Foton Posted January 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2012 I watched the very situation you describe happen to my pandora list today. Nicodem just overwhelmed me. It was pretty painful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shank Seamus! Posted January 22, 2012 Report Share Posted January 22, 2012 I've seen the pigapult 1st activation of the game, kill an entire pandora crew and reduce the little lady to 2wounds.. yes she has her thing that she's great at, but drop those sorrows/dg and she may aswell go home. Some masters do have upperhands over others.. but let's not forget that the games won with tactics and luck if you let her set up and dictate to you, its you that's lost the game.. not her 'OP'd-ness' that's won it.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hazrat Posted January 22, 2012 Report Share Posted January 22, 2012 This would be nice but is unfortunately not true. Like the post above says, Somer and Ophilia will almost never beat Hamelin, and Leveticus will never beat Dreamer. They're just 2 examples You need to stop looking at what the abilities do and look at the cards. I've seen Leveticus beat Dreamer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tadaka Posted January 23, 2012 Report Share Posted January 23, 2012 Levi beating dreamer is all ways one of 2 things. Cards going insanly bad or the dreamer player not understanding how to use his crew. I have watched chomp kill levi before he ever.gets an activation so many times its not funny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hazrat Posted January 23, 2012 Report Share Posted January 23, 2012 It was the cards, which is what I've been saying. Although I will modify my original statement. Masters with a reduced hand size have a lower chance whereas masters with an increase have a higher chance. So most masters have an equal chance against most masters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigkid Posted January 23, 2012 Report Share Posted January 23, 2012 I've seen the pigapult 1st activation of the game, kill an entire pandora crew and reduce the little lady to 2wounds.. yes she has her thing that she's great at, but drop those sorrows/dg and she may aswell go home. Some masters do have upperhands over others.. but let's not forget that the games won with tactics and luck if you let her set up and dictate to you, its you that's lost the game.. not her 'OP'd-ness' that's won it.. Happy days! I'll just re-emphasise the previous posts in saying that Pandora seems ridiculously over-powered until you work her out (DG is very easy to kill and once she/it is gone it's a matter of mopping up). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicpockets Posted January 23, 2012 Report Share Posted January 23, 2012 You need to stop looking at what the abilities do and look at the cards. I've seen Leveticus beat Dreamer. I've played Levi against Dreamer quite a lot of times and LCB + 2x Stitched will kill Levi in one turn almost guaranteed. And I doubt me losing is down to my skill level. It was the cards, which is what I've been saying. Although I will modify my original statement. Masters with a reduced hand size have a lower chance whereas masters with an increase have a higher chance. So most masters have an equal chance against most masters. This is so ****** - what you're saying is that masters have an equal chance against every other master as long as one master flips crap cards and the other flips good cards. Where I come from that's not an equal chance. An equal chance is both masters flipping the same "level" of cards and it being 50/50 as to who will win. With equal cards and equal player skill levels, the top power crews (eg Hamelin, Dreamer, Kirai, Pandora) will absolutely destroy the lower ranked crews (eg Rasputina, Sonnia, Lady J, Ramos etc) Happy days! I'll just re-emphasise the previous posts in saying that Pandora seems ridiculously over-powered until you work her out (DG is very easy to kill and once she/it is gone it's a matter of mopping up). +1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hazrat Posted January 23, 2012 Report Share Posted January 23, 2012 (edited) But you're not looking at it from the cards. Cards are not equal, dice are equal. You have 54 cards that slowly diminish in a round. The odds keep changing every time a card is played. You need to know how to work a deck. Take some statistics and probability classes and maybe you'll see what I say is true. But let's agree to diasgree. I look at things from a statistical stand point, you look at it from a competitive stand point. Edited January 23, 2012 by Hazrat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike3838 Posted January 23, 2012 Report Share Posted January 23, 2012 You're not making any sense Hazrat. You're claiming that all Masters are equal strength as a direct consequence of them having the same size hand? Completely disregarding the different abilities. There are two types of cards in the game, and you're neglecting to consider the Stat cards. Telling someone to take some probability classes is a little condescending. Nobody is contesting the fact that with both decks stacked a certain way, Levi could beat the Dreamer, just that it's statistically unlikely. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hazrat Posted January 23, 2012 Report Share Posted January 23, 2012 I'm not saying hand size makes it equal, I'm saying knowing the deck makes it equal. Hand size gives you known variable, making it easier to figure out the deck. And besides, unless your schemes and strategies directly involve taking out the model, the abilities don't matter. I think that people are getting hung up on the idea that the only way to win a game is to kill the opponent's models. Playing like that is not fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adanedhel Posted January 23, 2012 Report Share Posted January 23, 2012 Small question magic, I've not faced Dreamer as of yet, so am a bit unsure as to how to deal with him, but would Levi being able to hire a second waif of the bat for 2 SS, and being able to summon them in 6", rather then in base contact help out vs dreamer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adanedhel Posted January 23, 2012 Report Share Posted January 23, 2012 Hazrat, that is plain and simple bull$$$$$$$$, really I've played my dora and levi vs the lilith of The Keeper (my most regular opponent) a lot of times, both players are approximately equal skill, and with levi I'm having a hard time winning against him, with Dora I tend to slaughter him, do you think that is because I just forget how to count cards while playing Levi? Though I agree Dora is not all that overpowered, she has got significant weaknesses, she just seems unfun to play against (though I love her style, and like nothing more then facing her with levi (I hate mirror matchups, so I'll take Levi vs her )) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hazrat Posted January 23, 2012 Report Share Posted January 23, 2012 You know what, I'm done. I'll keep my statistical knowledge to myself and for myself. You people obviously don't understand that when you look at the game from a statistical and objective completing stand point, most are equal. I'm obviously dealing with the population that are below average intelligence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adanedhel Posted January 23, 2012 Report Share Posted January 23, 2012 Hazrat, telling that to a physisist, who is trying to get ELOratings in his own environment might not be the most easy to back up statement thinkable. I am perfectly aware how the fatedeck mechanism works, but that deos not get around the fact that some match ups are just not possible regardless of deck. Let's think in easy ways, as in Hamelin with only stolen to start, vs Ophelia with only Bayou gremlins to start, now give me one way to mathematically let Ophelia win, without hamelin being entirely idiotic in play Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike3838 Posted January 23, 2012 Report Share Posted January 23, 2012 Yes, obviously we don't know what we're talking about and we need someone who's been playing the game (any game!) for less than a month to tell us how stupid we are. When Chompy drops on top of Levi and eats him and both your Waifs, you'll lose, regardless of how well you "know the deck" (if that were possible) Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adanedhel Posted January 23, 2012 Report Share Posted January 23, 2012 Mike3838, Levi only starts with one Waif, which is in base contact, if this weren't the case, Levi could at least spread his waifs out, adn keep his card to cheat on Gamble your life, and throw all his minions at those 2 Stitcheds, just to get rid of those before they form a real threat. I am not aware of dreamer all that wel, but it just seems like an idea to help him? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike3838 Posted January 23, 2012 Report Share Posted January 23, 2012 True. I'm not that familiar with Levi, but just threw in an example to show that there clearly *are* matchups where abilities (ie. Chompy's ability to drop his crew on your master Turn 1) dictate what happens almost regardless of how the cards come out. Having just 1 waif makes it even worse. Luckily this will never happen to Hazrat because his vast intellect will save him every time. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicpockets Posted January 23, 2012 Report Share Posted January 23, 2012 I'm not saying hand size makes it equal, I'm saying knowing the deck makes it equal. Hand size gives you known variable, making it easier to figure out the deck. And besides, unless your schemes and strategies directly involve taking out the model, the abilities don't matter. I think that people are getting hung up on the idea that the only way to win a game is to kill the opponent's models. Playing like that is not fun. Wow, I wish I'd had the benefit of your insight before going to the UK Masters event. Maybe I'd have won. Oh, hang on..... You people obviously don't understand that when you look at the game from a statistical and objective completing stand point, most are equal. I'm obviously dealing with the population that are below average intelligence. The insult aside, how is (for example) LCB with Cb 5 and paired attacks dropping on Levi with Df2 statistically equal? Don't just throw your toys out the pram, defend your position and make your point. Small question magic, I've not faced Dreamer as of yet, so am a bit unsure as to how to deal with him, but would Levi being able to hire a second waif of the bat for 2 SS, and being able to summon them in 6", rather then in base contact help out vs dreamer? Unfortunately you can't hire waifs, you only get them in play. And the problem is as you can only move waifs so far away from Hamelin in an activation that LCB drops on Levi and a stitched on each waif no matter what you do. The waifs are wp->9 but with potentially 4 or 6 attacks from each stitched they're going to die. ANd that's discounting the rest of his 35ss (or whatever) crew he can call on Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adanedhel Posted January 23, 2012 Report Share Posted January 23, 2012 I am aware you can't magic, it was more a question if I could, would that be able to solve things, but indeed, even if I get them all killed before they activate (and no idea how I'm going to do that), I still would have to wither 4 attacks minimum because of that blaste Does Not Die., giving the Waifs use soulstone would help level the field vs dreamer, but would massively break Levi vs every other master. Is there actually any crew which stand an equal chance vs Dreamer, unless completely melee, or nonranged spell based, with high defences? EDIT: btw congratulations on your victory magic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
micahwc Posted January 23, 2012 Report Share Posted January 23, 2012 How did this topic get so de-railed? Suggestions for adding on to Pandora turned in to how OP Pandora is, which in turn somehow turned into how to beat the Dreamer with Levi? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adanedhel Posted January 23, 2012 Report Share Posted January 23, 2012 micahwc see it's called Phil's law on Malifaux discussion Given a discussion about malifaux, the chance of it derailing into a thread about the overpowerdness of Dreamer approaches 1 with sufficient lenght of discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy in Suit Posted January 23, 2012 Report Share Posted January 23, 2012 How did this topic get so de-railed? Suggestions for adding on to Pandora turned in to how OP Pandora is, which in turn somehow turned into how to beat the Dreamer with Levi? Flyover-State trolls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
micahwc Posted January 23, 2012 Report Share Posted January 23, 2012 micahwc see it's called Phil's law on Malifaux discussion Given a discussion about malifaux, the chance of it derailing into a thread about the overpowerdness of Dreamer approaches 1 with sufficient lenght of discussion. True. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foton Posted January 24, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2012 I feel like the derailment is my fault. I started going through the suggestions and lists. Playing them. Pandora rocks. And those lists are awesome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicpockets Posted January 24, 2012 Report Share Posted January 24, 2012 (edited) Given a discussion about malifaux, the chance of it derailing into a thread about the overpowerdness of Dreamer approaches 1 with sufficient lenght of discussion. Awesome, that's my new sig now. :focus: Edited January 24, 2012 by magicpockets Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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