Jump to content

Is collodi the hamelin killer?


011121

Recommended Posts

  • Replies 121
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Out of curiousity with the blight tokens is the extra damage part of the attack's damage or separate? Specifically I'm wondering if you have armor 2 and you get bit for 2 + 1 from the blight do you take 1 (3-2) or 2 (2-2, with a min of 1, + 1-2, with a min of 1) total?

Can someone post the wording of the rule this pertains to?

I only have the rules manual :(

Link to comment
Share on other sites

it is in the RM (page 19 where they talk about tokens)

"Blight Tokens: Whenever a model with one or more Blight Tokens suffers Wd, it suffers 1 additional Wd."

Which actually sounds more like +1Wd to me personally but I don't know for sure and doesn't matter as far as armor anyway.

Edited by 011121
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks guys, I thought maybe we were talking about something on the Hamelin/Nix/Rat card.

Has anyone done a search to see whether the issue with blight tokens/object has been asked about already? I'm about to pick up Hamelin, and my friends starting Colette, so I'm sort of curious myself.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When are you going to find dolls outside of Collodi's buff? Pretty much the only time are those marionettes that were part of the leapfrog movement. But again those guys cannot be moved more than 8" from collodi, which makes lure pretty useless against them (unless hamelin was standing in base to base when casting it).

When Hamelin decides to cast Irresistable Lure at max range to Collodi (which is a 12 :pulse) cheats and soulstones the duel total high enough where even the Red Joker wont protect against it (this takes into account the Wp Buff from Collodi). When he succeeds every one of the dolls in the Aura is moving its Wk toward Hamelin and potentialy out of range of Collodi's buffs (if they began in B2B with Collodi , however this doesn't take into account severe and impassable terrain limiting the Wk distance) and potentially out of range of the Holding the Strings Aura. Once out of range of the Auras then Collodi is going to have to be moved back into position to buff those models again (costing either a 0 or 1 action from a marrionette or 1 AP from Collodi).

If he casts it again (now without the WP buff on those models) he can pretty much guarantee the marrionettes are out of range of Holding the Strings forcing Collodi to activate first to get back into position for buffing and mitigate the threat from Collodi's Holding the Strings since some will now be out of the 6" range (more than likely any models on the far side of Collodi from Hamelin) of the effect when his Activation ends (when Marionettes within 6" would get to activate immediately after him).

If you note the lists I suggested above I used Collodi as a master for the 25ss and Zoraida as a master for 35ss for precisely the reason you give- for a small game it's too expensive to have both a master and henchman. In terms of using Zoraida I'd try to move her with crow up to a highly inaccessable area in the first turn for two reasons-

1) better line of sight for voodoo doll summoning, and

2) to keep her away from enemy attacks

Hamelin's forces don;t have any flying or arachnid that I recall, except for Nix as a spirit, which helps with this sort of ploy. It's not always possible but often you can find a roof, ledge, mesa, something hard to get to. Since the wicked dolls once summoned can teleport to Collodi it works out fine for them. Producing a wicked doll is expensive for her in terms of Ap and the loss of opportunity to summon a VD. Still between her and the widow weaver you have significant ability to replace lost WDs and produce additional ones over the course of the game. I'd aim to have three on hand at most times so one could be killed and you'd still have wicked intentions going.

At 25 Soulstones, to really have a chance Collodi needs to bring the Weaver Widow (because of Ht 2 and Terrifiying). Terrifying being one of the better ways to really deal with the Rat Swarms and the Ht 2 getting around Bully and Ruffian (at least until Hamelin makes her insignificant anyways). There are several problems with this however:

  1. she is expensive to hire
  2. unique
  3. Requires Scrap and or Corpse tokens to really be effective (something that Hamelin's crew excels at denying her)
  4. slow compared to the rest of the crew (so LOS and Rg for her spells is more than likely going to become an issue)
  5. is not a Doll so can't benefit from Collodi's Abilites, spells or actions

At 35 Soulstones, Zoraida can be pretty effectively taken out of the equation do to positioning, though Raven grants flight and an increase to her Wk it does not produce a Wk action or Push (so you will have to use at least 1 general AP to move her into position). Once in position she will not be able to cast spells because of Raven and now wont have the 2 AP she needs to bring out a Voodoo Doll to conduit a model (she cant use Casting Expert since Create Voodoo Doll is not a spell but an action so only general AP).

This leaves you hoping that you will still be able to establish LOS to a key model in the Hamelin crew for Conduit with a Voodoo Doll being Summoned within 6" of her during the next turn (If you can do this it leaves you with only 1 Ap from Casting Expert to use for that turn).

At this point level the Weaver Widow suffers from the same problems as before only now it will be more noticeable since each crew will actually have only 35 Soulstones for hiring (vice the 7 SS advantage if Collodi leads).

Though I like your thinking it is a case of shadow games, and because of the difference in allocated resources, one that Hamelin's crew is more likely to win.

True but I'd try to use the WW (arachnid) and Zoraida's crow ability to move into hard to get to areas to prevent direct assault, rather than trying to keep them on the run. The Arcane Effigy is the one model in my list that's really kind of stuck and pretty vulnerable to being hunted down. Although it's not without some decent combat ability.

The Widow Weaver is another 9 point model in addition to Collodi and his compulsory Marionette (over half of your Soulstones availalble for hiring).

Though they may be able to position themselves to prevent direct assualts, they can also probably be ignored once there because of LOS and Range issues (caused by Intervening Terrain and models).

Zoraida especially because of Raven being the catalyst that moves her into position (limiting what she can do once there due to remaing AP).

And of course the Weaver Widow because she will more than likely be devouting her activations to either using Thread from Nightmares (and dumping 2 Control Cards) for material to cast Craft Doll (because there probably wont be a lot of Corpse or Scrap Counters lying about for her to pickup), or moving to establish LOS and Range for Exhale Terror & Breathe Life.

Thanks for checking (or just knowing). It still appears though that it's possible to strike before either ability is in play). In general Idd expect a Hamelin force to out activate a collodi force, since usually 6 models of the collodi force will all activate together (although maybe not since the rats in proximity all activate together too, right?). That gives the Hamelin player some significant advantages but they have to be careful about which actions they do first since those may be the only actions they get before the big attack comes.

As stated earlier by Nachtnebel, each Rat is usually going to get 2 complete (and seperate) activations per turn in addition to any extras you create by killing them within the aura of Voracious Rats. These are completely new models and since they are already Slow, aren't effected by it again because of the summoning. So though the Rats do usually have to simultaneously activate because of Flock, they will still usually contribute 2 (or more) activations per turn for out activation purposes.

Fair enough. So bringing in a stole takes 1/3 of hamelin's actions each turn. That's pretty good, and it's certainly easier than collodi's summon a marionette (a (2)), Z.'s summon a wicked (also a (2)), or the Widow weaver's summon a wicked (a (1) but needs a scrap which can be provided by another (1) and discarding 2 cards).

Rats can sacrifice scrap and corpse counters within 6" of them by using 0 actions. This would only be needed for stuff killed outside the Aura of Voracious Rats, since anything killed within it wont leave one anyway. These two things can dramatically reduce your ability to replace losses.

Honestly the growth aspects of a Hamelin list really don't worry me. If I can kill/hex the ratcatchers then I'll kill rats way faster than 1 a turn. If I can't kill the ratcatchers it's probably because he's all clustered up in a ball. Adding another rat to the ball just doesn't really matter.
Though I like your thinking, because of the realities of intervening terrain, Zoraida is more than likely going to have to move to establish LOS and/ or Range for her spells (unless she was able to summon a Voodoo Doll so it could Conduit the target model, which is a lot more difficult than it appears).

She really doesn't have the mobility to do this on her own without using Raven to position (and denying spell use) or benefitting from Conduit (if she can get a Voodoo Doll to establish it).

Also keep in mind that you will only be able to cast Obey on the selected Key Model once per activation unless using the Voodoo Doll's as well (and then they will need LOS, Range, to suceed at the Wp duel from Ruffian and a 10 or higher to cast it since Conduit doesn't benefit them).

I think you've been drastically overselling Hamelin's abilities but I'm not accusing you of being close minded. Please afford me the same courtesy.

I apologize for insinutating you are close minded (I do try to limit that when posting) I definately respect your opinion and have appreciated your contributions to the thread (they are emphasizing something I have been saying for awhile now).

Keep in mind though that several times you have said you haven't played much against Hamelin or his crew. I have played with and against Hamelin for a very long time (longer than most people in the community) and of course MagicPockets has played with him a bunch as well; drawing on only my experiences I am confident in saying I am not overselling his abilities (Judging by his post I tend to think that MagicPockets agrees with me).

One more after thought (to the wall of text above):

Though max Buffed Marionettes are certainly dangerous (I'll agree with that), there is a very easy way to deal with them...just kill Collodi. His Df and Wd's aren't great and he can only shunt Strikes via Marionettes if there is a Marionette with in 6" of him. Attached Strings means that when he dies they go with him.

Trying to protect him will limit your offensive capability, while ignoring it may very well cost you the game (especially if your opponent can weather the storm, something that Hamelin excels at).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As if my above post wasn't long enough huh?

it is in the RM (page 19 where they talk about tokens)

"Blight Tokens: Whenever a model with one or more Blight Tokens suffers Wd, it suffers 1 additional Wd."

Which actually sounds more like +1Wd to me personally but I don't know for sure and doesn't matter as far as armor anyway.

I am pretty sure that it adds to the Wds incurred from the intial strike and is not an additional damage source (though it shouldn't be reduced by Armor since it causes an additional Wd instead of Dg).

This should probably be asked about in the Rules forum though since the resolution of this could have some ramifications for the Hard to Kill ability in general.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When Hamelin decides to cast Irresistable Lure at max range to Collodi (which is a 12 :pulse) cheats and soulstones the duel total high enough where even the Red Joker wont protect against it (this takes into account the Wp Buff from Collodi). When he succeeds every one of the dolls in the Aura is moving its Wk toward Hamelin and potentialy out of range of Collodi's buffs

fair enough. I still don't see how this is a huge threat though. If he can get within 15" of Collodi then he's got a reasonable chance to lure in the wicked dolls to base to base. He has to get within 13" for the marionettes (a walk followed by 2 lures). There's no guarantee of the lure working on all the dolls unless he;s willing to burn a soulstone for the casts. And if the dolls do get pulled in they survive on a flip of light damage (dolls with filled with stones aren't killed by any flip). I can see how the lure could be very effective against some forces but it just doesn't seem to be here unless collodi does something stupid like stand next to hamelin on his turn.

If he casts it again (now without the WP buff on those models) he can pretty much guarantee the marrionettes are out of range of Holding the Strings forcing Collodi to activate first to get back into position for buffing and mitigate the threat from Collodi's Holding the Strings since some will now be out of the 6" range (more than likely any models on the far side of Collodi from Hamelin) of the effect when his Activation ends (when Marionettes within 6" would get to activate immediately after him).

In such a case all you have to do is activate collodi, use his (0) action to activate whatever marionette is still near him, then move so the lured marionettes are within 6" once his activation ends.

At 25 Soulstones, to really have a chance Collodi needs to bring the Weaver Widow (because of Ht 2 and Terrifiying). Terrifying being one of the better ways to really deal with the Rat Swarms and the Ht 2 getting around Bully and Ruffian (at least until Hamelin makes her insignificant anyways). There are several problems with this however:

  1. she is expensive to hire
  2. unique
  3. Requires Scrap and or Corpse tokens to really be effective (something that Hamelin's crew excels at denying her)
  4. slow compared to the rest of the crew (so LOS and Rg for her spells is more than likely going to become an issue)
  5. is not a Doll so can't benefit from Collodi's Abilites, spells or actions

I disagree with much of this. I gave an example 25ss list (reprinted here):

at 25ss

Collodi (-7ss)

4 marionettes (8ss)

2 wicked dolls (6ss)

Arcane Effigy (4ss)

Widow Weaver (9ss)

5ss pool

this list comfortably fits in the Widow Weaver. While she requires scrap counters her ability to manufacture them actually prevents Hamelin's usual ability to deny them. She can in a single activation create a scrap counter and manufacture a WD with it. It costs 2 cards but there's nothing Hamelin;s crew can do to prevent it other than killing her. She is slower than Collodi but since the dolls teleport to him if she plans to stay back and manufacture them this is no problem.

At 35 Soulstones, Zoraida can be pretty effectively taken out of the equation do to positioning, though Raven grants flight and an increase to her Wk it does not produce a Wk action or Push (so you will have to use at least 1 general AP to move her into position). Once in position she will not be able to cast spells because of Raven and now wont have the 2 AP she needs to bring out a Voodoo Doll to conduit a model (she cant use Casting Expert since Create Voodoo Doll is not a spell but an action so only general AP).

You do have to choose between repositioning and summoning a doll, that's true. But whereas you present it as a dilemma I think of it as tactical flexibility. If Hamelin sets up in the open then I pick and choose who to Voodoo. If he doesn't then he's already playing the way I want him to (pinned down and not moving) while I use my actions instead to summon a WD or reposition, or just obey my own troops. I find Zoraida works almost like suppressing fire :)

Though I like your thinking it is a case of shadow games, and because of the difference in allocated resources, one that Hamelin's crew is more likely to win.

I don't think I follow you here, can you elaborate?

Though they may be able to position themselves to prevent direct assualts, they can also probably be ignored once there because of LOS and Range issues (caused by Intervening Terrain and models).

Really? I usually find that perching Z on top of a wall or building solves her LOS issues rather nicely :)

Rats can sacrifice scrap and corpse counters within 6" of them by using 0 actions. This would only be needed for stuff killed outside the Aura of Voracious Rats, since anything killed within it wont leave one anyway. These two things can dramatically reduce your ability to replace losses.

Granted. In the case of losing a marionette if the rats destroy the scrap counter you'd want to jump back to the widow weaver. Mostly thought I think we have a very different perception of how the fight is likely to go. I see it like this:

a ratcatcher and group of three rats get pounced on by collodi, 4 marionettes, and 1 wicked doll as a single activation. The catcher and one rat are killed by the dolls attacks. Remaining rats maybe pull down a wicked doll, most likely not. Next turn the remaining rats are turned into two new wicked dolls and collodi jumps away. I know you're probably rolling your eyes right now but based on my experience with collodi that's how I'd expect the attack to go with any average luck. My experience with hamelin is minimal so I may be completely wrong, but I just don't see how that kind of force manages to do anything but get slaughtered by 13+ attacks with some poison 2 thrown in.

Consequently unless Hamelin manages to catch Collodi I really don't expect there to be many tokens to worry about.

Also keep in mind that you will only be able to cast Obey on the selected Key Model once per activation unless using the Voodoo Doll's as well (and then they will need LOS, Range, to suceed at the Wp duel from Ruffian and a 10 or higher to cast it since Conduit doesn't benefit them).

Against a force like Hamelin, where there are certain key abilities that make the whole thing work, I'd probably be more interested in hex than obey.

I apologize for insinutating you are close minded (I do try to limit that when posting) I definately respect your opinion and have appreciated your contributions to the thread (they are emphasizing something I have been saying for awhile now).

Thank you. Please know that when I'm disagreeing with you there's animosity in it. I enjoy a good argument (as in the intellectual exercise, not an emotional fight).

Keep in mind though that several times you have said you haven't played much against Hamelin or his crew. I have played with and against Hamelin for a very long time (longer than most people in the community) and of course MagicPockets has played with him a bunch as well; drawing on only my experiences I am confident in saying I am not overselling his abilities (Judging by his post I tend to think that MagicPockets agrees with me).

I do respect that.

Though max Buffed Marionettes are certainly dangerous (I'll agree with that), there is a very easy way to deal with them...just kill Collodi. His Df and Wd's aren't great and he can only shunt Strikes via Marionettes if there is a Marionette with in 6" of him. Attached Strings means that when he dies they go with him.

Trying to protect him will limit your offensive capability, while ignoring it may very well cost you the game (especially if your opponent can weather the storm, something that Hamelin excels at).

I agree with this, but the issue as always is how do you bring him to a fight? Against a ranged foe it's absolutely the danger. Ortegas or gremlins or freikorps can whittle him down to nothing if he's not very careful when and where he springs his ambush. But Hamelin has very little ranged ability in his crew. It's basically just the pipes so far as I can see. That makes it much harder to get at collodi because you actually have to get close enough for melee which almost always means weaving around a bunch of dolls who can all try disengaging strikes (unlike the rats who can be moved through and can't try to do a disengagement strike).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

fair enough. I still don't see how this is a huge threat though. If he can get within 15" of Collodi then he's got a reasonable chance to lure in the wicked dolls to base to base. He has to get within 13" for the marionettes (a walk followed by 2 lures). There's no guarantee of the lure working on all the dolls unless he;s willing to burn a soulstone for the casts. And if the dolls do get pulled in they survive on a flip of light damage (dolls with filled with stones aren't killed by any flip). I can see how the lure could be very effective against some forces but it just doesn't seem to be here unless collodi does something stupid like stand next to hamelin on his turn.

If Hamelin cheats a 13 then only the Red Joker will save a Doll from Irrestible Lure's movement toward Hamelin, the SS prety much guarantees that they wont avoid the move even with the Red Joker (since ties in Wp duels are losses for the defender).

Though having them end in B2B is nice because of the free damage potential, just pulling them out 6" from Collodi is a win (so they cant all activate immediately after him unless he moves).

In such a case all you have to do is activate collodi, use his (0) action to activate whatever marionette is still near him, then move so the lured marionettes are within 6" once his activation ends.

Doll Friends has a range of 6" of Collodi, if the Marionettes are pullled more than this from him (by 2 successful castings of Irrestible Lure) then he has to move forward.

This is exactly what I am trying to accomplish with Irresitible Lure, making you use at least 1 general AP to move so you can no longer buff the Marionettes with Puppet Show, Mend Puppets,or Puppet Tools (because you wont have the 2 general AP needed), leaving you only 2 spells to use, Breathe Life and Filled with Stones (since Long Strings actually hurts the doll train shenanigans and no Collodi's Dolls means Irresitible Lure works even better now).

The threat Range and bite of the Marionettes decreases dramatically without Fast in the mix

I disagree with much of this. I gave an example 25ss list (reprinted here):

at 25ss

Collodi (-7ss)

4 marionettes (8ss)

2 wicked dolls (6ss)

Arcane Effigy (4ss)

Widow Weaver (9ss)

5ss pool

this list comfortably fits in the Widow Weaver. While she requires scrap counters her ability to manufacture them actually prevents Hamelin's usual ability to deny them. She can in a single activation create a scrap counter and manufacture a WD with it. It costs 2 cards but there's nothing Hamelin;s crew can do to prevent it other than killing her. She is slower than Collodi but since the dolls teleport to him if she plans to stay back and manufacture them this is no problem.

Once again this is exactly what I want you to do with her. The Widow Weaver is contributing nothing to completing your Strategies and Schemes (because she cant move when she does this) and is costing you 2 Control Cards to boot (negating Arcane Reservoir from the effigy and forcing you to play with 5 control cards).

While each easily killed Wicked Doll nets Hamelin yet another Rat near the front to activate. It is a war of attrition that strongly favors Hamelin.

You do have to choose between repositioning and summoning a doll, that's true. But whereas you present it as a dilemma I think of it as tactical flexibility. If Hamelin sets up in the open then I pick and choose who to Voodoo. If he doesn't then he's already playing the way I want him to (pinned down and not moving) while I use my actions instead to summon a WD or reposition, or just obey my own troops. I find Zoraida works almost like suppressing fire :)

His crew has surprising mobility as well (maybe not as good as Collodi and the Dolls) but he will hardly be pinned down and not moving (especially if there is lots of LOS blocking terrain to move from and too).

Zoraida staying in the back field pumping out a Wicked Doll a turn then using Obey on your own crew (if any are within Range for it) limits her mobility and removes her from the fight (allowing the Hamelin player to focus on killing Collodi, then the Wicked Dolls).

I don't think I follow you here, can you elaborate?

Basically everything that is taking Collodi's crew several AP and additional resources to do (Control Cards or Scrap/corpse counters) to either sustain the Doll swarm or buff the Marionettes Hamelin's crew does better and cheaper.

Really? I usually find that perching Z on top of a wall or building solves her LOS issues rather nicely :)

Increased Ht doesn't always equal increased LOS and then she still has to have range to the target. The only way she can ignore these two things is if benefitting from Conduit (and then the important LOS needs to be established from the Ht1 Voodoo Doll. If it cant see the intended target then he cant Conduit)

Granted. In the case of losing a marionette if the rats destroy the scrap counter you'd want to jump back to the widow weaver.
The only way a scrap or corpse counter even gets created is if the model is killed outside the 6" range of Voracious Rats not very likely to happen since Nix is the only priority target that wont have it.

Mostly thought I think we have a very different perception of how the fight is likely to go. I see it like this:

a ratcatcher and group of three rats get pounced on by collodi, 4 marionettes, and 1 wicked doll as a single activation. The catcher and one rat are killed by the dolls attacks. Remaining rats maybe pull down a wicked doll, most likely not. Next turn the remaining rats are turned into two new wicked dolls and collodi jumps away. I know you're probably rolling your eyes right now but based on my experience with collodi that's how I'd expect the attack to go with any average luck. My experience with hamelin is minimal so I may be completely wrong, but I just don't see how that kind of force manages to do anything but get slaughtered by 13+ attacks with some poison 2 thrown in.

Yes we definately are seeing this differently,

You are ignoring the realities of Base Blocking, you will not be able to get all your potential attackers around the Rat Catcher (even with only three Rats protecting him that will only leave you an opening for 2-3 of your models). Realistically you are getting at most 6 attacks against him with the Marionettes (3 from Charges, and 3 from Melee Experts) even with the Paired Wooden Claws giving you a :+fate flip on the strike you are flipping even with the Rat Catcher who only needs to stop a few to weather the storm (because you wont be able to get rid of the Rats while he is alive he will have Armor 2 reducing the damage from each attack). On his activation the Rats simultaneously activate and start chewing on Collodi or the Marionettes, the Rat Catcher then goes and Slaughters them all (completely healing himself in the process) and creating an entirely new Rat Swarm to continue chewing on Collodi or the Marionettes. Even with shunting the strikes to the Marionettes you wont weather this storm as well as the Rat Catcher did (since you probably wont have any counters to build new Marionettes with).

Lets assume however your example succeeds, Collodi is again fixed in that position for an entire turn, allowing the Hamelin player to get at and kill him (taking the Marionettets with him) via several devious tricks he has of his own.

Consequently unless Hamelin manages to catch Collodi I really don't expect there to be many tokens to worry about.
Pretty much everything in Hamelin's crew will give a Blight token on a successful strike.

Against a force like Hamelin, where there are certain key abilities that make the whole thing work, I'd probably be more interested in hex than obey.

Hex would be the better option but has a resist (high as it may be), requires LOS and range if not benefitting from Conduit and requires not just a 9 or higher but also a :masks to be successful (or 11% success before Soul Stones are considered). Additionally, this can be fairly easily countered by killing/sacing the hexed model and bringing back a new one (which virtually the entire crew can do, even the Rat Catcher).

I agree with this, but the issue as always is how do you bring him to a fight? Against a ranged foe it's absolutely the danger. Ortegas or gremlins or freikorps can whittle him down to nothing if he's not very careful when and where he springs his ambush. But Hamelin has very little ranged ability in his crew. It's basically just the pipes so far as I can see. That makes it much harder to get at collodi because you actually have to get close enough for melee which almost always means weaving around a bunch of dolls who can all try disengaging strikes

Hamelin has :melee 2 so can actually perform strikes over the Ht 1 Dolls, as you point out he also has Pipes which can cause your Marionettes to strike at Collodi by proxy on Severe Dg flips (which are pretty easily cheated in), and then of course there is his Obedience Spell which can do the same thing (though requires the Sacing of a friendly model, the Stolen are perfect for this since they will also reduce the Wp of the Dolls and give him yet another Rat to activate).

(unlike the rats who can be moved through and can't try to do a disengagement strike).
Though they can be moved over, wont generate disengaging strikes and dont block LOS, they cant be stopped on so can still effectively base block which is probably one of there best uses against the supped up marionettes.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I disagree with much of this. I gave an example 25ss list (reprinted here):

at 25ss

Collodi (-7ss)

4 marionettes (8ss)

2 wicked dolls (6ss)

Arcane Effigy (4ss)

Widow Weaver (9ss)

5ss pool

(re Rat Catcher) I just don't see how that kind of force manages to do anything but get slaughtered by 13+ attacks with some poison 2 thrown in.

You seem to be basing this on your 25ss list vs a rat catcher and a couple of rats. Don't forget Hamelin will have 25ss too, and at 25ss I wouldn't even take a rat catcher.

That makes it much harder to get at collodi because you actually have to get close enough for melee which almost always means weaving around a bunch of dolls who can all try disengaging strikes (unlike the rats who can be moved through and can't try to do a disengagement strike).

Don't forget ht1 dolls can't make disengaging strikes against Hamelin

My experience with hamelin is minimal so I may be completely wrong

This may be part of the problem. Hamelin is very very difficult to theory-faux because his crew and tactics are so different than what the book would lead you to expect. For example, at risk of revealing too much, my main 35ss Hamelin list for masters only has two rats in it.

Re the overall conversation, sorry I can't be more helpful. But this close to masters, especially talking about my main opponent, I can't a contribute too much. However the thread is helping me thinks things so thank you for that! :D

Edited by magicpockets
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Doll Friends has a range of 6" of Collodi, if the Marionettes are pullled more than this from him (by 2 successful castings of Irrestible Lure) then he has to move forward.

What I was specifically addressing was the case you mentioned where some marionettes get lured outside of the 6" area of effect but others don't, thus forcing collodi to pick which group to activate. I was pointing out that if we assume 2-3 dolls get lured away and 1-2 don't (making the assumption that Hamelin wins more of the lure duels than he loses) then Collodi can use his (0) action to activate 1 of the dolls that didn't get lured and move then to get the other 2-3 within the 6" effect so you are activating at least 3 out of 4 marionettes right after collodi.

This is exactly what I am trying to accomplish with Irresitible Lure, making you use at least 1 general AP to move [snipped]

The threat Range and bite of the Marionettes decreases dramatically without Fast in the mix

absolutely. What it does is force Collodi to bounce away for a turn to reform and prepare for a following turn ambush.

Once again this is exactly what I want you to do with her. The Widow Weaver is contributing nothing to completing your Strategies and Schemes (because she cant move when she does this) and is costing you 2 Control Cards to boot (negating Arcane Reservoir from the effigy and forcing you to play with 5 control cards).

If she's creating extra dolls, picking off enemies that get close with ranged attacks, tempting you to divert forces to put her down, and helping buff dolls when collodi comes back to prep another strike I'm pretty okay with that.

While each easily killed Wicked Doll nets Hamelin yet another Rat near the front to activate. It is a war of attrition that strongly favors Hamelin.

I don't see it. You only get a rat if you have a ratcatcher or hamelin in 6", the rats have no inherent ability to summon more rats but the rats are realistically the only forces that can catch collodi. The only time a ratcatcher is going to be in 6" is when he's the target of the pounce. Wicked dolls have a def of 6 which is pretty good compared to the rats Cb of 4. That plus wicked intentions when there's 2 of them plus the rats ability to only attack 1 each I think makes them harder to take down than you;re giving them credit for.

His crew has surprising mobility as well (maybe not as good as Collodi and the Dolls) but he will hardly be pinned down and not moving (especially if there is lots of LOS blocking terrain to move from and too).

The rats have good mobility. Nix seems okay with spirit. The rest of the crew doesn't strike me as particularly fast. Hamelin himself can run a good 15" which certainly is nothing to sneeze at but even doing nothing but running he just can't catch Collodi. This is the thing- the minions that catch collodi just aren't a threat (rats without a ratcatcher are just meat for the dolls to rip apart).

Zoraida staying in the back field pumping out a Wicked Doll a turn then using Obey on your own crew (if any are within Range for it) limits her mobility and removes her from the fight (allowing the Hamelin player to focus on killing Collodi, then the Wicked Dolls).

I really wouldn't say that. Given how critically dependent the Haemlin crew is on a few key abilities on key models Zoraida sitting back and summoning dolls thus poisoning those models and striping abilities with hex is a huge threat. Especially with Collodi waiting to drop the hammer.

Increased Ht doesn't always equal increased LOS and then she still has to have range to the target. The only way she can ignore these two things is if benefitting from Conduit (and then the important LOS needs to be established from the Ht1 Voodoo Doll. If it cant see the intended target then he cant Conduit)

Granted it doesn't always solve the issue, but I certainly find it solves more problems than it raises :)

The only way a scrap or corpse counter even gets created is if the model is killed outside the 6" range of Voracious Rats not very likely to happen since Nix is the only priority target that wont have it.

Nix is the only target I think has a chance of surviving long enough for a doll to be killed.

Yes we definately are seeing this differently,

You are ignoring the realities of Base Blocking, you will not be able to get all your potential attackers around the Rat Catcher (even with only three Rats protecting him that will only leave you an opening for 2-3 of your models).

2-3 models is like 9-14 attacks.

Realistically you are getting at most 6 attacks against him with the Marionettes (3 from Charges, and 3 from Melee Experts)

Okay let's say I take two dolls to move up to position. I place collodi so that I can place a doll in base to base and next to the RC. That doll, assuming fast and Melee expert gets 5 attacks (flurry 3 + ME 1 + fast 1) by itself. Any marionettes I have to bring in that have to walk once to get close enough to attack will get 4 (using the fast to move). The wicked dolls are unlikely to need to move as they can be placed within 2" of collodi with their (0) rather than in B2B (like the marionettes). If they don't move they get 3 attacks (with fast), 2 if they do move. This is assuming they haven't gotten melee expert, if I managed to get really good draws on the spell or had a doppelganger, WW or zoraida helping out (with an obeyed cast of breathe life) they might get an additional 1.

You're way underestimating the number of attacks involved.

Lets assume however your example succeeds, Collodi is again fixed in that position for an entire turn, allowing the Hamelin player to get at and kill him (taking the Marionettets with him) via several devious tricks he has of his own.

Yes but the whole point has been if the RC moves away from Hamelin (to go after z or WW or to accomplish strategies) then he's a target. If he stays close to hamelin he's safe, but he's also pinned (in the chess parlance). He's basically relegated to following his master around which makes him fairly useless as his master already does what he does. The goal for the hamelin player will be to push the RC just far out enough to tempt an attack when he's still close enough to bring in hamelin in for an attempt to kill enough marionettes to strand collodi (at which point hamelin absolutely will kill him, no question).

Hex would be the better option but has a resist (high as it may be), requires LOS and range if not benefitting from Conduit and requires not just a 9 or higher but also a :masks to be successful (or 11% success before Soul Stones are considered). Additionally, this can be fairly easily countered by killing/sacing the hexed model and bringing back a new one (which virtually the entire crew can do, even the Rat Catcher).

But if Hanmelin isn't producing many rats due to the lack of targets he can catch and kill, thus limiting him to the one he can get by summoning and sacrificing a stolen each turn losing three to get a RC has to hurt.

Though they can be moved over, wont generate disengaging strikes and dont block LOS, they cant be stopped on so can still effectively base block which is probably one of there best uses against the supped up marionettes.

I need to see this in action because I can't see how you could get it to work well. With 4 rats evenly spaced around the RC you could limit the number of attacking 30 mm models to 4, but that's easily enough. With 6 I agree you could completely surround the RC but it's a big investment of rats (magicpockets says the most he's ever had in play was 12 and you'd be using half of them to protect 1 RC?). And then you still have the issue of the rats and RC not activating together so someone moves out of phase with the other leaving gaps in the protection. Against bigger based models I could see it working well. I wonder if we could use the vassal module to set up some diagrams? Edited by 011121
Link to comment
Share on other sites

You seem to be basing this on your 25ss list vs a rat catcher and a couple of rats. Don't forget Hamelin will have 25ss too, and at 25ss I wouldn't even take a rat catcher.

That's because I'm analyzing the collodi force versus what he's pouncing on. I can't say this enough- if the Hamelin player stays all grouped up then you don't pounce on him, you'll just die. In that case you use collodi to accomplish schemes and strategies.

I would be curious to hear what you would take in a 25ss list.

Don't forget ht1 dolls can't make disengaging strikes against Hamelin

Good point but I was thinking more of the rats themselves, RCs and Nix (can you make disengaging strikes on spirits? I can't remember). You never want to land close enough to Hamelin that the question of him running around your dolls even comes up (if you can read this you're too close) :)

This may be part of the problem. Hamelin is very very difficult to theory-faux because his crew and tactics are so different than what the book would lead you to expect. For example, at risk of revealing too much, my main 35ss Hamelin list for masters only has two rats in it.

It's possible, and I would really like to hear how it works or try it out. Maybe after masters you can go into some depth.

Re the overall conversation, sorry I can't be more helpful. But this close to masters, especially talking about my main opponent, I can't a contribute too much. However the thread is helping me thinks things so thank you for that! :D

I'm glad if it ends up being helpful!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What I was specifically addressing was the case you mentioned where some marionettes get lured outside of the 6" area of effect but others don't, thus forcing collodi to pick which group to activate. I was pointing out that if we assume 2-3 dolls get lured away and 1-2 don't (making the assumption that Hamelin wins more of the lure duels than he loses) then Collodi can use his (0) action to activate 1 of the dolls that didn't get lured and move then to get the other 2-3 within the 6" effect so you are activating at least 3 out of 4 marionettes right after collodi.

That Doll that got left behind would then more than likely have to use his 0 action Retract to rejoin Collodi (since Collodi's Dolls only moves him toward Collodi the shortest distance and would have him out of Cg range of the target) which takes out Tell No Lies preserving the targets ability to cheat Df. And unless Collodi just happens to be within approximately 2" of the target, the Doll is now going to have to move to get at the target to make a strike (costing an Ap or 2 and reducing the attacks that Doll can make).

If she's creating extra dolls, picking off enemies that get close with ranged attacks, tempting you to divert forces to put her down, and helping buff dolls when collodi comes back to prep another strike I'm pretty okay with that.

As I said this will allow Hamelin's crew to focus on killing the models that are upfield (more than likely the Collodi Strike Force) then deal with her later.

If she is creating dolls then she cant do anything else (it will take both of her AP to do) so she can be completely ignored. Her 1 ranged threat (Exhale Terror), requires a target (LOS), is a :ranged strike (so being in melee offers a lot of protection against it) and has a fairly short range (well within retaliation range or easily ignored completely). In order for her to buff a doll(s) via Breathe Life she isn't creating one that turn and she still requires LOS and range to the targets (pretty much meaning it will only be the one that she created last turn).

Gruesome Stuffing has some potential use (since it will bypass Armor) but is successfully cast less than 40% odf the time, only lasts the turn, and only effects a Doll that was within 2" of her when cast (also it actually goes off less than 25% of the time and only on Damage to that model).

I don't see it. You only get a rat if you have a ratcatcher or hamelin in 6", the rats have no inherent ability to summon more rats but the rats are realistically the only forces that can catch collodi. The only time a ratcatcher is going to be in 6" is when he's the target of the pounce.

Hamelin's crew will hardly ever need to get at Collodi to achieve victory (in truth he can be ignored a lot of the time). Because of this the rats are almost always going to be well within range of Voracious Rats (unless the payoff is worth the risk of losing them). I play Hamelin very defensively and always with an eye toward preserving at least a Draw.

Looking at the Strategies and Schemes using them Defensively like this greatly favors me in 7 of 13 Strategies:

Claim Jump, Destroy the Evidence, Plant Evidence, Reconnoiter, Supply Wagon, Treasure Hunt, and Turf War

I would also say it provides a lesser advantage in 3 of the remaining 6:

A Line in the Sand, Deliver a Message and Distract

Against Collodi (acting as the Master and leading the crew) I will always be selecting and announcing the following 2 Schemes that you wont have an answer for: Body Guard and Stake a Claim. These virtually guaranty the Hamelin player 4 VP since the vast majority of models (in your crew) will be unable to even target Hamelin, and the ones that can will strugle to actually drop him at all.

Wicked dolls have a def of 6 which is pretty good compared to the rats Cb of 4. That plus wicked intentions when there's 2 of them plus the rats ability to only attack 1 each I think makes them harder to take down than you;re giving them credit for.

Wicked Intentions is a good start, however can be gotten around easily enough by thoughtful activation order of either the Rat swarm (working from the outside in) or having Nix or the Ratcatcher clear out a few first. The 0 action Impetuous from the Rats goes a long way toward overcoming the 2 point difference in combat totals (and of course if Nix is there to provide his debuff aura you wont be able to cheat due to the :-fate flip). Any damage they flip kills the Wicked Dolls in one go thanks to the Blight Token (so all they need to do is tie the Wicked Dolls combat total).

Though they only get 1 Ap per activation, each time one is killed they will be replaced by a completely new (unactivated) rat that will get an activation. Even if you dont kill them for me, the Rat Catcher can always use the Slaughter Rats 0 Action (unless paralyzed) to kill them all and bring them back ready to simultaneously activate again.

The rats have good mobility. Nix seems okay with spirit. The rest of the crew doesn't strike me as particularly fast. Hamelin himself can run a good 15" which certainly is nothing to sneeze at but even doing nothing but running he just can't catch Collodi. This is the thing- the minions that catch collodi just aren't a threat (rats without a ratcatcher are just meat for the dolls to rip apart).

When used defensively like I showed above, most of the strategies and all the Schemes that I will be selecting against you, I can pretty much ignore Collodi (and the strike force) completely and just focus on accruing my VP's (usually forcing you to come to me).

Think of it this way, with just Hamelin running 15" a turn toward a selected piece of terrain on your side of the table I will accrue 4 VP's (from Announced Body Guard and Stake a Claim). This allows the rest of the crew to achieve the other 4 VP's from the random Strategy (and in the majority of these I will have a distinct advantage unless you choose to come to me).

I really wouldn't say that. Given how critically dependent the Haemlin crew is on a few key abilities on key models Zoraida sitting back and summoning dolls thus poisoning those models and striping abilities with hex is a huge threat. Especially with Collodi waiting to drop the hammer.

Having played Zoraida for the last 2 years has taught me that actually establishing the conduit on a model is often more difficult than it appears. Even once established the only models that really have to worry about it are the Ratcatcher and Nix (both of whom can easily heal the damage from poison each turn).

Hex though a great spell still suffers from the issues I explained earlier.

  1. It takes 2 Ap to use (and though she can use the specific AP from Casting Expert, she wont be able to use Create Voodoo Doll that turn).
  2. Unless benefitting from Conduit she has to have both LOS and Range to the target (and though she can use Raven to position she wont be able to cast spells that turn).
  3. If Conduit from the Voodoo Doll is achieved, still provides potentially 1-2 activations of the targetted model.
  4. There are only 6 cards in the deck that will cause it to succeed when flipped or cheated (unless she also uses a Soulstone and this is still not guaranteed).
  5. Nix is really the only model that needs to worry about it since everything else can just be killed and brought back forcing Zoraida to re-Hex the ability.

Nix is the only target I think has a chance of surviving long enough for a doll to be killed.

Without a way to overcome the Armor or get at the Rat Catcher (because of Base Blocking) you more than likely will not be able to kill them in one simulataneous activation (and as long as at least 3 Rats die within 3" of him before the next wave he will be back to full health).

2-3 models is like 9-14 attacks.

This assumes they have both Fast and Melee Expert in effect and choose to Flurry. Doing this means that they have to start within 1" of the targetted model and will cost you a control card per Doll using Flurry. You wont be able to perform a charge action since it cost 2 general AP to Flurry leaving you with only 1 General and 1 Specific AP from Melee Expert (which cant be used to perform a Charge action).

5 attacks per Doll, all of which can be completely prevented with 6 Rats surrounding the Rat Catcher.

I didn't have to either move or Charge to get at the targeted model.
There is no way to avoid moving or charging to get at the targetted model unless it comes to you or you started next to it.

Though Collodi and the Dolls have plenty of positioning shenanigans to get at the targetted model, Collodi's Dolls still limits them to a maximum of 8" away from him, so each will have to use Retract to get to B2B with him, then a Wk action and then Pull Strings to move him 8" closer toward the target (this will cost them 2 General AP and a 0 action). Unless that model is now within melee range of the target it wont be able to do anything else because Pull Strings is now once per turn. The next Doll can do the same thing but once again unless the target is within melee range it is now done.

2 complete Marionette and Collodi's activation done and he is now approximately 16" closer to the target (assuming of course that there wasn't any interveening or severe terrain in the way). Now if Collodi is within melee range of the target you may be able to get a Marionete to perform its strikes at the target, however unless you can get that one out of the way the next Marionette is going to be base blocked by it and have to move around him to make it's strikes (because they wont be able to retract to the same spot and there :melee 1 will not put them wihtin range of the target).

Wicked Dolls are at an advantage here because they can be placed within 2" of Collodi via Hag's Toy vice B2B via the Marionettes Retract, however they will lose access to Murderous doing it and wont have access to Fast from Collodi's Puppet Show :pulse. And also only 1 will be able to benefit from Collodi's Doll Friends if he was within range during Collodi's activation and participate in the simultaneous activation.

Additionally, if they are targetting a Rat Catcher then all of these models will still have to pass a WP 13 duel prior to every single action thanks to Ruffian. (even if benefitting from Collodi's Puppet Master :aura 6, they will need 7's or higher because ties fail).

It is great in theory but in practice will not be as effective (still surprising and plenty destructive).

Yes but the whole point has been if the RC moves away from Hamelin (to go after z or WW or to accomplish strategies) then he's a target. If he stays close to hamelin he's safe, but he's also pinned (in the chess parlance). He's basically relegated to following his master around which makes him fairly useless as his master already does what he does. The goal for the hamelin player will be to push the RC just far out enough to tempt an attack when he's still close enough to bring in hamelin in for an attempt to kill enough marionettes to strand collodi (at which point hamelin absolutely will kill him, no question).

Let me say this again against the crews you have listed, the Rat Catchers and Nix do not really need to stay near Hamelin at all. The Rats provide all the protection the Rat Catchers need against your Dolls while Nix is pretty durable on his own.

Each group (Ratcatcher and Rats, Nix and Hamelin) can accomplish objectives independantly.

As I should above Hamelin can casually stroll to a piece of terrain on your side of the table and almost guaranty 4 VP's.

But if Hanmelin isn't producing many rats due to the lack of targets he can catch and kill, thus limiting him to the one he can get by summoning and sacrificing a stolen each turn losing three to get a RC has to hurt.

Think of it this way, every three turns he can produce a completely free Rat Catcher (3 The Stolen, which will become 3 Malifaux Rats, which becomes 1 Rat Catcher) and only lose 1 AP per turn doing it.

Lest you think all this would be wasted effort, for 1 more AP per turn by sacing the Stolen he can produce a Wp debuffing :pulse 6 (the Stolen No Humanity), summon a Rat (the Stolen Inevitable Fate), and also recieve 2 Control Cards and heal 2 Wd's (Hamelin's Abandoned Soul). That is alot of benefit for only 2 AP.

I need to see this in action because I can't see how you could get it to work well. With 4 rats evenly spaced around the RC you could limit the number of attacking 30 mm models to 4, but that's easily enough. With 6 I agree you could completely surround the RC but it's a big investment of rats (magicpockets says the most he's ever had in play was 12 and you'd be using half of them to protect 1 RC?). And then you still have the issue of the rats and RC not activating together so someone moves out of phase with the other leaving gaps in the protection. Against bigger based models I could see it working well. I wonder if we could use the vassal module to set up some diagrams?

Though it may be difficult to visualize (agree Vassal could probably show this fairly well) base blocking with 4 Rats (they wont be positioned evenly around the Rat Catcher but favoring one particular side) will prevent attacks from more than 2 of your models (assuming 30mm bases).

To set this up the Rats that are positioned a quarter inch (1/4") away from the Rat Catcher and each other. This will prevent all attacks on the Rat Catcher from 3 sides (front, left and right) and allow only 2 other 30mm bases to occupy the remaining space (even if placed in B2B with the Rat Catcher).

These 2 additional 30mm bases will prevent any remaining attacks on the Rat Catcher from other models behind them (Keep in mind all this assumes strikes from models that only have :melee 1 strikes, :melee 2 strikes can still get at the Rat Catcher unless you add more Rats to the Mix).

Magic Pockets uses his Rats alot differently than I do and would probably have a completely different list than I would take at 25 SS.

At 25 Soulstones this is what my crew would look like:

Outcasts Crew - 25 - Scrap

Hamelin the Plagued
--
3 Pool

  • Nix, the Bull Terrier
    [7ss]

  • Rat Catcher
    [5ss]

  • Malifaux Rat
    [2ss]

  • Malifaux Rat
    [2ss]

  • Malifaux Rat
    [2ss]

  • Malifaux Rat
    [2ss]

  • Malifaux Rat
    [2ss]

This allows Hamelin 6 turns to stroll across the field and accomplish 4 Vp's from announced Schemes (Body Guard and Stake a Claim), and leaves me with Nix and the Rat Catcher Swarm to acheive other objectives.

Since Hamelin will only have to worry about strikes from Collodi and the Weaver Widow (at least until he makes her Insignifcant via Understand the Soulless) he can take his time and pump out plenty of free models then sacrifice them to provide Rats, control cards, healing and possibly debuffs. 6 Turns of this (minimum length of a game) equals 30" of movement for Hamelin, either 6 The Stolen or 6 Rats or 2 Rat Catchers, 12 Control Cards and 12 healed Wds.

I do agree that the Rats and Rat Catchers moving at different times can produce a gap in the protection and is a significant problem, however it can be managed somewhat by thoughtful activation order and positioning.

PS. I wonder what the maximum amount of text you can have in one post is? I imagine we are getting close to it by now.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That Doll that got left behind would then more than likely have to use his 0 action Retract to rejoin Collodi (since Collodi's Dolls only moves him toward Collodi the shortest distance and would have him out of Cg range of the target) which takes out Tell No Lies preserving the targets ability to cheat Df. And unless Collodi just happens to be within approximately 2" of the target, the Doll is now going to have to move to get at the target to make a strike (costing an Ap or 2 and reducing the attacks that Doll can make).

I think we're talking past each other here. I was assuming you were talking about after Collodi pounces Hamelin pulling some of the dolls out of position. I'm saying it wouldn;t be that hard for collodi to pull enough dolls together to effect an escape, not to press on to another turn of combat. If Hamelin's close enough to pull that off I;d want to get the hell out of dodge.

As I said this will allow Hamelin's crew to focus on killing the models that are upfield (more than likely the Collodi Strike Force) then deal with her later.

I sincerely want that to be Hamelin's focus. If he's leaving my manufacturing and long range attack ability (through conduit) alone I'm pretty confident the game's half won.

If she is creating dolls then she cant do anything else (it will take both of her AP to do) so she can be completely ignored. Her 1 ranged threat (Exhale Terror), requires a target (LOS), is a :ranged strike (so being in melee offers a lot of protection against it) and has a fairly short range (well within retaliation range or easily ignored completely). In order for her to buff a doll(s) via Breathe Life she isn't creating one that turn and she still requires LOS and range to the targets (pretty much meaning it will only be the one that she created last turn).

Correct. I wouldn't aim to make a doll every turn, you;d probably just end up with too many. I'd go for something like this:

turn 1 prep for attack, WW makes a doll

turn 2 WW buffs dolls with breathe life, collodi attacks

turn 3 return from attack, WW makes a doll

turn 4 WW buffs dolls with breathe life, collodi attacks

and so on...

That way you have your full hand on turns you attack. Of course this is the ideal, she may well not have the cards to do these things every turn. Such is life. No plan survives contact with the enemy and que sera sera :)

Gruesome Stuffing has some potential use (since it will bypass Armor) but is successfully cast less than 40% odf the time, only lasts the turn, and only effects a Doll that was within 2" of her when cast (also it actually goes off less than 25% of the time and only on Damage to that model).

It's only hurts living models so the soulless are safe from it unfortunately.

Looking at the Strategies and Schemes using them Defensively like this greatly favors me in 7 of 13 Strategies:

Claim Jump, Destroy the Evidence, Plant Evidence, Reconnoiter, Supply Wagon, Treasure Hunt, and Turf War

claim jump and treasure hunt I agree favor Hamelin. Destroy the evidence I think strongly favors collodi as he can easily destroy the neutral marker in the first turn. Hamelin's rats can't destroy anything due to slow so hamelin has to rely on his RCs and hamelin himself to slog up the field. Collodi should easily win that game. If Hamelin sits on one of my objectives he can;t project enough force to take his own. So long as I got the neutral I'll win on VP.

Hamelin will probably tie on plant evidence. Collodi's fast enough to get the max points easily but can't stop hamelin from doing the same.

Reconnoiter would be interesting. If hamelin stays clumped up until the very end he might do well, otherwise collodi can pick off the separated elements. Still the manufacturing of dolls and rats should be about even. Zoriada could make a huge difference here.

Treasure hunt is also interesting. Collodi can definitely grab the treasure first but then the question is if I could keep it away from a determined Hamelin. I'd try to hand the treasure to a wicked doll who'd walk it back to zoraida (assuming 35ss) or the widow weaver. Then they go up on impassible terrain to stay away from Hamelin. Not sure to work but has a decent chance.

Turf war I think favors Collodi. He can spend every turn but the last trying to pick off targets of opportunity and still reach any part of the enemy deployment zone on the last turn. Meanwhile Hamelin's forces have to approach Zoraida/WW area.

I would also say it provides a lesser advantage in 3 of the remaining 6:

A Line in the Sand, Deliver a Message and Distract

Deliver a message i think sucks for Hamelin since once again it requires a 2 action so his rats are incapable. Same thing with line in the sand if Hamelin is the defender. Distract is fairly even, since once again Collodi can easily reach the enemy deployment zone but I can't really stop Hamelin from getting to mine.

Against Collodi (acting as the Master and leading the crew) I will always be selecting and announcing the following 2 Schemes that you wont have an answer for: Body Guard and Stake a Claim. These virtually guaranty the Hamelin player 4 VP since the vast majority of models (in your crew) will be unable to even target Hamelin, and the ones that can will strugle to actually drop him at all.

Yeah but Collodi can just as easily do the same thing. Or I can take the ever popular kidnap targeting any stolen you start with or three random rats.

Wicked Intentions is a good start, however can be gotten around easily enough by thoughtful activation order of either the Rat swarm (working from the outside in) or having Nix or the Ratcatcher clear out a few first. The 0 action Impetuous from the Rats goes a long way toward overcoming the 2 point difference in combat totals (and of course if Nix is there to provide his debuff aura you wont be able to cheat due to the :-fate flip). Any damage they flip kills the Wicked Dolls in one go thanks to the Blight Token (so all they need to do is tie the Wicked Dolls combat total).

Don't they need to first give them a blight token before they get the effect of a blight token? I mean wouldn't the first attack just give the token rather than giving the token and also triggering the blight effect?

Though they only get 1 Ap per activation, each time one is killed they will be replaced by a completely new (unactivated) rat that will get an activation. Even if you dont kill them for me, the Rat Catcher can always use the Slaughter Rats 0 Action (unless paralyzed) to kill them all and bring them back ready to simultaneously activate again.

Right so a RC plus 4 rats is potentially 8 rat attacks spread across 3 actions (rats, RC, rats again). That's less than two buffed marionettes get in one activation. A single marionette if filled with stones requires at least 2 rats to kill it. Without stones a rat might get lucky and kill a marionette in one attack. Meanwhile each marionette can potentially kill 5 rats and is pretty likely to kill 2-3. Once again I think if the RC is taken out first the rats are just a matter of mop up.

Think of it this way, with just Hamelin running 15" a turn toward a selected piece of terrain on your side of the table I will accrue 4 VP's (from Announced Body Guard and Stake a Claim). This allows the rest of the crew to achieve the other 4 VP's from the random Strategy (and in the majority of these I will have a distinct advantage unless you choose to come to me).

Except I can easily take two safe schemes too. I disagree that Hamelin has an advantage in the majority. Actually I think he has 2 where he an advantage and another 2-3 where it's even and another 2-3 where I think collodi has a clear advantage.

Having played Zoraida for the last 2 years has taught me that actually establishing the conduit on a model is often more difficult than it appears. Even once established the only models that really have to worry about it are the Ratcatcher and Nix (both of whom can easily heal the damage from poison each turn).

I wouldn't try to use the poison offensively, except possibly to weaken a target for a pounce.

Hex though a great spell still suffers from the issues I explained earlier.

  1. It takes 2 Ap to use (and though she can use the specific AP from Casting Expert, she wont be able to use Create Voodoo Doll that turn).

With the arcane effigy you can summon a doll and hex in the same turn.

Without a way to overcome the Armor or get at the Rat Catcher (because of Base Blocking) you more than likely will not be able to kill them in one simulataneous activation (and as long as at least 3 Rats die within 3" of him before the next wave he will be back to full health).

I need to see how you do this base blocking. I really can;t imagine any way to do it with less than 5 rats that wouldn;t allow me to get at least 4 dolls in.

This assumes they have both Fast and Melee Expert in effect and choose to Flurry. Doing this means that they have to start within 1" of the targetted model and will cost you a control card per Doll using Flurry. You wont be able to perform a charge action since it cost 2 general AP to Flurry leaving you with only 1 General and 1 Specific AP from Melee Expert (which cant be used to perform a Charge action).

correct, but then this is what I always do when attacking with collodi. 5 attacks per marionette, 4 if they have to walk once. I never use charge with them. The extra attacks are just way more worthwhile. I simply don't care if I get light damage every time. 1 damage 10 times will kill almost anything. And if it doesn't well here comes marionette number 3 for the next 5 attacks. The only things that stand up to this kind of assault are things with a high enough Df or a Df trigger that lets them either prevent more attacks (moving away or killing the doll).

5 attacks per Doll, all of which can be completely prevented with 6 Rats surrounding the Rat Catcher.

But again I have to ask how often do you start with 6 rats per rat catcher? Remember you aren't going to be catching and killing any of my models by turn 2. So you'll have the rats you started with and maybe 1-2 more from summoning.

2 complete Marionette and Collodi's activation done and he is now approximately 16" closer to the target (assuming of course that there wasn't any interveening or severe terrain in the way). Now if Collodi is within melee range of the target you may be able to get a Marionete to perform its strikes at the target, however unless you can get that one out of the way the next Marionette is going to be base blocked by it and have to move around him to make it's strikes (because they wont be able to retract to the same spot and there :melee 1 will not put them wihtin range of the target).

I said the same thing. Assuming the next marionette needs to walk then it gets 4 attacks. If we took 2 to move then 5+4 9 attacks from the last two marionettes then 3 attacks from the last wicked doll (again assuming it didn't get melee expert 1 more if it did).

Wicked Dolls are at an advantage here because they can be placed within 2" of Collodi via Hag's Toy vice B2B via the Marionettes Retract, however they will lose access to Murderous doing it and wont have access to Fast from Collodi's Puppet Show :pulse. And also only 1 will be able to benefit from Collodi's Doll Friends if he was within range during Collodi's activation and participate in the simultaneous activation.

Why wouldn't the WD get fast? You start the turn with the dolls clustered around collodi. He does all his buffing and then activates the marionettes and one WD. As long as the WD was there for the buffing it gets fast too. You're right they won't have murderous on the turn they pounce that's why I was suggesting using it on the following turn clean up of the rats.

Additionally, if they are targetting a Rat Catcher then all of these models will still have to pass a WP 13 duel prior to every single action thanks to Ruffian. (even if benefitting from Collodi's Puppet Master :aura 6, they will need 7's or higher because ties fail).

No ties succeed. Rules manual pg 26. So they only need 6s. Granted they need a lot of them (one for each attack) but you can cheat some if necessary.

Think of it this way, every three turns he can produce a completely free Rat Catcher (3 The Stolen, which will become 3 Malifaux Rats, which becomes 1 Rat Catcher) and only lose 1 AP per turn doing it.

But collodi can kill one RC a turn, or at worst one every other turn. That math doesn't favor Hamelin.

Lest you think all this would be wasted effort, for 1 more AP per turn by sacing the Stolen he can produce a Wp debuffing :pulse 6 (the Stolen No Humanity), summon a Rat (the Stolen Inevitable Fate), and also recieve 2 Control Cards and heal 2 Wd's (Hamelin's Abandoned Soul). That is alot of benefit for only 2 AP.

it is except I don't plan to have models within 6" of him nor do I plan to try and kill him so the only real extra benefit is the card draws, which granted are important, especially for Hamelin who doesn't normally draw cards.

Though it may be difficult to visualize (agree Vassal could probably show this fairly well) base blocking with 4 Rats (they wont be positioned evenly around the Rat Catcher but favoring one particular side) will prevent attacks from more than 2 of your models (assuming 30mm bases).

To set this up the Rats that are positioned a quarter inch (1/4") away from the Rat Catcher and each other. This will prevent all attacks on the Rat Catcher from 3 sides (front, left and right) and allow only 2 other 30mm bases to occupy the remaining space (even if placed in B2B with the Rat Catcher).

I think I can sort of imagine what you are going for.

Magic Pockets uses his Rats alot differently than I do and would probably have a completely different list than I would take at 25 SS.

the more the merrier!

At 25 Soulstones this is what my crew would look like:

Outcasts Crew - 25 - Scrap

Hamelin the Plagued
--
3 Pool

  • Nix, the Bull Terrier
    [7ss]

  • Rat Catcher
    [5ss]

  • Malifaux Rat
    [2ss]

  • Malifaux Rat
    [2ss]

  • Malifaux Rat
    [2ss]

  • Malifaux Rat
    [2ss]

  • Malifaux Rat
    [2ss]

Thank you!

PS. I wonder what the maximum amount of text you can have in one post is? I imagine we are getting close to it by now.

Probably :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Only have a bit of time so I'll reply to the easy stuff.

It's only hurts living models so the soulless are safe from it unfortunately.

Vermin are living models (Rats and Rat Catchers).

Treasure hunt is also interesting. Collodi can definitely grab the treasure first but then the question is if I could keep it away from a determined Hamelin. I'd try to hand the treasure to a wicked doll who'd walk it back to zoraida (assuming 35ss) or the widow weaver. Then they go up on impassible terrain to stay away from Hamelin. Not sure to work but has a decent chance.
You drop the treasure counter if you are pushed or moved other than by a Wk Action and of couse cant pass it off to other models. This will limit your mobility a lot.

Don't they need to first give them a blight token before they get the effect of a blight token? I mean wouldn't the first attack just give the token rather than giving the token and also triggering the blight effect?
As soon as you are damaged you pick up the Blight Token which then either Adds or causes another Wd (this is a very important distinction). If you look at the Damage timing sequence posted in another thread by a Rules Marshal, you will see that you would pick up the Blight Counter before final total is applied.

Right so a RC plus 4 rats is potentially 8 rat attacks spread across 3 actions (rats, RC, rats again). That's less than two buffed marionettes get in one activation. A single marionette if filled with stones requires at least 2 rats to kill it. Without stones a rat might get lucky and kill a marionette in one attack. Meanwhile each marionette can potentially kill 5 rats and is pretty likely to kill 2-3. Once again I think if the RC is taken out first the rats are just a matter of mop up.

This right here is why the correct interpretation of how the Extra Wd from the Blight Token is applied. (if it is an additonal Damage source, after the initial resolution Rats kill Marionettes with one strike).

Dont consider the rats base damage range (the crew has to many ways to manipulate it which will usually result enough damage to kill a Marionette regardless of the damage flip).

I need to see how you do this base blocking. I really can;t imagine any way to do it with less than 5 rats that wouldn;t allow me to get at least 4 dolls in.

Set it up with a few spare 30mm bases exactly like I said, RC in the middle, 4 Rats spaced 1/4" from each other and the Rat Catcher.

But again I have to ask how often do you start with 6 rats per rat catcher? Remember you aren't going to be catching and killing any of my models by turn 2. So you'll have the rats you started with and maybe 1-2 more from summoning.

I usually start with 4-5 and that is plenty for Base Blocking Rat Catchers.

Why wouldn't the WD get fast? You start the turn with the dolls clustered around collodi. He does all his buffing and then activates the marionettes and one WD. As long as the WD was there for the buffing it gets fast too. You're right they won't have murderous on the turn they pounce that's why I was suggesting using it on the following turn clean up of the rats.
If the Wicked Doll didn't start within the :pulse, he wont benefit from Fast. Since you are depending on the Weaver Widow producing your Wicked Dolls for you then they will not always be within the :pulse (unless you are keeping Collodi very close to her, limiting his mobility).

No ties succeed. Rules manual pg 26. So they only need 6s. Granted they need a lot of them (one for each attack) but you can cheat some if necessary.
Was thinking about opposed Wp duels. Despite this you are still failing 40% of the time (includes ability to cheat) before even attempting each strike (2 Dolls = at most 10 strikes, of which on average 4 wont even get to the strike Duel, 6 strikes is a lot more manageable). Also every time you cheat a card you are giving the Hamelin player more cards to use (and he can always choose to draw from the top of his Discard pile instead of the fate deck). If you have to cheat first due to lower total then he can also cheat with the card you just provided him.

But collodi can kill one RC a turn, or at worst one every other turn. That math doesn't favor Hamelin.

Collodi can not realistically kill a Rat Catcher benefitting from Armor 2 in one activation. Additonally, he will have to start within melee range in order to have a chance (meaning the dolls will have to have delivered him the previous turn since he always has to activate prior to the Marionettes which move him, he provides the simultaneous activations after his activation)

it is except I don't plan to have models within 6" of him nor do I plan to try and kill him so the only real extra benefit is the card draws, which granted are important, especially for Hamelin who doesn't normally draw cards.

Dont forget about the Rats he gets by sacing them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Actually as puppet show is a :pulse not an :aura the wiked dolls would get fast.

This is incorrect Madhatter, from Page 20 of the rules manual

:pulse = the pulse represents the immediate circular area around a model, extending from the affected base edge out a number of inches equal to teh pulse's number. It simultaneously affects all models, excluding the pulse's originator...

:aura = the Aura area of effect represents an ongoing circular area around the target...Auras move with an affected model unless otherwise indicated in the description. When a model enters an aura's area or the area moves onto a model, that model immediately recieves its effects.

Since a teleporting Doll (or Marionette that is out of the AOE) will not be within the AOE when Collodi chooses to use it during his activation, those models will not benefit from Fast.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just to update this thread from the UK Masters (find us on Twitter with #mfauxm) re Hamelin vs Collodi.

So far I've only ended up playing Collodi once during practice so not as much to feedback on this as I'd hoped. However in that game Collodi went down like a proverbial sack of **** - and the Collodi player agrees he has no chance against Hamelin (move Hamelin in, irresistible lure and followed up with Nix - or could use Nix with multiple obediences from Hamelin for 5 attacks/charges etc)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just to update this thread from the UK Masters (find us on Twitter with #mfauxm) re Hamelin vs Collodi.

So far I've only ended up playing Collodi once during practice so not as much to feedback on this as I'd hoped. However in that game Collodi went down like a proverbial sack of **** - and the Collodi player agrees he has no chance against Hamelin (move Hamelin in, irresistible lure and followed up with Nix - or could use Nix with multiple obediences from Hamelin for 5 attacks/charges etc)

Oh.....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information