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The Boy Named Sue vs. Samael Hopkins


Hjelmen
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So as I was thumbing through Twisting Fates I got to thinking about Sue as opposed to Samael.

Sam is obviously better for damage output, especially against models with high Ca, but he is sorely lacking in utility. Sue on the other hand has some amazing utility that I feel I need in my Sonnia crews against Wp based attacks/abilities. Sonnia and Witchling Stalkers can put out some amazing damage, so even more damage becomes a little extraneous.

Sue can also help out the Avatar of Conflagration with Ring Circle of Fire Flames by handing out even more Burning tokens.

What do you guys think? Is Sue a better fit for Sonnia than her faithful sidekick Samael?

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After going over his stats and abilities, I would have to agree that the utility Sue brings to the table can be far more effective than what Samael can do on his own. Where Sam gets a leg up though is that he can provide decent ranged support for a crew that hits like a brick in melee, but only does mediocre at range. I'm gonna pick up dear Sue today, and I'll give him a whirl.

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I realize your question is whether Samael or Sue is better in a Sonnia crew, but for me the question is whether either one adds enough to justify their 8 stone cost. I firmly believe they do not. Santiago is strictly better than Samael in terms of damage reliability (Paired is arguably the most powerful ability in the game other than use soulstones) and he costs one fewer stone as well. So, with Samael eliminated as an option let's see if Sue makes the cut as a support model.

Guardian is the most commonly taken support model in Guild lists. It is one stone cheaper than Sue. One of the Guild's greatest strengths is its ability to put out substantial amounts of damage. The Guardian allows your high damage models to stay in the fight longer than they normally would. Sue offers Disrupt Magic, which is inconsequential considering a Sonnia crew often has two witchling stalkers, who also have the ability. He can give +2 WP in opposed duels. Unfortunately this costs (1)AP, meaning he has to activate early in the turn to gain maximum benefits for the crew, and he will fall behind the rest of the crew unless he spends his other AP on movement. Circle of Flames is also not nearly as good as it first appears. Any melee model of equivalent cost to Sue will simply take the damage then rip him to shreds. Hurt also doesn't benefit a Sonnia crew as much as some others because she isn't particularly card or suit dependent.

Basically, Guardian is superior to Sue as a support model. I would also take Lucius or Witchling Handler in a support role before Sue.

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I realize your question is whether Samael or Sue is better in a Sonnia crew, but for me the question is whether either one adds enough to justify their 8 stone cost. I firmly believe they do not. Santiago is strictly better than Samael in terms of damage reliability (Paired is arguably the most powerful ability in the game other than use soulstones) and he costs one fewer stone as well. So, with Samael eliminated as an option let's see if Sue makes the cut as a support model.

Guardian is the most commonly taken support model in Guild lists. It is one stone cheaper than Sue. One of the Guild's greatest strengths is its ability to put out substantial amounts of damage. The Guardian allows your high damage models to stay in the fight longer than they normally would. Sue offers Disrupt Magic, which is inconsequential considering a Sonnia crew often has two witchling stalkers, who also have the ability. He can give +2 WP in opposed duels. Unfortunately this costs (1)AP, meaning he has to activate early in the turn to gain maximum benefits for the crew, and he will fall behind the rest of the crew unless he spends his other AP on movement. Circle of Flames is also not nearly as good as it first appears. Any melee model of equivalent cost to Sue will simply take the damage then rip him to shreds. Hurt also doesn't benefit a Sonnia crew as much as some others because she isn't particularly card or suit dependent.

Basically, Guardian is superior to Sue as a support model. I would also take Lucius or Witchling Handler in a support role before Sue.

I think this is a good breakdown. I haven't fielded Samael with Sonnia for some time, and I don't think I'd take Sue, either. I do think Sue is better for Sonnia as some diversity, but von Clausewitz is right -- I wouldn't expect to take either.

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My answer seems too curt now. I'm jumping back in.

Samuel Hopkins

Good Things: High minimum damage (if bullets spell is used). Has Hunter, Has Scout. Has crow suited spells (arrest and snare) that may cause opponent to lose/use some cards.

Bad Things: Not good movement/No additional action points to get things done.

Analysis so far: Difficult in most matchups to justify the 8 ss cost. Better in matches vs. lots of hard to wound models due to high min damage (ressers?) Better on tables where terrain is severe (scout) and where cover is prevalent (hunter).

Boy Named Sue:

Good Things: Critical Strike on Guns raises min damage without spell, Paired Guns with Gunfighter, Good Card Draw Utility (Hurt), Other "interesting effects" largely based on matchup.

Bad Things: 8 SS cost is alot...MY jury is still out on if he is worth it. Limits crew selection (he's 1 of 2 mercenaries and you can't take wicked/ruthless models with him).

Analysis so far: So far only played two games so jury is still out for me. I like paired pistols with critical strike and gunfighter. I like that if he doesn't have the movement/actions to get into the fight himself (something my opponent also impacts) that he can still help out my crew in a variety of ways - such as auras and/or card drawing.

Sam vs. Sue

Thoughts: vs. Ressers

I want high min damage at range. Sue is min damage 3 or 4 with crit strike; Sam is 5 or 6 with spell.

I want to get around neg. Flips like from cover: Sue always gets around the neg flip with paired pistols. Sam can ignore cover with hunter.

Sue is immune to terrifying; Sam is susceptable to terrifying.

If Sue is "out of the fight" he can help generate cards if I need them. If Sam is out of the fight, I'm SoL.

Close, but I like Sue more. Reason: Sam lacks AP/movement to make good use of high damage profile. Utility has been helping me more in these games.

vs. Born

Sue is immune to terrifying; Sam is susceptable to terrifying.

Sue can negate Obey and Pacify/Incite. Sam can't.

Sue can boost vs. WP duels. Sam can't.

With the born, hitting will be the big thing, not necessarily damage. So Sue's Paired is better than Sam's ... uh ... not paired - and again, they are even vs. cover.

If Sue is "out of the fight" he can help generate cards if I need them. If Sam is out of the fight, I'm SoL.

Sue can use circle of flames to discourage Born from using his "area" of the board - a concern since the Born tend to be faster crews that can dictate engagement direction.

vs. Arcanists

If it's Collette, Sam is helpful due to his + vs. high casting models. Otherwise, I feel they are on similar ground as to hitting and damage.

If it's Marcus, I again like Sue for his circle of fire (see Born above).

If it's Ramos, Both can be equally good.

If it's Rasputina, Both can be equally good.

Feel like I need to play both more vs. Arcanists...

vs. Outcasts

I haven't played them at all. No comment.

So looking at them both...I do see Sue as a kind of "anything you can do I can do better" for Sam. I DON'T see the circle of fire helping out Sonnia's avatar that much. You can probably put more burning counters on other models with fire gamin. But I do like Sue more than Sam for a Sonnia list.

Guardian vs. Sue

Different thread! Guardian and Sue don't compete for simiar roles AT ALL in my lists. If we want to discuss what I'd put down if I was playing a master and 8 SS scrap, then no - I wouldn't take Sonnia and Sue. I do see Sue and Sam both fulfilling similar roles for someone building a Sonnia crew however (at least they do for me) and so which one to take is a great question.

Edited by Turbodog
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von Clausewitz is right, the Guardian is probably a better use of SS, but as Turbodog says, that's an entirely different barrel of fish, since they perform vastly different roles.

I admit that I don't have much practical experience with Malifaux, but on paper, Sue does seem to have an edge over Sam. Maybe not over many other choices, but I think that Sam is the only model that you can directly compare Sue with wrt. their roles.

@Turbodog: Good breakdown! I guess that Circle of Flames has too low range to help aSonnia, but it's still an option. Fire Gamin will naturally be better at that job, since that's their thing.

Edited by Hjelmen
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Samael has no synergy whatsoever with Sonnia, so there's no particular reason to run him in any Sonnia crew beyond the abilities on his card, if you're that way inclined.

Sue is very, very good, because Hurt is so damn strong. He kind of functions like a walking Pyre with Ring of Fire too, so he has some limited synergy with aSonnia.

Sue is really good. Samael is mediocre.

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