Writer@Large Posted February 13, 2012 Report Share Posted February 13, 2012 So, I just got through a "learning league" at my FLGS. I had fun, but got my butt handed to me every. Single. Game. Here are some of the crazier things I witnessed in the league: * Zorida voodoo-ing my Gunsmith from nearly THREE FEET AWAY. No resist flip, no willpower duel, no Defense flip; just "I SEE YOU, now take two damage a turn until you DIE!" * Zorida, in general, with her negative flips to everything and her never dying and stuff. * LCB dropping his entire crew into an enemy deployment zone in turn one. [Actually, I think it might have been the first MOVE of the game.] * Papa Loco getting close to my Master and then exploding for 6 damage to everything in range; and then, after I'd exhausted my high cards saving models from damage, DOING IT AGAIN THAT ROUND because he has 8 damage and the ability isn't a "sacrifice" effect. * Lady Justice and her nasty, high-hitting, multiple-swinging greatsword. * McMournung and his whole Body Parts thing -- gets them on EVERY HIT HE MAKES, spends them for Fast and more killy on you, then gets more body parts and summons crazy three-headed things to EAT YOUR FACE. * Nurses getting 3 actions to hand out ungodly bonuses to things. * Gremlins being ... well, gremlins. Fast, exploding, high-damaging nonsense. * Necropunks leaping nearly a foot across the table. I basically spent an entire league with my Arcanists feeling outgunned, outclassed, and generally out the money I spent on Malifaux. I definitely began to wish I'd gone Neverborn more than once. I know Colette has some fast-tricky play in her, but she takes a LOT of getting used to. And meanwhile I'm getting face-smashed by every other faction out there. I've bought into Arcanists enough where I don't feel like starting over; but I'm just struggling to see the upside. My question is: where's out crazy broken stuff? I want other people to sit across from ME and be like "It does that? That's ridiculous!" Because I got sick of being that guy during the league. And please, don't chime in if your response will be "The factions are all balanced, you pair master-to-master", etc. I'm not looking for that kind of answer. I've seen enough to know it's not strictly true. I just want to see where Arcanists aren't underpowered ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetid Strumpet Posted February 13, 2012 Report Share Posted February 13, 2012 Colette and the Show girls. One of the best Masters in the game, but Byzantine enough in her complexity that to master her almost requires a Phd in Malifaux. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nerdelemental Posted February 13, 2012 Report Share Posted February 13, 2012 (edited) hmmm....quirky. Right up the road from you (RIW), we don't have that kind of feeling at all. Kaeris, Rasputina, Ramos, are all SOLID (beside Collette's awesomeness). Gunsmiths are nigh on the edge of broken, and once you add Kaeris to either Ramos or Rasputina it starts to seem on the edge of dumb, too. I'd love to sit down for two or three weeks and just coach and build slowly. Part of your curb-stomping may be that you were trying to figure out the other side of the table while also figuring your crew out, too? There was a time when we were inundated with "Zoraida is the weakest master in the game" if you can believe it. Some times it just takes time. As far as the other side of the table, several of us have shelved the Steamborg because his shenanigans can get pretty over the top pretty quickly. Post your full collection of figs. I'm interested in seeing what you had to work with and will happily offer suggestions about what you were missing that could have helped you feel less out-classed. Edited February 13, 2012 by nerdelemental Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ebonstar Posted February 13, 2012 Report Share Posted February 13, 2012 Besides being a Malifaux PhD with Collette... Soulstone Miners and current bury mechanics + Raspy. Soulstone Miners. Ramos/Kaeris 2012. That's where my votes are, baby! Raspy 16" overpower deathray. Raspy 9" overpower deathchill Coryphee Duet. It's not just for Showgirls you know! I know our stuff isn't quite as impressive as the other factions, but still. Arcanists: Because everything else just seems too trendy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nephalumps Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 Kaeris + Student of Conflict is supposed to be very beefy (unrocky seems to have used it to kill....everything,) but I haven't tried that myself. Aside from that and the ones Ebonstar mentioned, Arcanists don't really have a lot of "oh god please no" models/combinations. The faction is characterized by its "balance", and lack of really borked, scary stuff. The good news is, once you're used to playing Arcanists, any other faction you pick up will probably seem like hell on wheels. *wink* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbopper Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 (edited) as a new player as well as a new zoriada player, the gunsmith scares me. paired weapons gets around proper manners, and i would not bother with the vodoo doll as duty makes the gunsmith immune to being obeyed. the poison is nice but will take four turns to kill. if i was going against zoriada i would take two gunsmiths. their custom pistol with wooden ammo seems very good against neverborn in general, smoldering heart is another nice defense. as i said they scare me. Edited February 14, 2012 by bigbopper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ukrocky Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 Kaeris, Rasputina, Ramos, are all SOLID (beside Collette's awesomeness). Errr....Marcus? Gunsmiths are nigh on the edge of broken Er...interested in your thoughts here? They're a decent 6ss minion but nothing compared to gunslingers or ssminers? several of us have shelved the Steamborg because his shenanigans can get pretty over the top pretty quickly. Again, I find him useless for his ss cost compared to other things. Would rather have a swarm over the big guy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serigala Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 Ramos's avatar can also be pretty potent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchethead Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 The good news is, once you're used to playing Arcanists, any other faction you pick up will probably seem like hell on wheels. *wink*With the obvious exception of Kirai players, most Rezzer and Guild players would tend to disagree with that statement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rancor709 Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 Arcanist can be very solid, without knowing your available model pool its hard to say what to get. SS miner with current bury mechanic is an outstanding model, I am a huge Kaeris and student of conflict supporter, adds fun to almost any crew and by fun I mean face melting. When your just starting out neverborn can seem very overwhelming but I've been just as overwhelmed by a properly constructed and played cult of december with raspy dropping death while being scooted up the table by snowstrom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GamerGaeth Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 The trick with Arcanists, perhaps more than with any other faction, is that our masters rely upon syngergy with their minions. You can't really play each model as its own guy, you always have to be thinking about how it fits into the greater tactics. As a faction, we can set up some very sick combos (a properly executed showgirl poisoning is a beautiful thing, as is the deluge of icy hell that Rasputina can let loose with when Bite of Winter is active on her, channeling through a Silent One) but you have to know your crew and how they work with each other. So yes, like the others have said, let's see a list of what you've got and we'll give you some pointers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Writer@Large Posted February 14, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 Sure, I can offer my collection. I actually bought quite heavily into Arcanists ... Ramos Box Rasputina Box Colette Box Kaeris Box 3 Additional arachnids (small) Large Steampunk Arachnid Electrical Creation Mobile Toolkit SS Miner Silent One December Acolyte Snowstorm Wendigo Essence of Power Coryphee Duet Mechanical Doves Angelica (on order) Joss Johan Rusty Alyce Hans Lest you think me weird for buying so heavily before playing much, know that I'm a modeller as much as a player, and I tend to dive headfirst into games like this. Maybe I'm too unfocused. I dunno. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orboros Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 One of our local players is currently dominating with a Raspy/Kaeris/Gunsmith list. You can basically chang the battlefield how you want, blocking charge lanes with flame and ice walls. If an enemy comes near a combination of extremely heavy "overpowered" (see what i did there) dmg spells, burning token shenanigans and the sheer awesomeness that is the Gunsmiths eats through everything. Still have to find a proper counter for this.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike3838 Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 Most of the stuff you mention in your original post is in no way cheesy or beardy. The only one that maybe is, is Dreamer, but taking him out of your list of nasty stuff, there's nothing nasty at all. Your problem is this: The first time you face any master in this game, you'll probably lose. Malifaux is very much about knowing your crew but also knowing your opponents crew very well. Taking a few you mention: Voodoo Doll does 2 damage a turn because Zoraida herself has very little force offensive power. Most other masters in every faction are capable of 10-15 damage output a turn. McMourning hits you 3 times and summons? Ramos Avatar does the same thing - you kinda just have to weather it. A master vs a minion is usually a 1-sided combat. Necropolis can leap? So can Sabercats and Silurids (good with Marcus), and in Colette you have the most manoeuvrable crew in the game. You think Gremlins are explosive? You're not playing Rasputina correctly. Nurses aren't very good. Their 3 casts have to be onto the same target. Overpriced support model at best. And, aren't all the Arcanists masters Casting Experts? Short version: Bit more practise and experience and you'll be fine. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nerdelemental Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 Errr....Marcus? Er...interested in your thoughts here? They're a decent 6ss minion but nothing compared to gunslingers or ssminers? Again, I find him useless for his ss cost compared to other things. Would rather have a swarm over the big guy? This post might be the very best explanation about what's going on. I think Arcanists, more than the other factions, require you to figure out what works best for you. I think they've got all the tools to truly go toe to toe with any other faction and even "best master" v. "best master" - but this exemplifies how different people gravitate to different tools to support how they like to play. Locally, Writer, you have a Ramos player that plays much more like [i think] unrocky does. But in my LGS, Maverickman plays very differently. They're both good and competitive, but seriously - it's like two different Ramos' I'm facing. With Mav, he'll pack a couple of Gunsmiths, Steamborg, and/or Joss and I know he means to kill me and anything I brought. However, when we were first starting, he'd lose to me much more than he'd win even if I was bouncing between crews and he was staying focused on Ramos. We have a long gaming history, so I knew he was equal to me as a player. Then, when it clicked, it was noticable. He'd suddenly force me to throttle up if I wanted to keep up and nothing changed other than some perception. And he does not run a bug summoning engine. He's about shelling out pain with Electrical Fire, then he blows up Ice Gamin, then comes in and cleans up with something heavy. I can see it coming. Even if I'm running Lilith I'm on edge that he'll shell out more damage than me. Unrocky would rather a big swarm than Steamborg. Awesome! I couldn't imagine why given my experience with and against the big 'borg, but that's what the Arcanists are probably about. Figuring out what works for you and how they work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nephalumps Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 With the obvious exception of Kirai players, most Rezzer and Guild players would tend to disagree with that statement. I actually thought about that as I was posting, but I didn't want to spoil the joke. This is outside of the scope of the OT a bit, but I think it speaks to the perceived issue of Arcanists not having strong crews: I think one of the things that make Arcanists so consistently tricky to use is that you don't have any "power minions" to fall back on/start you list with. More specifically: Arcanists right now don't really have a good, cheap, "general" minion like some other factions do. If I'm playing Ressers, I can toss Belles in any one of my lists and *bam*: I have access to a powerful effect (Lure) for a low cost. Or you can bring Night Terrors and have some fantastic objective grabbers/speedbumps. Neverborn can use Tots, who can easily be set up to grow into Young, or you can just have the nasty little buggers run amok, slashing people and claiming objectives. Guild has access to 4 SS minions that output very respectable damage, along with mildly tough to kill (or exploding upon death.) Outcasts are weird, so I'm not counting them in this rant. *wink* Arcanists have their fair share of cheap minions, but you can't really get away with "take 1-3 of these in most of your lists and you'll be fine." Arcanist crews in general are something you really need to develop a "feel" for, and one of the things that makes that so tricky is that you don't really have a cheap base to work off of, if you don't have a clue where to start. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mythicFOX Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 @nerelemental Tend to agree with the above. The 'cheap base' or in my case the lack of quality significant models under 6ss, is somthing I've complained about for a while, I think what ukrocky was saying there was he didn't understand how you'd gotten to these conclusions? Gunsmiths are nigh on the edge of broken, .... As far as the other side of the table, several of us have shelved the Steamborg because his shenanigans can get pretty over the top pretty quickly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchethead Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 (edited) Arcanists have their fair share of cheap minions, but you can't really get away with "take 1-3 of these in most of your lists and you'll be fine." Arcanist crews in general are something you really need to develop a "feel" for, and one of the things that makes that so tricky is that you don't really have a cheap base to work off of, if you don't have a clue where to start. Point taken! I always struggle to qualify the oddness of the Arcanist faction. As a Henchman, I'm often asked to explain the factions; how they play, their theme, etc. I tend to waffle when it comes to the Arcanists. Speaking purely from a meta game perspective (as opposed to fluff), they don't have a shtick, a cohesive theme that ties the crews together or informs how they are meant to play - nothing that's immediately obvious, at least. That alone can make them a bit daunting, I suppose. Even the Outcasts have "versatility" as a lynchpin, which is the only logical way to explain their nonsense. *smug* Edited February 14, 2012 by Hatchethead Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nilus Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 Gunsmiths aren't broken but they are solid at 6 points. Of course I think the problem with them is they are clearly on the wrong color card. I think it should be red Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mythicFOX Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 (edited) You can have all the guns if we can have all the robots. Edited February 14, 2012 by mythicFOX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchethead Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 Can we have some robots? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucidicide Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 You can have all the guns if we can have all the robots. +1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchethead Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 Actually, a few guns would be nice, too ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nilus Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 You can have all the guns if we can have all the robots. Sorry can't. The Malifaux with Disabilities act requires us to keep them around for Hoffman to ride on. We'd be willing to give you all the Latigo Pistoleros you can ever want and the Judge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
micahwc Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 You can get them on a short term loan with low interest as long as you bring Hoffman along for the brawl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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