Finnegan Posted February 27, 2012 Report Share Posted February 27, 2012 Hmmmm....so is it a 'broken mechanic' or a genuine tactic v's Chompy?*wink* I posit that any mechanic that allows you to win against the dreamer is broken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiku Posted February 27, 2012 Report Share Posted February 27, 2012 hand based terrain is broken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigkid Posted February 27, 2012 Report Share Posted February 27, 2012 hand based terrain is broken Dirty boy! :-P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harbinger Posted February 27, 2012 Report Share Posted February 27, 2012 Hmmmm....so is it a 'broken mechanic' or a genuine tactic v's Chompy?*wink* you had the same "unwarranted" thought too huh? I admit Im a bit biased; been a closet gremlin since the day laid eye on the Bayou Princess. But with things like Chompy, Kirai, Hamlin... out there, the pigapult (or anything green friendly) is getting so much attention thrown its way really seems puzzling. If I was to see something changed on a gremlin crew card before quite few others... Id have to go to the Dr for eye sprain from rolling them so hard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiku Posted February 27, 2012 Report Share Posted February 27, 2012 Just because there are things which are debatably more powerful, does not mean that we shouldn't attempt to balance out aspects of the portion of the faction we play. As we DO play these factions, I would imagine we are best poised to judge the effectiveness of what we use~ Before balancing, broken aspects should be fixed: things like hamelin and mosquito infinite options, for example. Pigapult making models insignificant until the draw phase is not -needed-, but none of us would find this inappropriate. A Cb of 5 would be nice considering that you have to sacrifice models to use it/kill your own models to hurt others, but I accept that Som'er's actions are used for summoning, and this is a very cheap model that makes further use of that crow and that would be a nasty Cb for a 24" no LoS blast model ;D Ophelia getting Wp5 would be nice to stop her being auto lose vs the Dreamer, but is not necessary given how flatly powerful she is. Dreamer bomb being toned down is something everyone would appreciate. However, you do have to remember that when someone picks Neverborn, and you say Outcast, the game is aiming to be balanced with that in mind. Hamelin with frame for murder on Nix maybe ;D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harbinger Posted February 28, 2012 Report Share Posted February 28, 2012 (edited) Everyone is free to have opinions, and I really think most of the player base for Mali has very close to same ones... whats best for the game. Im not saying there might not be some over the top shenanigans with the gremlins, nor saying those shenanigans might need to be looked at for balance reasons. I just think the most important thing is to put efforts to a priority lists. Top priority should be things like... Ophelia getting Wp5 would be nice to stop her being auto lose vs the Dreamer, but is not necessary given how flatly powerful she is. I totally disagree when there is a situation like that, that it is not necessary to fix. Now Im not saying the answer has to be by boosting Ophelia... maybe its taming Dreamer.. if I had all the answers Id be designing the game instead of paying for it. But a answer I do have is there should NEVER be auto loses. Thats where Id prefer to see efforts focused on. Whats the point of showing up at a tourney with XXX master if you know from start you will lose any match you get thrown against YYY? Competitive players are going to bypass those masters and go for the ones without a instant handicap. Take it to a smaller scale. Local store has say 5 Mali players. Joe is drawn towards gremlins. But he heard that gremlins dont have a chance of wining against Hamlin and Tim already has Hamlin as his only crew. Why pick gremlins as his crew if knows that means one less player he can ever play against and have fun? Yes you can throw out throw out you wont lose if other player doesnt know what hes doing; thats not a reason to ovelook the issue as that bad player can always get better. Nor is falling back on cries of "but some the funnest games Ive played I lost!" Hey we have all had those moments. But we need to think about the average person out there. Not someone that loves the game so much has great time even if lose 5 times in a row. (come on there cant be too many like me that will regularly showup with a crazy cat lady crew just because the hoarcats are too adorable to leave behind) There is nothing wrong with tough matches. There are going to be there, doubt possible to get rid of, and personally feel they add excitement to the game. But auto losses need to go. Id like to see all masters have a chance. Edited February 28, 2012 by harbinger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiku Posted February 28, 2012 Report Share Posted February 28, 2012 I've never lost to a hamelin player as Gremlins. Gives you a reason to buy McTavish. And if you feel that you shouldn't have to buy McTavish, then play a game where you don't have to pick models as suited to the factions you play against. Playing against outcasts? Take pigs. Give pigs reactivate: you can still claim jump vs Hamelin now thanks to "root around". Fighting Von Schill? Flying pigs can still get him with push attacks. Leveticus? Sooey! up to those Waifs. Gremlins? Either mirror match or your pigs get to eat Rami alive. Viktorias? They concede their house from here. But to discuss your point: you're not taking a master. You're taking a henchman. Try taking Molly as a leader against The Dreamer. The fact of the matter is the game is balanced around people making decisions on what they take to the fight, and that's how the game works. Masters are not made to fight all situations. If you lead with a henchman who is up against a faction with that, then you have to accept what you get. Refusing to play a faction because you've heard other people say that the master you've not played against can beat the master you haven't played doesn't make much sense. Especially given that vs Hamelin you can make him have no cards, you auto win in Slaughter, you can hunt down the stolen SUPER easy with mosquitoes, you've got manifest to remove insignificant, and McTavish has (0)Shrug Off to remove insignificant and synergises with pigs and mosquitoes. I don't play the game correctly, I play Gremlins, not outcast. I have to accept that there are scenarios I will be relying entirely mistakes my opponent makes, or having very lucky flips, because I am not playing Malifaux correctly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Posted February 28, 2012 Report Share Posted February 28, 2012 You guys work way too hard. I just cheat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiku Posted February 28, 2012 Report Share Posted February 28, 2012 I haven't met ukrocky yet so I don't know how to cheat =( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harbinger Posted February 28, 2012 Report Share Posted February 28, 2012 Sorry Spiku, I should of stated that was talking in abstracts and just tossing out miniature names not meaning exact matchups. If there is a Joe or Tim reading this Im sorry to you aswell, Im not determining which crew you should have to buy by using your names. Nor did I say I wouldnt play a master because of rumors I heard. People cry that Raspy is not competitive; that doesnt stop me from handing out stompins with her. Only thing I groan at when see hit the table when playing her is austringers. but we are taking average players not me... not you. And if you think people dont make choices based on "common beliefs" you need to spend more time on the internet. Either way, lets just disagree. As said before everyone allowed an opinion. I still stand behind mine that there is bigger fish to fry then the pigapult or mosquitoes. I think your missing the point I was making. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiku Posted February 28, 2012 Report Share Posted February 28, 2012 I think your missing the point I was making. I think the same of you, but I certainly wouldn't have said "let's just leave it at that" then ended my post with that sort of comment. It'd save responses like this one coming from being made =3 Your point was that there should be no auto losses in the game, and that it is a fundamental flaw in design for them to exist. Further, you were raising that because there are things worse, in your view, than the pigapult, that they should be looked at first. The game is not balanced for master to master or henchman to masters, it is balanced by factions. Tournaments should not be fixed master, as that's not how the game is designed. Just like they shouldn't be based on VPs because that gives good player vs noob a huge advantage over good player beats good player, and it is something that is being taken into account and changed as more games are hosted and organisers find what works best. The problem here is you are suggesting that the time spent going "That pigapult could probably do with being tweaked a tad" is actively cutting into changing bury, should they choose to, or toning down The Dreamer. Were it the case that say, only one change could be made per month, and someone placed the pigapult to the top of the stack, then certainly that would be a concern. But there exists no such priority in design like this. I'm not even saying it needs to be changed, or that it should or will, just that I can accept why it might. I certainly haven't said it is more of a priority. At any one time there are several different threads in game design; advancement of the story, designing new models, testing and tweaking of the things in book 3 that have yet to arrive (hence why cards are changed), and the interaction and mechanics that are on the way. This is alongside things such as the rules update and clarification, which is going to drop in one go. The very some document that intends to address as many of the issues as possible. I can assure you that such a document wont start and end with: Pigapult requires LoS. Given that we already know they are assessing and addressing, and the consideration of a mechanic that the game was built upon is want for change when there are already many models that make use of the interaction, I would not be surprised that whilst this is being worked on, many simpler things could be resolved. When I'm working on a major High Court case, I don't put all of my other cases on hold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harbinger Posted February 28, 2012 Report Share Posted February 28, 2012 I think the same of you, but I certainly wouldn't have said "let's just leave it at that" then ended my post with that sort of comment. It'd save responses like this one coming from being made =3 How in world did that make it through.... I had rethought my response and meant to back over it in the entirely. Teach me to hit <post> and leave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiku Posted February 28, 2012 Report Share Posted February 28, 2012 Oh. I'll go put the soap box away then =3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omenbringer Posted February 28, 2012 Report Share Posted February 28, 2012 (edited) Many of the posters here suggest that Gremlins are the best of the best. Broken, ubercompetitive, whatever. I can even accept that but without enough experience I have doubts and so I asked a simple question aimed to top quality Gremlin players. How do you deal with LCB that drops into your DZ in turn 1 and eats the most important minion faces? The answer was quite generic and that's why I asked for details. I personally dont think the Gremlins are broken when played as intended (no infinite Skeeter Activations), I do however think they are competitive in a lot of situations (and have for a very long time). As for overcoming LCB which is far from certain (in addition to what Spiku recommends), using things like Stuffed Piglets and replaceable Bayou Gremlins to insulate your more important models (and base Block LCB) goes a long way toward pulling the Dreamers teath. His 50mm base is a huge disadvantage against crews that can field lots of cheap (replaceable) models. A Pig-a-pult helps with retaliation after "Weathering the Storm". It is far from certain but a bit better chance than most crews get. No one has suggested that Gremlins are the best of the best. They are, however, broken; because the Mosquito re-summon is broken. Taking infinite turns/being able to be anywhere on the board is in of itself broken. You can out activate everyone but Hamelin just by having two mosquitoes sacrifice each other. It is a "broken" mechanic. Definately agree that the Infinite Skeeter Summons needs fixing (and has for a long while), it was definately not intended. (In regards Hamelin) Flying pigs can still get him with push attacks. Piglets still cant get Hamelin when performing Swine Dashes because of Bully. And to add, you can still force discards via A Gremlins Luck by hitting the rest of Hamelins crew (The Void only protects him from discards when he is the target). Edited February 28, 2012 by Omenbringer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harbinger Posted February 28, 2012 Report Share Posted February 28, 2012 Oh. I'll go put the soap box away then =3 Why? Maybe we dont agree on things (well Ill agree with you that my bourde appeared to be a silly partying shot) but neither should be ashamed because we are passionate about the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiku Posted February 28, 2012 Report Share Posted February 28, 2012 (edited) Unless you are quoting some other post I have made, Omen, the flying pigs refers to Von Schill; who can fly and sit on top of buildings Fighting Von Schill? Flying pigs can still get him with push attacks. Not with regard to Hamelin =3 if you were specifically offering advice in relation to fighting Hamelin, please don't add text to the quote, it is misleading Edited February 28, 2012 by Spiku Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigkid Posted February 28, 2012 Report Share Posted February 28, 2012 So, 10 pages in and this thread has morphed into a 'Fixing Gremlins' thread....*wink* Time for a re-cap?? 'non-soulstone models fired by the pigapult should gain insignificant until next draw phase' and 'Larva becoming a (2) action rather than (all)'. Seem simple and concise, owt else? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Csonti Posted February 28, 2012 Report Share Posted February 28, 2012 'Larva becoming a (2) action rather than (all)'. Seem simple and concise, owt else? This is exactly the same what I have come up with as a possible fix. Simply there is no need for this kind of loopholes in the game. I wonder why didn't they fix that ages ago... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiku Posted February 28, 2012 Report Share Posted February 28, 2012 The suggestion that Models without Use Soulstone should gain insignificant until the ext Draw Phase is only a suggestion as to the appropriate "cuddle" if Wyrd felt that this was actually a problem. There's no "should" about it, just that if it -were- to be cuddled, this is the least intrusive way. Larva being a (2) action is not one I agree with, as you -should- be able to get all your mosquitoes on the first turn and when you need to respawn the buggers, having to wait 3 turns to get the rest back is far, far too long to have an impact; you are already paying for them with another model, and you already cycle out their own wounds and kill them off just to use a spell. A (2) action would just make them near useless, or force the gremlin player to spend a wealth of actions keeping them alive + rebuffing the ones that exist, which would lead to them unable to act on the field normlaly. So yeah, definitely not a (2) action Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Csonti Posted February 28, 2012 Report Share Posted February 28, 2012 Or you -should- just start with 2 instead of 1 and get 2 more out of them at the first turn. And then send out offensively only one pair, while the others can make 2 replacements per turn. This would indeed make Mosquito spaming a bit less effective (sending only 2) OR more risky (if you send 3 and they die, you will have factory problems). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finnegan Posted February 28, 2012 Report Share Posted February 28, 2012 Or, if you want to keep the same playstyle without the infinite spawn, make it so the spell can only be cast 3 times per round per crew. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiku Posted February 28, 2012 Report Share Posted February 28, 2012 Csonti; There is no reason to make Mosquitoes less effective or risky, Gremlins are already a hard enough faction and they are the only option in the gremlin list that actually has that survivability. Not least of all they are a lynchpin in piglet lists. At 30ss there are many times where the 2 mosquitoes means 1 less support or crew necessary model unless you take only 1 Bayou Gremlin; which stifles your summoning options. iI would kill the use of mosquitoes; starting with more gives you less cards to try your 11+ summons on. Taking two, to make two that are slow, sorts you out at the start, but provides nothing for them on turn 3+, and also reduces them to as you suggest two effective models up field or 3 with too much time to refresh. What you are suggesting is a flat cuddle to Som'er rather than closing an abusive loop, and is not one that is required. You've never seen anyone up in arms about piglets being too effective because mosquitoes provide the Sooey!'s/positioning to keep them mobile (and a df 7 to survive failure); flatly the only broken mechanic is the infinite spawn, and there is no reason to justify crushing what is already considered a crew which runs out of steam as turns progress even worse sustainability. Saying only 3-4 mosquitoes may be summoned by a player in any turn is perfectly adequate, and would not undermine the crew. (it should say something that Finnegan has faced my Gremlins more than most, and he suggested of his own violition a method to keep the play style at present) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigkid Posted February 28, 2012 Report Share Posted February 28, 2012 Or Larva may not be used on Insignificant models? Granted that stops the Malifaux Rat trick but it makes sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiku Posted February 28, 2012 Report Share Posted February 28, 2012 Bigkid: it'd stop you being able to eat piglets though, otherwise that's quite an interesting proposition! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigkid Posted February 28, 2012 Report Share Posted February 28, 2012 Bigkid: it'd stop you being able to eat piglets though, otherwise that's quite an interesting proposition! Although you could activate the Piglet first and 'Root around'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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