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Is collodi the hamelin killer?


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Just to update this thread from the UK Masters (find us on Twitter with #mfauxm) re Hamelin vs Collodi.

So far I've only ended up playing Collodi once during practice so not as much to feedback on this as I'd hoped. However in that game Collodi went down like a proverbial sack of **** - and the Collodi player agrees he has no chance against Hamelin (move Hamelin in, irresistible lure and followed up with Nix - or could use Nix with multiple obediences from Hamelin for 5 attacks/charges etc)

If you think they're packing Hamelin, just leave Collodi at home. It's bad enough that you have other Ht 1 minions you have to think carefully about taking. The only time I would even think about it, would be on Destroy the Evidence to grab markers in the first activation. And then just let Collodi die, save cards and SS for your other models.

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I'm not sure why you guys have got this idea in your heads that Collodi is particularly better against Hamelin than anything else. He doesn't do anything special that Hamelin has to worry about.

In fact, Collodi is pretty overrated in general to be honest. Whenever I kill Collodi - which I make a point of doing often, since he's pretty weak - people often remark "ah my Collodi doesn't die very often/at all" which leads me to believe that a lot of people simply don't play against him correctly.

His major claim to fame is that he can grab turn 1 Shared Destroy evidence markers, but there are many models/combos in the game that can do that too (or at least place models around it to stop the opponent doing it).

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His major claim to fame is that he can grab turn 1 Shared Destroy evidence markers, but there are many models/combos in the game that can do that too (or at least place models around it to stop the opponent doing it).

Collodi can destroy all four markers in the first activation of the game - I'm not sure of any other crew that can do that or even come close?

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Terrain depending yeh, but that's not unique to playing against Hamelin so doesnt particularly make him a Hamelin killer.

100% agree on that point, just checking you knew about his brokenness in shared/normal DTE - and terrain isn't usually that much of a problem (enemy melee range on the deployment zone counter is though).

I think he's great as a "shock troop", but once you get used to killing 2x Marionettes asap he really struggles I think. And against Hamelin he has everything stacked against him imo.

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100% agree on that point, just checking you knew about his brokenness in shared/normal DTE - and terrain isn't usually that much of a problem (enemy melee range on the deployment zone counter is though).

Definately agree that he is strong in this particular strategy, however it can be prepared for and countered a bit as you point out (with thoughtful initial deployment and initiative)

I think he's great as a "shock troop", but once you get used to killing 2x Marionettes asap he really struggles I think. And against Hamelin he has everything stacked against him imo.

Definately agree with this.

I like Collodi but his crew is way to dependent upon him (both in terms of buffing and of course remaining alive). If your opponent weathers the storm of dolls, Collodi will usually fall very quickly.

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I'm not sure why you guys have got this idea in your heads that Collodi is particularly better against Hamelin than anything else. He doesn't do anything special that Hamelin has to worry about.

The whole reason I suggested collodi is that he does in fact do something special against Hamelin- he neuters Hamelin's tactic of making the enemy insignificant. At that point Hamelin has to actually fight for VP.

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The whole reason I suggested collodi is that he does in fact do something special against Hamelin- he neuters Hamelin's tactic of making the enemy insignificant. At that point Hamelin has to actually fight for VP.

You could remove Hamelin's insignificance-granting affecting VP altogether and he'd still be a top master. In any strategy that requires lots of models, he has a huge advantage (assuming a good enough player piloting him, of course) because you simply can't remove his models from the board.

So without turning this into a Hamelin thread, I'd say no, Collodi's "my dolls are still significant" ability does very little on its own to make him better against Hamelin. It's a tool in your box if you decide to run Collodi but not something that's going to hugely swing the game.

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Hamelin can get VP just fine without making everything insignificant. He can also kill things very well...even if they are significant. The whole "insignificant" thing is just one aspect of Hamelin, and some Hamelin players tend to abuse it and use it to win games....which works until people figure out that insig isn't the end of the world.

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Hamelin can get VP just fine without making everything insignificant. He can also kill things very well...even if they are significant. The whole "insignificant" thing is just one aspect of Hamelin, and some Hamelin players tend to abuse it and use it to win games....which works until people figure out that insig isn't the end of the world.

It's not?!

Oh...Sorry.

I think I said it somewhere in this thread that I'd taken an objective with my significant models, but managed to hold onto them, even though those same models became insignificant. I also may have even used my Student of Conflict to make one of them significant to grab the last objective I needed.

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The whole reason I suggested collodi is that he does in fact do something special against Hamelin- he neuters Hamelin's tactic of making the enemy insignificant. At that point Hamelin has to actually fight for VP.

Keep in mind Collodi only makes the Dolls significant, Hamelin can still tag Collodi and the Weaver Widow (or any non doll model) with Insignificant.

As has been said that part is nice but it isn't his only strength (especially when the majority of your crew can't target him anyway because of their Ht). This allows him plenty of freedom to focus on other things (Achieving VP's or killing Collodi).

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Im always wondering why so many players have problems with collodi. He is fast, i agree as is Colette and markus or every other "huehue i grab objectives really fast" crew. Every faction has an answer to collodi, be it aoe damage or shenanigans against constructs. I know this is a little bit of topic because i don't mention Hamelin but i just wanted to share my views on this and opening a new thread wouldn't be worth it.

And how can Collodi grab all objective counters in round one? This alone wouldnt be possible in my LGS simply because of the terrain. To ensure that stuff like that doesn't happen we place terrain in a way that even chances for both players are granted.

Sorry if this sounds like general rage but i just think that Collodi is yet another "op because forum says so/flavour of the month" master.

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*This post is less about Hamelin v Collodi and instead follows the Collodi debate*

See I like Collodi right-hes quick, hes got an awesome background, I love special forces dolls, he works well with zoraida etc etc. The reason I have not really used him all that much is because of this bandwagon everyones on. And besides which for the opponents I play von schill is a far more dangerous piece to take. Yeah he is great-if you can get dolls into position early on and cast "filled with stones" hes great. If you can deal some hurt and get scrap counters hes great. Is he an autopick, no.

Regarding the main debate I know that many regard the dreamer and Pandora to be the best masters in the game. Having half-watched magic pockets Hamlelin master and having only played against it once it is by far the crew I would like to face the least. Trying to slap rat catchers to stop rate, stolen so hamelin will actually die is hard enough but throw Nix into the bargain....

Complete theory faux but the only way I can think of to deal with that crew with models I use is to conduit Nix with voodoo doll then Hex of his nastier abilities and obey it to kill stolen and rat catchers (although I am sure someone will have a reason why this isnt viable).

A good friend and opponent of mine recently got a Hoff crew, the other choice was Hamelin. Purely from an opponents point of view i'm glad he chose Hoff, as I havent enjoyed playing against him/watching him so far...

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And how can Collodi grab all objective counters in round one? This alone wouldnt be possible in my LGS simply because of the terrain. To ensure that stuff like that doesn't happen we place terrain in a way that even chances for both players are granted.

Terrain doesn't really matter, I can do it on pretty much any board. To be fair, it's kind of an "ah ha" moment when you first see it - I might do a YouTube video to show how it works if I get chance.

Complete theory faux but the only way I can think of to deal with that crew with models I use is to conduit Nix with voodoo doll then Hex of his nastier abilities and obey it to kill stolen and rat catchers (although I am sure someone will have a reason why this isnt viable).

Hexing Nix is a great tactic, get rid of Emptiness and he loses so much of his potency, plus the poison can help take him out as it ignores Spirit. Also, obeying him to kill stuff is useful (although with one attack he struggles to drop the overall mode count) but there's more to it than that, obey him to kill a stolen and you get to do the WP->13 to avoid Nix being Paralyzed.... ;)

Edited by magicpockets
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Sorry if this sounds like general rage but i just think that Collodi is yet another "op because forum says so/flavour of the month" master.

Nope, you're 100% right... Collodi isn't OP at all. He's good at certain things, much like everything else in Malifaux is good at certain things.

Except Ramos. He isn't good at anything.

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Hexing Nix is a great tactic, get rid of Emptiness and he loses so much of his potency, plus the poison can help take him out as it ignores Spirit. Also, obeying him to kill stuff is useful (although with one attack he struggles to drop the overall mode count) but there's more to it than that, obey him to kill a stolen and you get to do the WP->13 to avoid Nix being Paralyzed.... ;)

If you neuter Nix and kill off the rat catchers ( in rat based lists) I take it Hamelin becomes much easier to play against?

As something of an expert on Hamelin (having seen you play!) what do you think to the following. Are any ideas relevant?

I would look at taking collodi, not as a "hamelin killer" but more as a buff character. Could you take him with only 1 or 2 marionettes and use him to "fill with stones", wp boost and heal some stitched together (whilst also preserving their significance)?

Would this or a similar tactic let you take the fight to Hamelin a little (or rather his crew?) I would be using Z as the master here. Neuter Nix, kill stolen and pick off the Rat catchers. Yay or nay?

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I would look at taking collodi, not as a "hamelin killer" but more as a buff character. Could you take him with only 1 or 2 marionettes and use him to "fill with stones", wp boost and heal some stitched together (whilst also preserving their significance)?

Would this or a similar tactic let you take the fight to Hamelin a little (or rather his crew?) I would be using Z as the master here. Neuter Nix, kill stolen and pick off the Rat catchers. Yay or nay?

It is a bit too expensive and fragile in my opinion (10 SS for just Collodi and the mandatory Marionette) without really addressing the other things Hamelin can do well (as has been said making things insignificant is only one part of it).

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As has been said that part is nice but it isn't his only strength (especially when the majority of your crew can't target him anyway because of their Ht). This allows him plenty of freedom to focus on other things (Achieving VP's or killing Collodi).

I never said it was his only strengths but its a pretty huge one, anytime you get rid of an enemy's strength it, you know, helps. Taking constructs against Seamus doesn't get rid of all his strengths but it neuters terrify which is damn helpful (at least until the avatar comes out). Same idea.

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It is a bit too expensive and fragile in my opinion (10 SS for just Collodi and the mandatory Marionette) without really addressing the other things Hamelin can do well (as has been said making things insignificant is only one part of it).

the other things Hamelin does well is make more of his own troops but in order to do so he really has to catch your troops. Without catching yours it's just 1 rat a turn after summoning and sacrificing a stolen.

Hence again Collodi seems like a really good choice. But I've been going over this for 12 pages now, if we;re still disagreeing on the most fundamental aspects of the debate then I'm not sure I see a point to continuing. I literally can't think of any new ways to say the same things again.

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I never said it was his only strengths but its a pretty huge one, anytime you get rid of an enemy's strength it, you know, helps. Taking constructs against Seamus doesn't get rid of all his strengths but it neuters terrify which is damn helpful (at least until the avatar comes out). Same idea.

I get the idea (and think it has some merit) but Hamelin has a lot of answers for Collodi (which isn't really true the other way around).

As for your Seamus analogy, I wouldn't consider terrifying a strength of his at all (from my experience over the last 2 years it is probably his least useful ability). I will agree that taking constructs against him nueters a few other things a bit though (Necrotic Ministrations mainly and Arise my Sweet since he now has to depend upon his own models for Corpse counters).

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I never said it was his only strengths but its a pretty huge one, anytime you get rid of an enemy's strength it, you know, helps.

I think in the seven games I won during the UK Masters event I made two models insignificant. I really don't find it a key part of Hamelin's mechanism, it's more situational depending on the models and strategies/schemes in question. He and his crew are better played aggressively in melee.

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the other things Hamelin does well is make more of his own troops but in order to do so he really has to catch your troops. Without catching yours it's just 1 rat a turn after summoning and sacrificing a stolen.

Dont really agree with this. Hamelin's crew can and will catch your troops when they move in to strike (especially true since Collodi's Strike force relies so heavily on melee strikes to deliver the Dg).

Additionally, Collodi's ability to move around the board is very good but he does leave a trail as he goes (himself included unless he reserves a few of the last marionettes AP to pull him a bit out of harms way and reducing the strike forces overall damage potential).

I do agree that creating more models for free is a nice benefit for Hamelin but it is also a very pervasive (and passive) ability within the crew, it is very difficult to avoid giving him free models during the game (esepecially with a fluffy vanilla crew). If a player does manage to limit the free models his killed troops provide Hamelin, then the 1 rat a turn method above actually introduces/ contributes to another dilema/strength in that it adds two more complete model activation.

Hamelin really is a total package and tough nut to crack (even with crews designed specifically for it). This is the reason why I have campaigned rather hard on here to rebalance him (I definately appreciated Magicpockets contribution to that thread).

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