CannonFodder Posted January 10, 2012 Report Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) I was playing a game today, and had one of those perfect starts. I was playing Zoraida and brought in Rami? (The gremlins sniper, which is why I put this in Outcast thread). One of my schemes was kill protege and my opponent had a Mature Nephelim. I lost initiative and my opponent activated first. His plan was to use Lilith to do a (0) and make the Mature hide, so I can't use voodoo doll on him (after new poison ruling). Which he did, but then moves up to mid table and takes cover. I activate the gremlin Sniper, Move him, (0) to get the +2 aiming bonus on her. The used reckless to focus a shot on Lilith. With hunter and the I won the flips, my opponent cheats to a point were he expects to take a on damage forgetting the Focusing. I Cheat with a 13:rams getting the trigger for dumb luck. Damage flip was a moderate, but cheat-able. Red Joker followed by a moderate (4+3)x2 = 14. My guy self destructed in an instant from the recoil, but the game basically ended before my opponent got a second activation. I know this is just me gloating, but I had to post. Edited January 10, 2012 by CannonFodder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poulpox Posted January 10, 2012 Report Share Posted January 10, 2012 Hi! Sorry but I don't see how new poison errata affects the targeting of the Mature Neph with Voodoo Doll? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicpockets Posted January 10, 2012 Report Share Posted January 10, 2012 hi! Sorry but i don't see how new poison errata affects the targeting of the mature neph with voodoo doll? +1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigkid Posted January 10, 2012 Report Share Posted January 10, 2012 Is this allowed? I thought a model couldn't take an action that would reduced it to less than one wound? Don't have me rulebook to hand at the moment and don't get me wrong, as a shiney new Gremlin player I'm eager to know if I can do this! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malandres Posted January 10, 2012 Report Share Posted January 10, 2012 I think its if the action specifically states wounds....i think you can do an action that causes damage and still get away with it....i hope so as otherwise my papa loco been cheating lots... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicpockets Posted January 10, 2012 Report Share Posted January 10, 2012 Is this allowed? I thought a model couldn't take an action that would reduced it to less than one wound? Don't have me rulebook to hand at the moment and don't get me wrong, as a shiney new Gremlin player I'm eager to know if I can do this! It's the trigger killing him not an action, so is fine I think I think its if the action specifically states wounds....i think you can do an action that causes damage and still get away with it....i hope so as otherwise my papa loco been cheating lots... No, got "clarified" by Sketch you cannot do anything that would end up killing or sacrificing the acting model unless the ability specifically states it can be used that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malandres Posted January 10, 2012 Report Share Posted January 10, 2012 ahhhh ok awesome so no more.....companion with abuela and perdita for double charge then a move with loco followed by take ya with me followed by boom then Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cunning Posted January 10, 2012 Report Share Posted January 10, 2012 You only cant do it if it would definitely kill the model. An action or trigger that may kill the model (variable wds caused for example) is fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malandres Posted January 10, 2012 Report Share Posted January 10, 2012 so my loco tactic is still good then as boom does damage not wounds? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cunning Posted January 10, 2012 Report Share Posted January 10, 2012 It's not about whether it does wounds or damage. If an action or trigger caused a set number of wds/dg and that figure is greater than the wds you have left then you may not use it. If there's a chance that it may not kill the model then it's fine. At least that's how i've always interpreted the rulings about this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malandres Posted January 10, 2012 Report Share Posted January 10, 2012 oh right....well ill have to double check the ruling then and use it that way...if the opponent disagrees we'll flip for it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cunning Posted January 10, 2012 Report Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) Looking at the card it appears you can use Take Ya With Me to kill Papa Loco. But the card specifically says that Boom! does not activate if it kills him. EDIT: Thinking about it, it does seem that if an action causes dg then it may kill the model. Otherwise Take Ya With Me doesn't make any sense. Edited January 10, 2012 by CunningStunt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malandres Posted January 10, 2012 Report Share Posted January 10, 2012 yeah....i used to do take ya wit me...then in combat the following they'd either run or kill him resulting in boom or another take ya with me...i love using perdita and abuela to obey him (companion all 3 and use their obeys to charge him) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicpockets Posted January 10, 2012 Report Share Posted January 10, 2012 It's not about whether it does wounds or damage. If an action or trigger caused a set number of wds/dg and that figure is greater than the wds you have left then you may not use it. If there's a chance that it may not kill the model then it's fine. At least that's how i've always interpreted the rulings about this. That's right, it's about certainly dead/sacrificed or "maybe it work work" dead/sacrificed Best question ever came up on this subject - Let's say you have only a few cards left in your deck, and you're playing against Dustin Hoffman's character in Rain Man. You try to use take ya with me with an obeyed papa loco with less than six wounds, and remind your opponent that you can because you might fail the casting duel. But Dustin Hoffman informs you that you've already flipped all the cards that are lower than five in the deck, so you actually CAN'T fail the casting duel. You check your discard pile, and Dustin Hoffman is right. What happens? I guess you can't cast it? Was ruled that even then you could cast it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malandres Posted January 10, 2012 Report Share Posted January 10, 2012 i dont think id play rain man heh....very good point though, the other one is papa lacroix with his abilities from a pigapult Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cunning Posted January 10, 2012 Report Share Posted January 10, 2012 That's right, it's about certainly dead/sacrificed or "maybe it work work" dead/sacrificed Best question ever came up on this subject - Was ruled that even then you could cast it Yeah but that's not because you may not cast the spell. Otherwise there'd be no issue with Levi's spell killing him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malandres Posted January 10, 2012 Report Share Posted January 10, 2012 Very true!! I think ill talk with the club tonight see what everyone thinks on this and post something tomorrow about it...could be an interesting debate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CannonFodder Posted January 10, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) The way I read the the ability about doing actions that would kill a model is that If the damage/wounds are a part of the cost you can't do it. Ie taking a damage for reckless. If the damage/wounds are a part of the effect you can do it. ie Dumb Luck or Papa loco\Pierre Ravage Its not a matter of trigger or ability, its a mater of cost or effect. For example the gremlin (raphael?) who has a trigger that lets him get a free shot for a wound can't spend his last wnd for a shot because its cost for the shot. The dumb luck is possible because its an effect of the damage. Edited January 10, 2012 by CannonFodder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
micahwc Posted January 10, 2012 Report Share Posted January 10, 2012 I was playing a game today, and had one of those perfect starts. I was playing Zoraida and brought in Rami? (The gremlins sniper, which is why I put this in Outcast thread). One of my schemes was kill protege and my opponent had a Mature Nephelim. I lost initiative and my opponent activated first. His plan was to use Lilith to do a (0) and make the Mature hide, so I can't use voodoo doll on him (after new poison ruling). Which he did, but then moves up to mid table and takes cover. I activate the gremlin Sniper, Move him, (0) to get the +2 aiming bonus on her. The used reckless to focus a shot on Lilith. With hunter and the I won the flips, my opponent cheats to a point were he expects to take a on damage forgetting the Focusing. I Cheat with a 13:ram getting the trigger for dumb luck. Damage flip was a moderate, but cheat-able. Red Joker followed by a moderate (4+3)x2 = 14. My guy self destructed in an instant from the recoil, but the basically ended before my opponent got a second activation. I know this is just me gloating, but I had to post. So... Lilith walked out into the open in front of a Gremlin gunline and got shot to death very quickly. Good to know. I will avoid doing this from now on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cunning Posted January 10, 2012 Report Share Posted January 10, 2012 The way I read the the ability about doing actions that would kill a model is that If the damage/wounds are a part of the cost you can't do it. Ie taking a damage for reckless. If the damage/wounds are a part of the effect you can do it. ie Dumb Luck or Papa loco\Pierre Ravage Its not a matter of trigger or ability, its a mater of cost or effect. For example the gremlin (raphael?) who has a trigger that lets him get a free shot for a wound can't spend his last wnd for a shot because its cost for the shot. The dumb luck is possible because its an effect of the damage. Again Levi shows this is not the case. Most of his spells cause him to lose wds as an effect of the spell. Some he can't cast if it would kill him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sybaris Posted January 10, 2012 Report Share Posted January 10, 2012 With a red joker on dmg flip i don't really see it hard to kill lilith, or anyone for that matter. It's the end all of dmg flips. That said, is the dmg doubled for dumb luck on the second flip as well? As for taking actions that can kill your model, you cannot take one if it takes wounds below 1, but you can take dmg regardless of how many wounds you have. The example in the rules manual mentions the punk zombie unable to use its action because it has too few wounds remaining, but papa loco able to go poof regardless. So there is a difference between actions that inflict wounds and others that inflict damage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CannonFodder Posted January 10, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2012 Again Levi shows this is not the case. Most of his spells cause him to lose wds as an effect of the spell. Some he can't cast if it would kill him. This model can reduce its Wd to 0in this way. Levis spells and abilities specifically say they can reduce his wounds to 0 allowing it to break the cost restriction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueStar86 Posted January 10, 2012 Report Share Posted January 10, 2012 With a red joker on dmg flip i don't really see it hard to kill lilith, or anyone for that matter. It's the end all of dmg flips. That said, is the dmg doubled for dumb luck on the second flip as well? As for taking actions that can kill your model, you cannot take one if it takes wounds below 1, but you can take dmg regardless of how many wounds you have. The example in the rules manual mentions the punk zombie unable to use its action because it has too few wounds remaining, but papa loco able to go poof regardless. So there is a difference between actions that inflict wounds and others that inflict damage. At the start of the game? The only one I can think of surviving it off-hand is Von Schill, he has that mean combination of Slow to Die, and Use SS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cunning Posted January 10, 2012 Report Share Posted January 10, 2012 Levis spells and abilities specifically say they can reduce his wounds to 0 allowing it to break the cost restriction. Some of them do. Some don't. Also by your interpretation he wouldn't need this as it isn't a cost of the spell but an effect. In the same way as Papa Loco's Take Ya With Me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cunning Posted January 10, 2012 Report Share Posted January 10, 2012 In response to the original post. I would always soulstone a shot from Rami if I though Lilith might get hit. The same with anyone else who could kill her with one hit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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