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First use of Avatars of Indulgence


Spiku

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I don't follow on the Ophelia comment; she's Ophelia, why would you not take her?

She's Ophelia! I bring her to games when I'm not fielding her so she can advise me =(

A.Som'er at 30ss+ in pig lists. Usually I'll roll Ophelia, but I'll pig list for some situations. I wasn't saying that I only use x list at x points, but saying where A.Som'er would be taken for me at permissive point rates; everything above 30 that is a pig list, for me, will have A.Som'er in. I will also take A.Som'er when I have an Ophelia list at high points where I have Som'er to eat up some points.

A.Som'er with Ophelia at high point games (as you were suggesting was the only place for him. At high point games I always have som'er filling points with Ophelia and use alpha stank and card deny to keep Ophelia killing; taking A.Som'er means he can provide some support too (despite my many tears over spending 14ss for Ophelia)

I disagree with your view that slop hauler is core; I take Hog Whisperer over slop hauler in pig lists already, so A.Som'er is a no brainer; in Ophelia crews slop haulers stopped making as much a return for me unless they are taken in pairs anyway, and when you get to that point you might as well grab A.Som'er and make up for your turn 3-4 low health anyway.

For Turf War I would still spend 2 on A'Somer; soulstone'd high card Swamp Gas will provide a push away, and he also has the ability to pull your significant models toward him. Just manifest on turn 5-6 instead of turn 2-3; and summon until then. But yes, Som'er is clearly better suited due to sitting back and summoning.

But he's not Ophelia.

So there.

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I meant if you have Ophelia leading a crew or not. By having her leading a crew in Claim Jump for example, you loose the knack to summon that Somer would give you.

She's still there as a minion though.

You know the best thing about Ophelia and ASomer? No longer being auto paralysed by Coppelius. Woop.

Edited by Dumb Luck
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THX for this great thread. I'm going to run Som'er and Peaches tomorrow for a few games.

Another nice trick, I don't know if it has been mentioned before:

For example Convict Gunslinger shoots on Som'er, probably with Hair Trigger and Rapid Fire. Cheat a Crow for the first defense flip, take damage and summon a Bayou Gremlin into melee with the Gunslinger. This way he can't continue shooting on Som'er.

Had a friend do this to me the first time I played against his aSom'er. Very annoying and clever tactic. I got a bit too close and it cost me.

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Posted this earlier and not really sure what happened to it so here goes again.

Take him with a horde of normal Gremlins, cast Reckless Frenzy, companion all of them with Peaches and THEN you can start the hysterics. I have seen literally no discussion on this ability. But its horrid. Start with Ophelia and all the LaCroix. Activate them. Family Tree in Somer. Activate LITERALLY EVERYONE ELSE. Apart from any Haulers, Whisperers etc.

Or you could take him with a Pig Heavy crew (I prefer the Pig Boomerang list) and have him build a gunline in game, since the support models that make him a contender after manifestation are also required for the Pig Boomerang (no sense only getting use out of those expensive models after Manifestation after all).

What Swamp Gas has over Pull my Finger is doing wounds, longer range and the push. I used it to great effect in a Claim Jump game by pushing ASeamus off the marker, reactivating and doing it again. Free pigs is pretty good too.

With you on everything but the free pigs, it has less than a 10% chance of success (so is far from a reliable method of summoning).

Gremlin crews still need that core of Ophelia, Rami and Slop Hauler. I say this because you're not just buying the Avatar, but pretty much the Hog Whisperer too.

Disagree whole heartedly with this, Gremlins dont always need these models to be successful, in a pig list they would be wasted points (except the Hog Whisperer who is very much essential to a pig list).

I don't follow on the Ophelia comment; she's Ophelia, why would you not take her?

She's Ophelia! I bring her to games when I'm not fielding her so she can advise me =(

(despite my many tears over spending 14ss for Ophelia)

Ophelia is very much a bargain at 14 SS for what she brings to a gunline.

I disagree with your view that slop hauler is core; I take Hog Whisperer over slop hauler in pig lists already, so A.Som'er is a no brainer; in Ophelia crews slop haulers stopped making as much a return for me unless they are taken in pairs anyway, and when you get to that point you might as well grab A.Som'er and make up for your turn 3-4 low health anyway.

Definately agree, the Slop Hauler is nice but hardly a requirement for every build. I still rarely field one and have never fielded two (I cant think of a time I would rather have 2 Slop Haulers than the versatility a Bayou Gremlin and 2 Piglets provides).

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Finnegan:

DIE IN THE FACE!

Dumb Luck

Re: The Dreamer; I mentioned that in my original post in 4), because gosh darn is that so damn useful in a horrible horrible match! Sad thing is Som'er is so easily mauled by LCB with Df4 and without Squeel!

Omenbringer:

True enough on the 14ss; knowing that you can actually indiscriminately fire with Bayou's safely for them, and for your own models means that you are effectively buying off her cost with the soulstone value of any Bayou's that survive shooting things, which increases even further with Som'ers reckless buff and companion chain through Ophelia's (0). It's just the darn transition point where you get to "I can spend the 14, probably 20 for Rami, comfortably". It certainly does make me pine for an ss cache on Som'er

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What Swamp Gas has over Pull my Finger is doing wounds, longer range and the push. I used it to great effect in a Claim Jump game by pushing ASeamus off the marker, reactivating and doing it again. Free pigs is pretty good too.

I was talking in relation to Mosquitos, in which case the changes I listed make 'Swamp Gas' a sucky upgrade.

As sucky as Ophelia after 10 jars of 'shine....

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Yesterday I played Som'er and Peaches for the first time at a small tourney with my friends.

I tried out the Som'er-Slingshot via four mosquitoes (2x Sooey to push him to the enemy and 2x Sooey to push him back), a Hog Whisperer for reactivate and flight, Ophelia for some more damage or mobility, and some minions to out-activate the opponent. I'd say he's not easy to play, cause his stats are only average. Cb 5-6 and Df 4 with 10 Wds is crappy for someone who wants to be in melee. All in all I burned a lot of soulstones (8 for Skeeters, 5 for Whisperer, 6 Cache = 21!!! Soulstones) for very few damage. Som'er Avatar isn't like the Dreamer...

*wink*

And I found out you can't have all the cards you need. A lot of 8+ for Sooey via Skeeters (or cards to cheat the charge, if the mosquito misscasted Sooey), 8+ for the Whisperer, 4 cards for "Atta Girl!", cards for saving a mosquito,... to sum up: a lot of dumb luck, cause you can't cheat what you need to cheat!

:o)

Therefore I believe it's better to use Som'er Avatar ONLY as support, keeping him behind his gunline, buffing his crew and saving all soulstones for Ophelia. He should only charge if he had to do.

What do you think?

Edited by Attila
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It really depends what you're playing against how to use his avatar. Against a crew with lots of Companion effects, you want to keep him back, or only bring him out when there's no danger of more than 2 models attacking him (I think that 3 minions can take him down barring soulstone use). Against a "normal" crew, unless you put him in range of a heavy hitter that can kill him in one activation, Som'er can take one, maybe two rounds of attacks between HTW and Armor, and then you can pull him back with one of your support models, meaning you can use him as a attacker.

As for attacking, I find charging in, triggering "Atta Girl" once or twice, then using Reckless to cast Swamp Gas is pretty effective.

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I tried out the Som'er-Slingshot via four mosquitoes (2x Sooey to push him to the enemy and 2x Sooey to push him back), a Hog Whisperer for reactivate and flight, Ophelia for some more damage or mobility, and some minions to out-activate the opponent. I'd say he's not easy to play, cause his stats are only average. Cb 5-6 and Df 4 with 10 Wds is crappy for someone who wants to be in melee. All in all I burned a lot of soulstones (8 for Skeeters, 5 for Whisperer, 6 Cache = 21!!! Soulstones) for very few damage. Som'er Avatar isn't like the Dreamer...

He definately is not the dreamer, however I would say that hiring all 4 Skeeters was a bad idea from the get go (you really only need 2 for an effective Boomerang). Additionally, bringing Ophelia really limited the rest of the crew because of her points cost (and SS hunger).

For low Soulstone games (25-35) it is best to either choose to run Ophelia as a Master with a gunline, or Somer by himself (with either a gunline, balanced list, or pig heavy). Ophelia costs to much at lower SS games and really puts a strain on Some'r to pump out more Gremlins every turn (something that is very diffiuclt to maintain turn in and turn out, a similar issue with the Gremlin Taxidermist).

Remember that Gremlins aren't about quality hits, they are about numerous hits (sort of like the old adage "how does a mouse eat an elephant? One bite at a time"). Because of their low Cb and Damage line they should only be expected to hit (even with the Dumb Luck trigger on the table).

And I found out you can't have all the cards you need. A lot of 8+ for Sooey via Skeeters (or cards to cheat the charge, if the mosquito misscasted Sooey), 8+ for the Whisperer, 4 cards for "Atta Girl!", cards for saving a mosquito,... to sum up: a lot of dumb luck, cause you can't cheat what you need to cheat!

Remember that you dont need to successfully cast Sooey! for it to push the pigs their Cg (it does this even when it fails), the only thing that needs to be done if unsuccessfully cast is to cheat down the resulting attack flips on the skeeter that is being attacked (Gremlins are the only crew where Low cards benefit as much as high cards in the control hand).

Therefore I believe it's better to use Som'er Avatar ONLY as support, keeping him behind his gunline, buffing his crew and saving all soulstones for Ophelia. He should only charge if he had to do.

What do you think?

Avatar Some'r wasn't really designed to benefit a straight gunline much (especially for a typical game of between 25-35 SS), he was designed for a Pig list that can transition into a gunline in game (after Some'r has had time to bolster the line). With this in mind his best builds will favor pigs or a fairly balanced crew (Ophelia only detracts from this because of her points cost and SS addicition).

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It really depends what you're playing against how to use his avatar. Against a crew with lots of Companion effects, you want to keep him back, or only bring him out when there's no danger of more than 2 models attacking him (I think that 3 minions can take him down barring soulstone use). Against a "normal" crew, unless you put him in range of a heavy hitter that can kill him in one activation, Som'er can take one, maybe two rounds of attacks between HTW and Armor, and then you can pull him back with one of your support models, meaning you can use him as a attacker.

As for attacking, I find charging in, triggering "Atta Girl" once or twice, then using Reckless to cast Swamp Gas is pretty effective.

I'd always assume that the opponent's crew has a heavy hitter waiting for Som'er to come close. Or maybe a lure or slingshot-trick. Or the opposing master himself. Therefore I think Avatar Somer really needs an exit-strategy, if he's attacking hostile lines (on his own).

In regards to Omenbringer's post:

Playing only two mosquitoes for a 7" Somer-Boomerang is not enough. I faced Ramos-Avatar (big thread-range via leap + charge + melee expert = dead Somer), Lilith with the twins (big thread-range via transpositon and companion = dead Somer) and Victorias (big thread-range via Sisters in Spirit = dead Somer). As I said before, I'd prefer a save exit-strategy, especially facing crews like this (link).

I'd say Ophelia is the best option for a Gremlin gunline. She can shoot masters, shoot guys in cover, face Killjoy in melee, has great (0) actions and awesome abilities. If I'd the choise between her and four Bayou Gremlins, I'd definitely take Ophelia. Remember, there are a lot of situations in Malifaux, when the mouse has to hork the elefant down in one activation.

A lot of 8+ for Sooey via Skeeters (or cards to cheat the charge, if the mosquito misscasted Sooey),

Remember that you dont need to successfully cast Sooey! for it to push the pigs their Cg (it does this even when it fails), the only thing that needs to be done if unsuccessfully cast is to cheat down the resulting attack flips on the skeeter that is being attacked (Gremlins are the only crew where Low cards benefit as much as high cards in the control hand).

I did remember :) I just wanted to say: If you don't have cards left on your hand, you can't cheat... Good old Somer thinks of himself first when using rare control cards.

Avatar Some'r wasn't really designed to benefit a straight gunline much (especially for a typical game of between 25-35 SS), he was designed for a Pig list that can transition into a gunline in game (after Some'r has had time to bolster the line). With this in mind his best builds will favor pigs or a fairly balanced crew (Ophelia only detracts from this because of her points cost and SS addicition).

I understand that you like your piglets, but in most strategies you can't use them to achieve victory points. I like the idea of a Somer crew, which can face almost all opposing masters and handle all strategies, without hiding in a corner, launching Gremlins onto objectives, or killing the opponent's hand. I like the mobility of an Ophelia lead crew and I'd like to add some Wp-Buffs or other gimmicks. Adding Avatar Somer to Ophelia's crew costs 16 Soulstones and I still didn't find out the _big_ benefit.

As I wrote earlier, a only-Somer-Boomerang with support of Ophelia, four skeeters, Whisperer and Taxidermist didn't work as I'd liked it. Somer took too much damage, dealt too few damage and hardly summoned piglets/gremlins.

Edited by Attila
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Avatar Somer still benefits a gunline. The entire line gets to do three shots a turn without taking wounds for the prvilege, gets loads of Wp buffs and healing too. And pushes. Do the movement in Somer's turn, shoot in yours. Oh, and then theres the Companioning with the basic Gremlin. Avatar Somer works great in a gunline.

Furthermore, you have the bodies to protect him and since you're buffing your guns, you don't put him at risk by chucking him about the place.

I would like to add though he stil wouldn't be the first buy for the gunline (those are Ophelia, then the guns). At 40ss+ though, I'd don't see why not though.

Edited by Dumb Luck
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In regards to Omenbringer's post:

Playing only two mosquitoes for a 7" Somer-Boomerang is not enough. I faced Ramos-Avatar (big thread-range via leap + charge + melee expert = dead Somer), Lilith with the twins (big thread-range via transpositon and companion = dead Somer) and Victorias (big thread-range via Sisters in Spirit = dead Somer). As I said before, I'd prefer a save exit-strategy, especially facing crews like this (link).

Some'r should be in the back supporting his models for the most part (even when using him to lead the Pigs he should only be used to finish the job), thinking that he can hang with the big dogs like the Viks, Lilith or Avatar Ramos is a sure fire way to death. Against that Dreamer list Gremlins really dont have a chance.

I'd say Ophelia is the best option for a Gremlin gunline. She can shoot masters, shoot guys in cover, face Killjoy in melee, has great (0) actions and awesome abilities. If I'd the choise between her and four Bayou Gremlins, I'd definitely take Ophelia. Remember, there are a lot of situations in Malifaux, when the mouse has to hork the elefant down in one activation.

I agree she does lead a gunline better than Some'r, however if I am running Some'r then I would rather have the 4-7 Bayou Gremlins that Ophelia will displace. They provide more activations (which is important when isolating a target), have a longer threat range (by 4" of the :range strikes) and can generate the same or more damage than Ophelia (across the 4-7 activations with or without the Dumb Luck trigger and only hitting weak damage).

I understand that you like your piglets, but in most strategies you can't use them to achieve victory points. I like the idea of a Somer crew, which can face almost all opposing masters and handle all strategies, without hiding in a corner, launching Gremlins onto objectives, or killing the opponent's hand. I like the mobility of an Ophelia lead crew and I'd like to add some Wp-Buffs or other gimmicks. Adding Avatar Somer to Ophelia's crew costs 16 Soulstones and I still didn't find out the _big_ benefit.

As I said earlier, Avatar Some'r wasn't intended to do much for a Kin list. Yes I like my pigs but I run Some'r in all of his configurations competitively amd often (what I run is what is best for completing the given Strategy and Schemes).

Now as for the piglets they can help with achieving objectives, the Hog Whisperers Stik'm in the Ass spell is great for this (it allows the Piglets to use their All action Root Around to gain Significant then accomplish the Objective, the V2 card change helped alot in this regard). They also help with supporting Objective completion via Pig Ladders.

Now I do agree that a Straight pig list has some disadvantages in this regard however if you look around you'll see that my Pig list always includes 2-3 Bayou Gremlins from the start. I usually lead with the pigs (striking deep) and allowing Some'r to build the gunline, then transition to a pure gunline (moving the fight to mid to short range) around turn 4-5 (this by the way is also when I usually manifest Avatar Some'r).

As I wrote earlier, a only-Somer-Boomerang with support of Ophelia, four skeeters, Whisperer and Taxidermist didn't work as I'd liked it. Somer took too much damage, dealt too few damage and hardly summoned piglets/gremlins.

I have said many times that Gremlins are least competitive when they bring all the support models (something I call "Menoth Syndrome"). You dont need them all to be competitive (the only one that I will always take is the Hog Whisperer unless I am runnig a pure Gunline in which case I leave him and take a Slop Hauler for healing).

As example of "Menoth Syndrome" using the list above, you spent 27 SS hiring those models leaving very few for the staple models that Some'r needs to be successful (Bayou Gremlins and Piglets) and the SS cache that Ophelia really likes to have. The list lacks real focus (except perhaps as an Alpha Stank which is one of the easiest Some'r tactics to avoid) and depended upon Some'r and the Taxidermist summoning more models. The problem with this is that neither of these models can maintain this for very long (especially Some'r who prefers at least 2 Bayou Gremlins at the start to really get the summoning factory going). Additionally, the Taxidermist is one of the worst summoners in the game (since he needs a 6+ :crows card, a corpse counter or friendly piglet, and of course cant SS to help with casting meaning only a 17% chance of success).

Additionally most people try to race to manifest Avatar Some'r, this is generally a bad idea as he really does heavily favor supportting models vice summoning models in this role. Spending the first 3-4 turns of the game building his forces makes him much more effective after manifestation. Additionally, though he can still summon piglets (via Swamp Gas with a 11% chance of success) and Bayou Gremlins (via B.Y.O.G. with a 26% chance of success however requires him to take damage from the enemy as well) these should be thought of as defensive summons rather than to replenish losses.

Lastly, running a list that is designed to buff just Avatar Some'r (your so called "Only-Somer-Boomerang") was one that was doomed from the start, melee range is the last place he wants to be (Some'r and Avatar Some'r are support masters thru and thru, in true big boss fashion they expect others to do the heavy lifting and only move in for the Coup de grace and to steal credit when everything is safe).

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When casting Sooey if you fail to cast it the caster is charged. Does that still happen even if there Are intervening models or LOS blocking terrain?

Since it is a Charge action and not a Push, if the spell fails then it will follow the rules for charging (meaning intervening models and terrain will block unless the Pigs are Flying) and the pigs will face Disengaging strikes if leaving melee, however, LOS to the casting model doesn't matter since the Spell specifically states that it is charged.

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Sooey fail: "All pig models in range Charge this model if it loses the Casting Duel"

This does confuse me, because "Charge" in bold with capital C would suggest that it cannot Charge without LoS. Where can we find the precedent for the auto charge regardless of LoS?

With regard to Avatar Som'er; if you are boomeranging him you absolutely want to have out activated your opponent, or at least waste his cares with piglets first. Use him with a complement of pigs, and if you can't out activate, only do so while he is companioned with the mosquitoes so you can hit and run. Ideally you want to be jumping over terrain to do the attacks anyway, so they have less control.

Further, you really need to establish what you are aiming to do; it's all well and good going CHARGE! 3 attacks! lose 2 useless cards! But at the same time, you know that if you have a decent card in your hand you could just drop a Swamp Gas, maybe throw one of your 3 or so soulstones at it, to spread effective damage. Som'er is more likely to get one decent hit, and an opponent possibly discarding from his meaty stick; it's all about target priority.

Piglets will let you chew up some of your opponents cards, especially as you know you can safely stampede them using mosquitoes to get them into position; 9 attacks are bound to kill some of your opponent's hand, or make it so swamp gas + soulstone will get kills.

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At present, Ratty has referred the timing on whether summoned models have to take a terrifying test for "entering" the terrifying test to the rules clarification thread. I personally feel that you are better off treating the 3rd bullet point as referring to movement effects, so not including summoned. Much in the way I consider it bad sport to constantly larvae chain mosquitoes ;3

Edit: Thanks Calmdown, was a pleasure playing you

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Sooey fail: "All pig models in range Charge this model if it loses the Casting Duel"

This does confuse me, because "Charge" in bold with capital C would suggest that it cannot Charge without LoS. Where can we find the precedent for the auto charge regardless of LoS?

Ordinarily you would be correct because of Rules Manual page 42 step 1 for strike sequence, however in this instance you would skip it and move to the Charge movement because the target and range has already been determined by the failure of the spell (meaning LOS is not required). The only thing that would prevent the Charge at this point would be interveening terrain and models (if the pigs aren't also flying).

With regard to Avatar Som'er; if you are boomeranging him you absolutely want to have out activated your opponent, or at least waste his cares with piglets first. Use him with a complement of pigs, and if you can't out activate, only do so while he is companioned with the mosquitoes so you can hit and run. Ideally you want to be jumping over terrain to do the attacks anyway, so they have less control.

Exactly how you should be using Avatar Some'r, he really isn't the melee beat stick that people seam to think he is.

Further, you really need to establish what you are aiming to do; it's all well and good going CHARGE! 3 attacks! lose 2 useless cards! But at the same time, you know that if you have a decent card in your hand you could just drop a Swamp Gas, maybe throw one of your 3 or so soulstones at it, to spread effective damage. Som'er is more likely to get one decent hit, and an opponent possibly discarding from his meaty stick; it's all about target priority.

This is exactly what I was saying in my earlier post, the crew that was hired was less than ideal for Avatar Some'r to be successful.

Piglets will let you chew up some of your opponents cards, especially as you know you can safely stampede them using mosquitoes to get them into position; 9 attacks are bound to kill some of your opponent's hand, or make it so swamp gas + soulstone will get kills.

I have said this a million times (well it feels like it at least), Gremlins aren't about quality hits that produce damage they are about quantity of hits producing lots of damage.

Edited by Omenbringer
clarification
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Just re-read point seven on Spiku's original post. Pere with Hard to Kill. That is horrific!

Yep being able to possibly cast Oopsie! three times before his death is nice (remember though that he will be Slow as well so will have to stagger it over two activations).

Edited by Omenbringer
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