Painters I need your advice! A poor painter's plea.

[ukrocky]

So I currently am having problems with two hobby related things;

- Painting skin, i simply can't get it to look even half decent. Always had problems with skin.

- My level of detail. I basecoat, then I wash. I want to take it to the next level so it's not obviously washed, so highlighting I guess? Do I highlight over the wash in the original colour?

Many thanks in advance for any advice guys!

[osoi]

Ok I'll see how I can help

For caucasian skin this is my standard setup start off with trying to get an even coat of Vallejo Beige Red down first, it covers well over black and white primer. Then I give it a wash of GW Orgryn Flesh. Once dried I use a mix of GW or P3 skin tones starting at dwarf flesh level (paint most of the skin this colour leaving just the recesses with the darker mix) and then highlight with something like elf flesh (just on high points)

If you just basecoat and then wash yeah your level of detail is going to be good but not great. Experiment with adding a highlight before and after the wash and see what you like better, if you do it before the wash you can afford to be a bit more 'stark' or higher contrast. You will notice a big difference once you just put one highlight on. If applying the highlight after the wash go for a colour just a bit lighter than the original flat colour.

Good luck

[Backno]

One of my favorite generic skin recipes is take the mid flesh tone from your favorite paint brand (I use P3 Ryn Flesh but all of them will work) and use that for the base coat. Next use the Ogren Flesh wash once or twice (I almost always do it twice). Now take your original color and apply this on everything EXCEPT the areas you want shadows.

The trick is you need to make sure your brush can maintain a good point AND that you mix your paints right AND that you don't load to much paint into your brush. This is going to take some trial and error but the only way to learn how to do it is to do it, screw it up, and do it again.

After you have your first highlight you will want to do a targeted 2nd highlight. To do this make a 50/50 mix of your brands bright flesh color and your base color(I use P3 Menoth Highlight). Put this on sparingly to tip of the nose, the front of the brow, and the chin. This will naturally draw people to the face.

You can see what it looks like HERE on my Ramos.

[Tiny]

What paints do you use currently?

also do you have a pic of your current stuff?

[Mako]

For skin, I use a bronze fleshtone mixed with some khaki and bone colours (paler skin needs more bone than khaki) Then I shade with a cooler colour, often I chuck a little bit of purple in the shadows. An ogryn flesh wash with a little purple wash makes that easier. Then retouch your original colour on the face except the shadows, and highlight up towards bone or a pale grey. It really does depend on what skintone you want!

I'd suggest starting to work on your painting by doing a shadow, midtone and then highlight, washing it to blend them together and deepen your shadows. For example, use a darkish blue, then a middle blue, then a paler blue, then wash with blue-black.

At some point, when we get the fanzine going, I'm hoping to have stuff in there that'll help people pick out the colours they need to make their painting look fancier without too much hassle. It'll also have some skin recipies in I hope (but as that's months away it won't really help you for a while!)

[von Clausewitz]

Unfortunately, a few cursory sentences saying that i use "such and such" technique or "this and that" type of paint or wash probably isn't going to help you much. This video, however, is brilliant. This guy has around 150 high quality videos about painting and modeling on youtube.

Edited January 24, 2012 by von Clausewitz

[Mako]

That's a good find! Being able to see how someone does it can be really useful. Also shows how dilute paint should be when you use it.

I wouldn't dismiss being given a list of paints or a few technique notes as useless though. I often found when I was learning something that I had to work things out for my own way of painting (still learning too. There's always something to improve on!). Knowing what colours someone's used, and whether there's any special tricks involved, means someone can work through the painting and see what works for them and what doesn't. Bit more trial and error and the first few results will be nothing like you wanted though!

[von Clausewitz]

That's a good find! Being able to see how someone does it can be really useful. Also shows how dilute paint should be when you use it.

I wouldn't dismiss being given a list of paints or a few technique notes as useless though. I often found when I was learning something that I had to work things out for my own way of painting (still learning too. There's always something to improve on!). Knowing what colours someone's used, and whether there's any special tricks involved, means someone can work through the painting and see what works for them and what doesn't. Bit more trial and error and the first few results will be nothing like you wanted though!

Sorry if I came off as dismissive, my intention was to explain that many people, especially novice painters, may not know what a specific technique is or if they do they may not be familiar with the particulars of its execution.

[Mako]

Not at all man, I just thought I'd say it for those dropping in after! Probably should have chucked a smiley on there when I finished that bit!

Really depends on how you learn and what you're trying to do, both ways can help. Videos (especially good ones like that one. It's clear, makes sense, and for once is well lit and in focus ) will show stuff like placement of tones, paint thickness, all sorts of stuff that recipes don't. But as an extra to them, especially after you've got your method sorted out, playing with other peoples methods and mixes in your own way can sometimes bring some entertaining and occassionally useful results.

There's no real right way to pick up painting tips in the end I reckon, so long as at some point you poke a model with a brush...

Edited January 24, 2012 by Mako

[Fetid Strumpet]

I did a few models for the Rotten Harvest this past October. There are a few examples of My skin tones there. Seamus has my pretty standard caucasian tones, Molly has the new recipe for undead skin, and Kirai on her Avatar is my Asian Tones.

For Basic toning I use GW Dwarf Flesh as a base coat, then a wash GW Sepia wash, then once dry I wash the sunken areas of the face, like the eye sockets, around the nose, etc... again with Sepia. Once dry I highlight with GW Elf Flesh, and the a final small highlight of GW Bleached bone on the most raised edges.

[Guild Monkee]

If you get some P3 flesh wash and just stick it over whatever you want your lightest bit of skin to be. I don't know how they manage it but it doesn't tint the raised bits like GW washes, it just settles in the cracks and takes a lot of the effort out.

[TheOneWhoFell]

One of my biggest problems with flesh is that if you're paint is too think it LOOKS bad. Make sure your paint (or brush) is wet... not a wash, but wet enough to ensure smooth coverage. I usually go mid, add shadow, add highlights...

I wish I had the money to replace my paints... I'd switch from GW to Reaper... mostly 'cause Reaper has about 80 colors that I would consider "Flesh Tones". Compare that to GW's 5 or 6......

As for detail... Try a dry brush to pick out highlights.... I actually use paint in the dark areas sometimes... Other times I Ink the whole thing. One of the effects I really like is taking something like Devlin Mud and just inking the shadowed areas... on something like a red bag, it makes for a really nice contrast. Detail is in the eye of the beholder, but if it doesn't look like you want it to, add more paint. The worst that can happen is that you have to simple green it.

There is a series of videos called Hot Lead... I learned a lot from that guy. A lot of it was "Oh.... I never thought of that" stuff, but his website is worth a scan http://hot-lead.org/

[Ebonstar]

This video, however, is brilliant. This guy has around 150 high quality videos about painting and modeling on youtube.

Dr. Faust is my idol!!!

I get VERY particular about getting skin and faces right on mini's. Most of my concentration on painting a mini is focused directly on these two areas, because for me they make or break the model.

Skin tones are something you can always experiment with, but getting the skin texture down is critical no matter what colors you go for. Therefore I recommend a brush with a decent tip and a good sized "belly" when applying skin so that you can work relatively quickly and ensure even coverage while not allowing the paint to dry. Too often the problem I've seen/encountered with skin is that the paint clumps or dries, and you get lapping or crusting over the skin which obscures details and looks awful. Therefore you want to work with thinned down paint, a big-bellied brush with a decent tip and just get used to 5+ thin layers of paint rather than trying to achieve coverage in fewer coats. Even though I consider myself more of a speedier painter, skin is so important to me that I don't take too many shortcuts here.

Malifaux models feature a lot of (awesome!) female models as well, and there is a slightly different approach to how female skin is shaded/highlighted. Dr. Faust explains that incredibly well on his "Painting Cassandra" 2 part series.

[Backno]

Dr. Faust is my idol!!!

I get VERY particular about getting skin and faces right on mini's. Most of my concentration on painting a mini is focused directly on these two areas, because for me they make or break the model.

Skin tones are something you can always experiment with, but getting the skin texture down is critical no matter what colors you go for. Therefore I recommend a brush with a decent tip and a good sized "belly" when applying skin so that you can work relatively quickly and ensure even coverage while not allowing the paint to dry. Too often the problem I've seen/encountered with skin is that the paint clumps or dries, and you get lapping or crusting over the skin which obscures details and looks awful. Therefore you want to work with thinned down paint, a big-bellied brush with a decent tip and just get used to 5+ thin layers of paint rather than trying to achieve coverage in fewer coats. Even though I consider myself more of a speedier painter, skin is so important to me that I don't take too many shortcuts here.

Malifaux models feature a lot of (awesome!) female models as well, and there is a slightly different approach to how female skin is shaded/highlighted. Dr. Faust explains that incredibly well on his "Painting Cassandra" 2 part series.

I know once I got actual good brushes (ie not 6 brushes for 4 bucks) AND started mixing my paint with enough water I found painting all the tiny details much easier. When I did that Ramos I use 1 brush for everything from basecoat to the tiny details on his eyes (Windsor & Newton Series 7 size 1).

Having a brush that actually holds a usable amount of paint AND that will keep a good point got rid of a lot of the frustrations I had when I first started.

[striker8]

Sorry if I came off as dismissive, my intention was to explain that many people, especially novice painters, may not know what a specific technique is or if they do they may not be familiar with the particulars of its execution.

Ah, but one of the important aspects of painting that a novice has to learn is what the techniques are. The mastery of them isn't required but having an idea of what the techniques entail is since that is what you build you foundation of skill on. This is even more important in on line discussions since it's often hard to explain them in a simple sentence or two. Detailed explanations can found on line rather easily, Dr Faust's has been around forever, Cool Mini is full of really good tutorials, and there are many others.

I firmly believe there is now right way to paint and there is only the way that works for the individual and that only comes from experimentation by each individual painter. That being said when I first started I did the old bronze flesh with a wash for years and couldn't get beyond that, then had the luck to talk to a few really acomplished painters at a convention and they impressed upon me that you need to think shadow, mid tone, highlight at all times and it's crucial for skintones.

They recomended working with a simple 3 color shadow to highlight technique to start and then increase the number of layers/shades as I improved. So pick your base skin tone color, that is your mid tone, then pick you're shadow and highlight color. For example my usual "normal" skin is GW dwarf flesh mid tone, with dark flesh shadow, and elf flesh highlight.

Paint from shadow out, so base coat the shadow color, apply the mid tone leaving the shadow color where it needs to be, then the highest points get the highlight color.

Once you get the hang of it then you can start doing things like mixing the shadow and mid tone colors and having a intermediate step between the two, and doing the same with the mid tone and highlight and adding washes and glazes into the mix to soften the transitions from one color to the next.

[Mako]

Very true that. I tihnk my painting progress chart went something like:

paint areas flat colour ->paint midtone, wash -> paint midtone, highlights, wash -> paint shadows, midtone, highlights, wash -> paint shadows, layer and blend to midtone, layer and blend to highlights, wash -> paint midtone, blend to shadows, retouch midtone, blend to highlights, occassionally wash if needed.

Just added in one more layer of paint each time i get better. And as I got into the final stages of that list, I started thinning my paints more and more and using additives to make them behave how i wanted.

[Twizz666]

The biggest thing i ever did for myself in painting was stopped using the pots of paint. I bought a wet pallete and started thining down my paints. suddenly i went from chalky looking tones, to smoother more balanced looks. this made a massive change to the skin tones more than anything as i find that lots of thin layers gives it a deeper look and not such a flat look. that's just me though.

[Dustcrusher]

Twizz and Fell are right on- I cringe when I see people painting straight from the pot now, but my attempts to explain "they won't look like they are caked in multi-colored mud if you thin your paints first" seem to fall on deaf ears. I guess I need to get more stuff finished and (hopefully) prove it.

One thing that helps me: try stuff out on practice models before you start on your preciousessss. If you have no old minis to spare, get some plastic skeletons and paint those. Wargames Factory, Mantic, old GW skellies on eBay, whatever. Skeletons are simple to paint and make excellent wash and drybrush/highlight practice. It's much easier to make them look decent even if you goof something up.

I'll try to get a couple of pics posted soon of some old GW skellies I practiced on.

[Guild Monkee]

There is a series of videos called Hot Lead... I learned a lot from that guy. A lot of it was "Oh.... I never thought of that" stuff, but his website is worth a scan http://hot-lead.org/

This is a great series, I have a spare copy of the DVD set if you want it?

[striker8]

Very true that. I tihnk my painting progress chart went something like:

paint areas flat colour ->paint midtone, wash -> paint midtone, highlights, wash -> paint shadows, midtone, highlights, wash -> paint shadows, layer and blend to midtone, layer and blend to highlights, wash -> paint midtone, blend to shadows, retouch midtone, blend to highlights, occassionally wash if needed.

Just added in one more layer of paint each time i get better. And as I got into the final stages of that list, I started thinning my paints more and more and using additives to make them behave how i wanted.

TY for helping back me up. If people would start with the basics like block painting and then add on the other layers as they learn and practice painting wouldn't hold the mysterious aura it seems to have.

I didn't touch on thinning and probably should have. I thin every paint I use and using paint out of the pot makes me cringe! It's gotten to the point that every time I'm asked for input on a paint job the first thing said is "You didn't thin your paint did you?" This is then followed by being told I'm to critical and they like painting out of the pot becasue thinning is too much work but they still pester me on how to be a better painter.

[[AWaC]Odin]

So I currently am having problems with two hobby related things;

- Painting skin, i simply can't get it to look even half decent. Always had problems with skin.

- My level of detail. I basecoat, then I wash. I want to take it to the next level so it's not obviously washed, so highlighting I guess? Do I highlight over the wash in the original colour?

Many thanks in advance for any advice guys!

Rule one of great painting, water down your paints. Just remember; Water down your paints, win a golden demon. To water down your paints, you will want to use about a 60/40 paint to water ratio to start. When applying the paint it will go on thin, that's ok, you just need to use more layers. This has an added effect of a natural faded look that makes your colors really stand out.

Now, when it comes to painting skin, you will be using your new watered down painting style to start. The simplest way is the base/wash method (Also call Devlan Magic/Miracle) where you paint the skin color you want onto your model, than apply a dark brown wash. Bam! Done.

Next skin technique will also cover the 'Bringing up my level of detail' question.

Model quality is normally broken down into levels, with 6-7 (depending on the description) being the top quality. Each level represents a layer of color and highlighting, with your average good model being a 2-3 and amazing models being a 6-7 levels. When broken down they are:

Level 0: Primer (If you mess this part up, its all over. So don't skimp on the primer)

Level 1: Foundation (Your darkest colors that set the tone for the rest of your model)

Level 2: Paint color 1 (Your basic paint color, and will be your shadow color)

Level 3: Paint color 2 (A first level of 'highlight', applied to everything but the recesses)

Level 4: Highlight 1 ('Thick' thin lines, a thin layer of paint on the highest areas)

Level 5: Highlight 2 (Thinner lines on top of the first highlight, very thin lines here)

Level 6: Eyes and Details (To do good lines and details takes time a practice)

Other tips when painting are:

• Only dry brush your foundation of metal, hand paint the rest.
  
• When painting eyes and details, avoid pure white and black colors. They lead to making the model look 'fake'. My method for painting 'black dot' eyes is a thin dark grey base, dot the eye with a black dot, than a thin grey over the dark gray, than light grey over grey, than a very thin white over the whole eye. This lightness up the 'black dot' and makes the eye have that color pop without over doing it. And that's a level 5 eyes. For details, like words, use 75/25 dark brown/black instead of just black.
  
• You will notice the lack of washes in the Level 0-6 description, the reason being the effect matt finishes have on washes (which is never a good one). The top painters don't relay on them for that reason, so you shouldn't either for your best paint jobs.
  

When deciding what colors you will need, just follow any handy dandy painting guild provided by the company you are buying paints from (GW has a really solid one with pictures and everything).

Good luck with your painting, and practice practice practice.