Is collodi the hamelin killer?

[magicpockets]

^^ So many things I disagree with and which are flat out wrong (i.e. you can't summon wicked dolls with a doppleganger) but I don't have the will to theory-faux through all of that.

One example -

It's 1-2 damage per attack but a hell of a lot of attacks. 2 marionettes can generate 10 attacks between them. 3 wicked dolls can generate 9 attacks between them. At 1-2 damage each that's over 2x what you need to kill a ratcatcher.

This is wrong, let's do the maths -

You have 10 attacks. You need to flip an 8+ per attack to make it against the Rat Catcher as you are ht1 (see Ruffian). So we'll say 5 get through. (Averages say 4 will get through, but we'll say 5)

You have an equal Cb->Df (with paired of course) so we'll presume a 75% success rate for you. So we'll say 4 make it through.

We'll assume the Rat Catcher has armour +2 so all of your attacks can only do 1 wound. Given how I play Hamelin and how I've seen him played I think this is a fair presumption.

So that's 4 wounds from 10 attacks.

---

Also, what's this "need to flip a 10 to act" in the post above? I can't work out where that's coming from??

Edited January 5, 2012 by magicpockets

[nachtnebel]

Also, what's this "need to flip a 10 to act" in the post above? I can't work out where that's coming from??

I think he's referring to the Wicked Doll's Wicked Intensions.

In the main, I wouldn't try to approach Hamelin with Collodi as a Master. Use Zorraida + Avatar and add Collodi as a Henchman, this way you can use Hex on one Rat Cather to remove Voracious Rats and take the other one down with the Voodoo Dolls poison and the Avatar's Pins and Needles. Although Collodi is nice, he and his strike force of dolls can't do much more against Hamelin than to go for the objectives and to take out some Rats or try to kill Nix.

Also nice, as soon as the Rat Catchers are out of the game (at least for a while), you don't need to Cheat Fate anymore, due to the increadible amount of attacks Collodi's Dolls can generate they should be capable of dealing with Rat's without that. So, with the help of aZoraida's (0) Tangled Threads and Bayou Two-Cards + Mark of Fate, you can try to run Hamelin's Control Hand dry.

[magicpockets]

I think he's referring to the Wicked Doll's Wicked Intensions.

Ah okay, I though it was something easy to get off. You need multiple activations to get the dolls in there so it's a bit hit and miss.

I'm not going to comment further yet though due to the impending tournament

[011121]

^^ So many things I disagree with and which are flat out wrong (i.e. you can't summon wicked dolls with a doppleganger) but I don't have the will to theory-faux through all of that.

I don't think I ever said you could summon a wicked doll with a doppelganger, bu if I did you're certainly right. I said the doppelganger could help with breathe life, obey, etc.

EDIT- I did say it one place, and as above that is wrong. I fixed the original post.

This is wrong, let's do the maths -

You have 10 attacks. You need to flip an 8+ per attack to make it against the Rat Catcher as you are ht1 (see Ruffian). So we'll say 5 get through. (Averages say 4 will get through, but we'll say 5)

You only need to flip a 6 when you take into account Collodi's Wp buff of dolls. That helps a fair amount. Edited January 5, 2012 by 011121

[011121]

In the main, I wouldn't try to approach Hamelin with Collodi as a Master. Use Zorraida + Avatar and add Collodi as a Henchman, this way you can use Hex on one Rat Cather to remove Voracious Rats and take the other one down with the Voodoo Dolls poison and the Avatar's Pins and Needles.

Which is what I suggested as my suggested 35ss force

Although Collodi is nice, he and his strike force of dolls can't do much more against Hamelin than to go for the objectives and to take out some Rats or try to kill Nix.

Also nice, as soon as the Rat Catchers are out of the game (at least for a while), you don't need to Cheat Fate anymore, due to the increadible amount of attacks Collodi's Dolls can generate they should be capable of dealing with Rat's without that. So, with the help of aZoraida's (0) Tangled Threads and Bayou Two-Cards + Mark of Fate, you can try to run Hamelin's Control Hand dry.

The main idea is that you neutralize his ability to make our models insignificant meaning he has to actually work at trying to outscore you, and because of your superior maneuverability he's unlikely to with many strategies and schemes. Taking Zoraida certainly helps though. I'd be the first to admit her usefulness.

[011121]

Ah okay, I though it was something easy to get off. You need multiple activations to get the dolls in there so it's a bit hit and miss.

It's pretty easy to get off in the sense that you just have to have two wicked dolls standing there. You activate 1 at the same time as Collodi and the marionettes, then bring in the second on the next activation.

[011121]

A couple different commenters have said that the rats can dish out serious damage. I can't see it looking at their stats. I certainly understand how lots of little attacks can add up but it looks like each rat gets at most 1 attack with a max damage of 2 (3 with the catcher buff) and a lowish Cb. So where is the damage potential coming from? I understand you could attack with all the rats and then slaughter them (if you have a catcher) and then attack with all the new rats, but that still seems like a small number of attacks.

What am I missing? How does a typical rat attack go?

[magicpockets]

How does a typical rat attack go?

Usually badly for the person on the other end

[magicpockets]

You only need to flip a 6 when you take into account Collodi's Wp buff of dolls. That helps a fair amount.

It tips the average the other way, but I gave you that in my maths anyways

Unfortunately I think the theory-faux has stopped as you've got an opinion you've decided on and it's clear that it's not going to be changed by anyone. In isolation you're probably right, 22ss worth of dolls will likely kill a 5ss rat catcher, but there'd be a serious problem if it didn't...

Bottom line is I'm a fairly good Hamelin player and I'll be playing against an inevitable conveyor belt of expertly played Collodi inclusive crews next weekend at the Masters tournament. Whether I win or get my ass handed to me I'll report back with some thoughts and encourage the other guys to do the same.

Then we can put the theory-faux to bed on this.

[JayBarlekamp]

A couple different commenters have said that the rats can dish out serious damage. I can't see it looking at their stats. I certainly understand how lots of little attacks can add up but it looks like each rat gets at most 1 attack with a max damage of 2 (3 with the catcher buff) and a lowish Cb. So where is the damage potential coming from? I understand you could attack with all the rats and then slaughter them (if you have a catcher) and then attack with all the new rats, but that still seems like a small number of attacks.

What am I missing? How does a typical rat attack go?

I think you're missing the blight tokens. so there is going to be extra dg from those

throw in the on attack and dg and you get a serious threat. Especially if you couple that with Nix. No cheat for defender, yes cheat for rat

Edited January 5, 2012 by JayBarlekamp

[micahwc]

Eagerly awaiting the batreps to see how this plays out in game.

[aka_hazard]

I've read this thread with interest and whilst having nothing to add to the topic I wanted to congratulate everyone for having such a long debate whilst maintaining a constructive and positive tone.

I frequent other forums where this would not be the case - makes me glad I play this game.

[011121]

Unfortunately I think the theory-faux has stopped as you've got an opinion you've decided on and it's clear that it's not going to be changed by anyone.

I don't think that's really fair, I think I've acknowledged good points such as Nix's spirit and I've repeatedly said both that I may be missing something and asked others to expand on what I might be missing

Bottom line is I'm a fairly good Hamelin player and I'll be playing against an inevitable conveyor belt of expertly played Collodi inclusive crews next weekend at the Masters tournament. Whether I win or get my ass handed to me I'll report back with some thoughts and encourage the other guys to do the same.

Then we can put the theory-faux to bed on this.

Please do report back your experience, but I have to say I really don't see theory as quite the pejorative you seem to.

Experience is good but experience is anecdotal, it isn't data unless on the large scale. In many ways small sets of experience are way worse at being predictive than actual theory. A large set of experience incorporating dozens of players of various skill in hundreds of matches is of course the best.

[011121]

I think you're missing the blight tokens. so there is going to be extra dg from those

throw in the on attack and dg and you get a serious threat. Especially if you couple that with Nix. No cheat for defender, yes cheat for rat

I don't have my books with me right now so I'll take a look at how they work when I get home.

[Omenbringer]

Nix's aura isn't on all the time, it's a (0) action. He doesn't have instinctual and he has several 0 actions (although he does get a free (0) if something near him is sacrificed). This means if you go before him in a turn he doesn't have it. And even if you go after him him always using the aura means he's not doing something else. Finally as all the dolls we're talking about have paired even with the aura it's still a straight flip.

Ever read Nix's Gorge on Pain ability? He gets a free 0 action everytime a model is sacrificed within 4" of him (so Drain Essence a The Stolen for debuffing your models, a healing flip and another 0 Action). Screw Instinctual I'll take this everytime (notice also this doesn't have to be a different action like Instinctual does).

Essentially for any attack the doll will do -1, 1, 2, or 3 damage to Nix (with -1 meaning healing 1 due to missing). Each miss then cancels out a light damage. You might well end up with as many hits as misses due to Nix's def, but not all the attacks will be light damage, and he only has 6 health. Out of the huge number of attacks the dolls generate you just need 6 moderate, or 3 severe, or some intermediate point between the two (assuming equal hits and misses so each moderate is worth 1 damage overall and each severe is worth 2). Plus poison from the wickeds.

You haven't factored in Nix using both Drink Spirit and Emptiness together to force your buffed dolls back to a flip (making it again uncheatable by you) while boosting his own duel flips (note also that Drink Spirit doesn't specify it only effects strikes from the targetted model, it is a global boost as written and could target that the Stolen that is going to be saced for healing).

The punches in bunches tactic the Dolls use is essentially the same concept as the Rats, only not as durable (since the dolls cant be replaced if within the of Voracious Rats). And though the Rats may have weak damage output, Nix can buff it by 2 (on a few key rats), The Rat Cathcer can buff it by 1 (on all rats within 6) and of course then there is the blight tokens which add 1 to the damage as well (so weak damage is 5 per hit not 1 for those key rats and 3 per hit otherwise).

If the ratcatcher is real close to hamelin (within 8" then yeah it'd be a suicide run most likely. Outside of 8" lure is not that dangerous to Collodi for the reasons above.

Irrestible Lure is still effective at pulling those Dolls outside of Collodi's small buffing :auras (Hamelin can do this from much further than Collodi and of course cheat and SS the flip high enough that the WP buff wont matter at all. A combined total of 14 from Hamelin puts it out reach of the Dolls completely.

He has no cache which means every soulstone is a soulstone he didn't spend on troops or a scheme he can't score on. Honestly I'd be thrilled to have him forgo schemes. The whole point of this is to outscore him by outmaneuvering him and destroying any forces of his that spread out.

His crew is pretty cheap considering he can get a free 3 SS model each turn, a free rat everytime he sacs a free the Stolen, and this doesn't include the free models he gets everytime a model is killed within range of Voracious Rats. He is going to have SS.

I'll take your word for it regarding the cards, although it's worth noting that if you do run Collodi with Zoraida or some effigies you can get some nice card tricks yourself.

Running Collodi as a henchman weakens him somewhat as you now have spent 10 SS for just him and will only have 20 left for other things (Stiched Togethers and Effigies add up pretty quickly). Yes, Zoraida can summon some herself for free, but that is a fairly expensive thing to do every turn for her (of note is that she cant use her Casting Expert AP to do this either, so she isn't moving anywhere if bringin out Dolls) and will probably leave those new dolls out of range of Collodi's buffs anyways.

true. In any ambush the order of attack priority would be Nix then Catchers, then rats. I'd definitely pause and think about it if the only target was Nix (+his aura) with a catcher and a bunch of rats. If I could use 1 marionette to get there and maybe had help buffing the dolls before hand (Widow weaver, doppelganger, zoraida, or arcane effigy) then it'd be worth a shot.

The more stuff you bring to buff the dolls equates to less dolls you have to buff (and creating them in game means precious AP that will counter your mobility).

As I said he really does have answers to virtually all of this (it ony takes a few games to really see this). Of course as Magicpockets indicated earlier all this is falling on deaf ears as you have already made your decision.

PS though Magicpockets is being fairly modest in regards to his competition in the upcoming tournament, if he weathered a Dreamer list built to beat his Hamelin crew... I am sure he will persever again (I consider him a bunch better than he is letting on).

[magicpockets]

^^ don't forget the marionettes and wicked dolls are both paired, so Nix's emptiness only drops them to a straight flip. I overlooked that at first mate

EDIT : Sorry, noticed you were factoring in Drink Spirit too

[Thechosenone]

worth mentioning, if these attacks occur near to a stolen the dolls suffer -2 wp if the stolen sacrificed. A rat is produced and nix gets a 0 action.

now lure is much harder to resist.

[011121]

Ever read Nix's Gorge on Pain ability? He gets a free 0 action everytime a model is sacrificed within 4" of him (so Drain Essence a The Stolen for debuffing your models, a healing flip and another 0 Action). Screw Instinctual I'll take this everytime (notice also this doesn't have to be a different action like Instinctual does).

Uh, I explicitly mentioned that he had that ability in the text you quoted.

You haven't factored in Nix using both Drink Spirit and Emptiness together to force your buffed dolls back to a flip (making it again uncheatable by you) while boosting his own duel flips (note also that Drink Spirit doesn't specify it only effects strikes from the targetted model, it is a global boost as written and could target that the Stolen that is going to be saced for healing).

Both of those are actions right? I don't have the materials with me so I can't check. In that case the same consideration applies as before- it's possible to strike at him before he gets a chance to go, or after he's gone and chosen not to use those abilities. Alternatively if he uses those abilities every round you are limiting his effectiveness overall (i.e. he's always prepping for an attack that may never come). The last result is much the same as the way Zoraida's obey is sometimes more useful as a denial tactic (keeping the enemy hiding from LOS) rather than an active attack.

My assumptions originally were that Nix would not survive an ambush to use those abilities, but that may be in error due to the spirit characteristic combined on sweet taste of failure. Like I said I need to actually find time to game it out but that may have tipped the balances to making it unlikely the dolls manage to simply tear him apart.

The punches in bunches tactic the Dolls use is essentially the same concept as the Rats, only not as durable (since the dolls cant be replaced if within the of Voracious Rats). And though the Rats may have weak damage output, Nix can buff it by 2 (on a few key rats), The Rat Cathcer can buff it by 1 (on all rats within 6) and of course then there is the blight tokens which add 1 to the damage as well (so weak damage is 5 per hit not 1 for those key rats and 3 per hit otherwise).

fair enough. Is the extra damage with blight tokens inherent on the rats or does it also rely on Nix or the Catcher to go off?

Irrestible Lure is still effective at pulling those Dolls outside of Collodi's small buffing :auras (Hamelin can do this from much further than Collodi and of course cheat and SS the flip high enough that the WP buff wont matter at all. A combined total of 14 from Hamelin puts it out reach of the Dolls completely.

When are you going to find dolls outside of Collodi's buff? Pretty much the only time are those marionettes that were part of the leapfrog movement. But again those guys cannot be moved more than 8" from collodi, which makes lure pretty useless against them (unless hamelin was standing in base to base when casting it).

His crew is pretty cheap considering he can get a free 3 SS model each turn, a free rat everytime he sacs a free the Stolen, and this doesn't include the free models he gets everytime a model is killed within range of Voracious Rats. He is going to have SS.

I know Hamelin can summon stolen but doesn't it take at least an action to do so even if not ss or cards? I do understand that typically his list grows overtime as he manages to get kills and replaces casualties with new rats. But this is dependent on him not losing the models with voracious rats, which is precisely what I'm talking about hitting.

Running Collodi as a henchman weakens him somewhat as you now have spent 10 SS for just him and will only have 20 left for other things (Stiched Togethers and Effigies add up pretty quickly). Yes, Zoraida can summon some herself for free, but that is a fairly expensive thing to do every turn for her (of note is that she cant use her Casting Expert AP to do this either, so she isn't moving anywhere if bringin out Dolls) and will probably leave those new dolls out of range of Collodi's buffs anyways.

If you note the lists I suggested above I used Collodi as a master for the 25ss and Zoraida as a master for 35ss for precisely the reason you give- for a small game it's too expensive to have both a master and henchman. In terms of using Zoraida I'd try to move her with crow up to a highly inaccessable area in the first turn for two reasons-

1) better line of sight for voodoo doll summoning, and

2) to keep her away from enemy attacks

Hamelin's forces don;t have any flying or arachnid that I recall, except for Nix as a spirit, which helps with this sort of ploy. It's not always possible but often you can find a roof, ledge, mesa, something hard to get to. Since the wicked dolls once summoned can teleport to Collodi it works out fine for them. Producing a wicked doll is expensive for her in terms of Ap and the loss of opportunity to summon a VD. Still between her and the widow weaver you have significant ability to replace lost WDs and produce additional ones over the course of the game. I'd aim to have three on hand at most times so one could be killed and you'd still have wicked intentions going.

The more stuff you bring to buff the dolls equates to less dolls you have to buff (and creating them in game means precious AP that will counter your mobility).

True but I'd try to use the WW (arachnid) and Zoraida's crow ability to move into hard to get to areas to prevent direct assault, rather than trying to keep them on the run. The Arcane Effigy is the one model in my list that's really kind of stuck and pretty vulnerable to being hunted down. Although it's not without some decent combat ability.

As I said he really does have answers to virtually all of this (it ony takes a few games to really see this). Of course as Magicpockets indicated earlier all this is falling on deaf ears as you have already made your decision.

Again I think that's really an unfair thing to say. I have been listening to everything you say. I've been evaluating it. When I find it has merit I've been taking it into account. Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I'm inured to counter arguments. It may just mean your counter arguments aren't as compelling as you believe. Or it may be somewhere in between. I think you've been drastically overselling Hamelin's abilities but I'm not accusing you of being close minded. Please afford me the same courtesy.

PS though Magicpockets is being fairly modest in regards to his competition in the upcoming tournament, if he weathered a Dreamer list built to beat his Hamelin crew... I am sure he will persever again (I consider him a bunch better than he is letting on).

I have no reason to believe he's anything but a consummate Hamelin player and I'm quite interested to hear how his tournament goes.

Edited January 6, 2012 by 011121

[nachtnebel]

Both of those are actions right? I don't have the materials with me so I can't check. In that case the same consideration applies as before- it's possible to strike at him before he gets a chance to go, or after he's gone and chosen not to use those abilities. Alternatively if he uses those abilities every round you are limiting his effectiveness overall (i.e. he's always prepping for an attack that may never come).

Drink Spirit is a (1) spell and Emptiness is a (0) action and therefore can be uses for free whenever a model is sacrificed within 4" of nix (which will happen if you want it to).

fair enough. Is the extra damage with blight tokens inherent on the rats or does it also rely on Nix or the Catcher to go off?

As soon as a Rat hits its target, the target receives a Blight Token.

I know Hamelin can summon stolen but doesn't it take at least an action to do so even if not ss or cards? I do understand that typically his list grows overtime as he manages to get kills and replaces casualties with new rats. But this is dependent on him not losing the models with voracious rats, which is precisely what I'm talking about hitting.

Creating a Stolen is a (1) action, no cards needed. As soon as a stolen is killed or sacrificed a Rat is summoned, no matter if a model with Voracious Rats is nearby or not.

[011121]

Drink Spirit is a (1) spell and Emptiness is a (0) action and therefore can be uses for free whenever a model is sacrificed within 4" of nix (which will happen if you want it to).

Thanks for checking (or just knowing). It still appears though that it's possible to strike before either ability is in play). In general Idd expect a Hamelin force to out activate a collodi force, since usually 6 models of the collodi force will all activate together (although maybe not since the rats in proximity all activate together too, right?). That gives the Hamelin player some significant advantages but they have to be careful about which actions they do first since those may be the only actions they get before the big attack comes.

As soon as a Rat hits its target, the target receives a Blight Token.

I meant the extra damage from the token not the token itself, do the rats just get that or do they need a catcher/nix in order to get it?

Creating a Stolen is a (1) action, no cards needed. As soon as a stolen is killed or sacrificed a Rat is summoned, no matter if a model with Voracious Rats is nearby or not.

Fair enough. So bringing in a stole takes 1/3 of hamelin's actions each turn. That's pretty good, and it's certainly easier than collodi's summon a marionette (a (2)), Z.'s summon a wicked (also a (2)), or the Widow weaver's summon a wicked (a (1) but needs a scrap which can be provided by another (1) and discarding 2 cards).

Honestly the growth aspects of a Hamelin list really don't worry me. If I can kill/hex the ratcatchers then I'll kill rats way faster than 1 a turn. If I can't kill the ratcatchers it's probably because he's all clustered up in a ball. Adding another rat to the ball just doesn't really matter.

[nachtnebel]

Thanks for checking (or just knowing). It still appears though that it's possible to strike before either ability is in play). In general Idd expect a Hamelin force to out activate a collodi force, since usually 6 models of the collodi force will all activate together (although maybe not since the rats in proximity all activate together too, right?). That gives the Hamelin player some significant advantages but they have to be careful about which actions they do first since those may be the only actions they get before the big attack comes.

All Rats, that have not been activated this turn, within 4" of a Rat that activates are also activated. But it's also not unusual for Rats to activate 2-3 times per turn (cause the get killed and replaced by new ones).

I meant the extra damage from the token not the token itself, do the rats just get that or do they need a catcher/nix in order to get it?

It's the way Blight Tokens work, if you suffer a Wd while you have a Blight Token you suffer an additional Wd.

Honestly the growth aspects of a Hamelin list really don't worry me. If I can kill/hex the ratcatchers then I'll kill rats way faster than 1 a turn. If I can't kill the ratcatchers it's probably because he's all clustered up in a ball. Adding another rat to the ball just doesn't really matter.

Theoretically Nix can also create one additional Rat per attack if he has Crows, but I'm not sure if that's a good idea.

[011121]

Out of curiousity with the blight tokens is the extra damage part of the attack's damage or separate? Specifically I'm wondering if you have armor 2 and you get bit for 2 + 1 from the blight do you take 1 (3-2) or 2 (2-2, with a min of 1, + 1-2, with a min of 1) total?

[nachtnebel]

Since it doesn't say "+1 Wd" we treat it as an additional source of damage, therefore it won't be affected by Object.

/edit

Btw, it's Wd and not Dg.

[011121]

I was more thinking of filled with stones, but either way...

[magicpockets]

Since it doesn't say "+1 Wd" we treat it as an additional source of damage, therefore it won't be affected by Object.

/edit

Btw, it's Wd and not Dg.

Same with us, resolve the initial damage then do "an extra wound"