, up to 7 independant model activations (3 Bayou Gremlins, initial skeeter, 3 new skeeters), and an additional casting opprotuntity for Some'r (via Magical Extension from the Skeeter) with a net gain/loss of 0 SS (since all the saced gremlins are replaced by the same SS value skeeters). That is still plenty potent and can swing a game.

Probably an unpopular opinion but I dont think sacing Friendly models should be a common practice in the game (Drain Souls should be a once per game action and Get your Bro shouldn't be able to be cast if it would kill the Bayou Gremlin, but those are arguments for another thread).

[Spiku]

I don't really understand the comment here; you are outlining the bread and butter Mosquito spawn start. You have very specifically discussed this with me before as I have said I start like this, including having the final Mosquito ready to cast Sooey!. You were of the opinion that 2 mozzie start is more suitable. You can only know that I do exactly what you have described, and I have to say it really does feel as though you are endeavouring in an exercise of redundancy.

Being able to do something that we can already do, at the cost of something else we can do, is not beneficial. Especially not when the abusive loop can be closed in a way that costs us nothing. This can also be expressed as; X is bad. We have X, Y and Z. Changing it so we only have Z is not beneficial to us, it is detrimental as we have lost Y.

There is no reason that we should lose access to sacrificing piglets for Mosquitoes if we so wish. Were there a reason to change rats as they currently are, we wouldn't have Resser lists starting with dogs~

I am concerned that perhaps you are not following my use of cripple, I use a rather dictionary definition, much like I use broken to refer to things like the infinite loop, rather than things I consider too powerful.

I look forward to the thread you elude to being created

[tadaka]

Eh am i the only one who thinks while useful infinite activations of skeeters is not realy that big of a deal? Does it realy make grimlins 2 good? Game is full of tricks wyrd never planed for.

[Spiku]

Tadaka: In a tournament situation, you have a time limit. If I have more victory points than you, I can now take infinite turns and let the time run out. That would be grimlins 2 good

It is not about Gremlins being "too good" however, and I think that is a misunderstanding that has been expressed before. I don't think anyone has said that Gremlins are best. It is about the existence of the abuse and the correction of it being good design philosophy. Let me suggest some things to you:

On turn 1, using infinite activations, I could get two casts of Pull My Finger off on you (possibly 3 with McTavish and a specific activation/placement/card). A 3" pulse with no resist doing 2Dg to everything.

normally the furthest you could cast that on turn 1 would be 10" from your deployment position +3" for the aoe.

Against Von Schill; not a problem. Gremlins; who cares? Against Seishin? Ouch.

The real problem is essentially that no matter where you are on the table, you are in danger of Pull My Finger. Equally, I can set up my mosquitoes to be ready to just in and harass, or have them in melee range of your shooting models, or surrounding masters. It is not the intent of the model.

[tadaka]

Eh i would wrap point 1 in to being like any other slow play. If some one was doing it i would just call over the judge. That alone would get them moving. For the rest i think if it was not intended to let you loop them they would have been changed with the card graw trick. That was a true issue. Not saying your wrong about the issue just dont think its realy all that bad. Personaly i love all the trick plays in malifaux by combining the right models. Granted this is a simple one but still.

[Omenbringer]

There is no reason that we should lose access to sacrificing piglets for Mosquitoes if we so wish.

As I said I support the recommendation to just limiting Larva to any non-Skeeter (would rather it be non-vermin though to avoid the common practice of only hiring rats to off set a balancing point for the skeeters).

However I also think that losing the ability to Larva anything other than Gremlins (Bayou or otherwise) wouldn't really matter that much since most times your not going to Larva a Piglet (or more expensive Gremlin model) if a Bayou is available anyway. Larvaing (is that a word?) a Piglet is a definate loss since you wont get the control cards from Survival of the Fittest, lose a SS worth of model value, an AP from Reckless and to a lesser extent the increased Damage potential of the Pigs.

"In the Words of the Most Interesting Man in the World"

(just in case you dont get the reference click here

)

I rarely use Larva as it is (since I dont consider it a neccesary ability for anything other than replacing the occasional loss) but when I do, a Bayou Gremlin is my target virtually everytime (because of the above and their ability to be replaced easily by Some'r).

I look forward to the thread you elude to being created

That is a thread best started in another part of the forum.

---------- Post added at 11:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:23 PM ----------

Tadaka: In a tournament situation, you have a time limit. If I have more victory points than you, I can now take infinite turns and let the time run out. That would be grimlins 2 good...The real problem is essentially that no matter where you are on the table, you are in danger of Pull My Finger. Equally, I can set up my mosquitoes to be ready to just in and harass, or have them in melee range of your shooting models, or surrounding masters. It is not the intent of the model.

Stalling in the competitive environment is definately one of the major downsides, however there is also the guaranty of out activation which turns the game into Solitaire (It is a lot easier for gremlins to do their thing when they dont really have to worry about your interactions for the turn).

[Spiku]

I've eaten piglets on 1 health in my time; usually at the 3rd/4th turn point, where it is entirely possible that I am missing the meat for Bayou's and don't have the activations/suit spare for the Gremlinette to convert. Equally if a piglet is at 1 Wd, I will get more out of mosquito'ing it if they have all been worn down. It is situational, but it comes up with regularity as I tend to work my sausage hard. Sometimes more often than when I am looking at a hand of 4 or lower, and feel I might as well just turn my Bayou's into piglets. Of course, at present we are perfectly able to larva mosquitoes to "heal" them for slow. I tend also to find that if I am alpha stanking there are those occasions where to hit the optimum targets, I am hitting my mosquitoes with pull my finger after they have cast; easy to kill some with that and have one available for further summons, or resummons on the following turn. Piglets are always up field, for sure They're even more common with Swamp Gas... gosh darn that spell keeps forcing me to bring along my full piggie box.

I was aware that the thread would have to be made in another part of the forum. I simply look forward to it due to my views on the matter

And thank you for mentioning the activation wasting, foolish of me to let that one slip by unmentioned despite how much activation wasting goes in to every game of Gremlifaux.

Edited February 29, 2012 by Spiku

[Omenbringer]

Oh I definately agree there are situations where being able to use Larva on any available model is necessary or preferable, however my point is that most times a Bayou Gremlin (or any severely wounded Gremlin) is the better (and probably closer) target anyway so having it limited to just Gremlins wouldn't really impact that much (for me anyway).