When is a spell successfully cast?

[magicpockets]

Okay, a thread came up recently (click here) which started a debate about spell casting and requirements. At first I thought it was some OTT rules lawyering, but a couple of things in a game last night made me wonder if we could get some guidance as to how some older rules fit in with the new approach to spells. Specifically -

1. When is a spell classed as "successfully cast"

Is it -

Beat CC and pay CR -> spell is cast -> opponent tries to resist

or

Beat CC and pay CR -> opponent tries to resist -> if fail, spell is "cast"

For example, Levi has a trigger which gives him a card when a spell is successfully cast. Is that once he beats the total and meets the requirements, or only if his opponent fails to resist it?

2. What constitutes a "Casting Requirement"

Using Levi again, he has spells which do wounds on him as a part of the resolution. Does he take them before or after his opponent tries to resist the spell? Old rules would say he only takes them if the enemy fails to resist, but if they're now classed as a "Casting requirement" (like Hamelin sacrificing a model or Collette discarding a soulstone) he should take them before his opponent flips to resist.

If things like this are now "casting requirements", is there a way to define what aspects of a spell are "casting requirements"? Is it as simple as "something which costs you, i.e. losing models, wounds, tokens, soulstones" or is there more to it than that?

For example, is the free walk as a part of Menace classed as a casting requirement? Do you do the walk if you beat the casting total or only if it isn't resisted? (This is from the other thread and, whilst I didn't agree with the need to ask it at first, now appears to be a valid question)

---

Hope the above makes sense guys and I've been able to explain where the confusion has come from.

Edited December 30, 2011 by magicpockets

[tadaka]

Spell is cast when meet the casting requirements. Even if resisted you will still get on cast trigger.

Levi will take wounds before resist check. Edit to avoid confusion.

Edited December 30, 2011 by tadaka

[ArcticFox]

Indeed. Doesn't it say somewhere that the resist duel takes place after the spell is successfully cast?

[tadaka]

Eh i just know this came up with double take and it was changed to after model resists as original wording made it crazy easy to chain cast pre nekima nurf

[Twisted Metal]

Levi will take wounds before resist check. Edit to avoid confusion.

I disagree with this. Levi taking wounds from his spells is part of the spell effect not the casting cost. If the target resists the spell there are no effects thus he does not take the wounds. It would be great if Levi could take the wound even if the opponent resists the spells but I dont think that how it works.

[tadaka]

Eh about 98% sure this was ruled on by a martial. While back but cant.find the post atm.

[Oshova]

Isn't the wording about losing wounds at the end of the text for the spells? With summoning for Nicodem, it is before the text about summoning. So I would play it like I read it. With Levi, if you successfully get through the first parts of the text, THEN remove wounds. With Nicodem, you sacrifice Corpse Counters THEN summon. But with both, nothing happens until you reach the casting total, and you get past the resist (admittedly Nicodem's has no resist . . .). And that is how I will continue playing until it is ruled otherwise.

[Kadeton]

It's an Additional Requirement if it's something the caster has to lose or spend (wounds, soulstones, sacrifices) or designated with AR:... and it's in the first sentence of the spell description. (RM, page 53, section D)

This applies to all of Levi's spells except Unnatural Wasting (which has no AR) and Desolation (which determines how many Wd are taken after Wd are inflicted on the opponent). He must elect to take the Wd for Entropic Transformation and Necrotic Unmaking before the opponent makes a Resist duel (no resist for Blessings of Desolation, obviously).

And yes, the caster determines whether the spell is successful before the opponent makes a Resist duel. A resisted spell has still been successfully cast, so you can still draw a card due to Disciplined Caster.

The Menace thing is interesting, but I don't believe the Movement effect is an AR (though I personally think it should be). This is essentially because Datsue-ba's spell No Escaping is a pure movement effect with a Wp resist, so resisting the spell must cancel the movement, even though it's applied to the caster rather than the target.

[Twisted Metal]

It's an Additional Requirement if it's something the caster has to lose or spend (wounds, soulstones, sacrifices) or designated with AR:... and it's in the first sentence of the spell description. (RM, page 53, section D)

Huh would you look at that... Finally a win for Levi!!!

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

It's an Additional Requirement if it's something the caster has to lose or spend (wounds, soulstones, sacrifices) or designated with AR:... and it's in the first sentence of the spell description. (RM, page 53, section D)

This applies to all of Levi's spells except Unnatural Wasting (which has no AR) and Desolation (which determines how many Wd are taken after Wd are inflicted on the opponent). He must elect to take the Wd for Entropic Transformation and Necrotic Unmaking before the opponent makes a Resist duel (no resist for Blessings of Desolation, obviously).

And yes, the caster determines whether the spell is successful before the opponent makes a Resist duel. A resisted spell has still been successfully cast, so you can still draw a card due to Disciplined Caster.

The Menace thing is interesting, but I don't believe the Movement effect is an AR (though I personally think it should be). This is essentially because Datsue-ba's spell No Escaping is a pure movement effect with a Wp resist, so resisting the spell must cancel the movement, even though it's applied to the caster rather than the target.

Eh i just know this came up with double take and it was changed to after model resists as original wording made it crazy easy to chain cast pre nekima nurf

Kadeton is right, on ar. You only pay for casting if it says AR. Also you pay AR before casting flip.

I'm pretty sure tadaka is right but this might be a wording difference between triggers as to when the trigger is declared. Don't have the books here.

Edit: from malifaux fixes

Double-Take' should now say 'After defender fails to resist' not 'After successfullycasting'.

Wording difference.

Edited December 30, 2011 by Mr. Bigglesworth

[Wolfgar]

I'm pretty sure that a successful resist does not make the spell fail. It just means that the resisting model avoids any effects of the spell. Since the wounds affect Levi, not the target model, he should still take the wounds even if the target model resists.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

Nope effects of spells are only go off if spell is successful. If resisted no effects. Ar is different where you pay before trying to cast. Now there are exceptions, but they are explicit, for example you pay wounds like punkz even if not resisted but after succesfully casting.

None of Levi require you to pay if resisted.

[Kadeton]

Nope effects of spells are only go off if spell is successful. If resisted no effects. Ar is different where you pay before trying to cast. Now there are exceptions, but they are explicit, for example you pay wounds like punkz even if not resisted but after succesfully casting.

None of Levi require you to pay if resisted.

Um... yes, they do. You have to pay the Wd before the opponent even gets to attempt to resist, otherwise the spell fails. Check the Casting Sequence section (RM, pp. 51-54), with particular attention to the Additional Requirements. Any spell that requires spending wounds in its first sentence treats that as an AR. (It's not explicitly listed as an AR because the idea was introduced after Book 2 was released, so they made it backwards-compatible.)

[Wolfgar]

The Rules Manuel doesn't say if a spell is resisted that it fails. It also doesn't say none of the effects happen. It says a successfully resisting model avoids the effects of the spell.

[tadaka]

It is not an effect of the spell its a cost for the spell. The newer models say AR older ones dont. They added AR for spells like his just to spell out hey this is a cost of casting not an effect. Levi takes wounds when casting the spells even on resist.

[Q'iq'el]

The Rules Manuel doesn't say if a spell is resisted that it fails. It also doesn't say none of the effects happen. It says a successfully resisting model avoids the effects of the spell.

I think there is some confusion as to how the rules apply to Spells in contrast as to how they apply to Talents (Abilities and Actions).

According to the rulings on these forums, Abilities and Actions can succeed only if all the effects succeed and vice-versa, if even one effect is impossible or fails, entire ability fails.

That means everything, including cost of Abilities (for example Body Counter cost of Arise) can be avoided if the ability fails (for example there isn't enough space around Nicodem to place even one Mindless Zombie with Arise).

This is mostly based on forum rulings, I think. I couldn't find anything to that effect in the Rules Manual, but I might have been looking in the wrong places.

It seems that Spells, on the other hand, are two stage:

Stage 1: Casting Duel. Result beating the CC means that:

a. the requirements must be met (AR, or the cost in the items/stats defined in the Rules Manual, as long as it is in the first sentence)

b. the caster succeeds

c. the effects are applied.

Logically, if the spell doesn't succeed, the effects are not applied and the AR don't have to be met.

Stage 2: Resist Duel.

This is where things get fishy. Traditionally we assumed that it is same as Actions - if the Spell gets resisted, and some of its effects fail, it all fails. The RM doesn't say that.

All it says is that the Resisting model avoid spell's effects.

Doesn't it means the effects must be avoidable first? You can avoid damage or getting paralyzed, but how can you avoid your opponent pushing the caster?

It seems from this a successful resists should be selective, blocking only these effects that would otherwise affect the target, but not necessarily the effects that affect the caster (as long as the conditions are met of course).

But that may simply be a case of reading too deep into it. "Avoiding its effects" may refer to all effects (you as a player avoid them, rather than the resisting model avoids them, though this would go against the text). My gut tells me this is the RAI here and that's how the ruling will go.

Edited December 31, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[Kadeton]

It seems that Spells, on the other hand, are two stage:

Stage 1: Casting Duel. Result higher than CC means that:

a. the caster succeeds

b. the requirements must be med (AR, or the cost in the items/stats defined in the Rules Manual, as long as it is in the first sentence)

c. the effects are applied.

Logically, if the spell doesn't succeed, the effects are not applied and the AR don't have to be met.

Hmm, not quite right.

The caster has to beat the CC. Then, they have to meet the AR. Only if they do both of those things is the spell successfully cast.

Obviously if you don't beat the CC, you can just refuse to pay the AR, since the spell will fail anyway. ARs are not mandatory, you can always choose not to pay them (but the spell will fail if you do).

[Q'iq'el]

Fixed

[von Clausewitz]

There is literally no ambiguity in the rules manual regarding when a spell is cast. RM p. 53, "Casting Spells" Part 2, section "F" reads:

"If the caster's final Duel total (the casting total) is equal to or greater than the CC, includes at least one of each suit in the TN, and the caster has met any additional requirements for the Spell, the caster has won the Duel and has successfully cast the Spell." (italics added)

Additionally, this clearly resolves the question concerning if additional requirements, such as Levi suffering wounds, are used when a model resists the successfully cast spell because part 2, section "D" States that additional requirements "must be met in order for the Spell to be cast." Since the spell is cast prior to resist attempts, as shown above, additional requirements are also consumed prior to resist attempts.

[Buhallin]

One thing to be careful of - the outline on pg 51 of the Rules Manual is missing steps which are included on pg 52-53. Confused the heck out of me looking for the rules for additional requirements and successful casting

[Oshova]

Does this mean with 1 off spells (such as Obey), if you successfully meet beat the CC, but the target beats the TN, that the spell counts as being successfully cast, and as such can't be cast again? =p

[tadaka]

Thats my understanding.

[Kadeton]

Does this mean with 1 off spells (such as Obey), if you successfully meet beat the CC, but the target beats the TN, that the spell counts as being successfully cast, and as such can't be cast again? =p

Yep. The only reference to being allowed to attempt once-per-turn spells more than once is in the (Failure) section of F. Caster Determines Success (RM p. 53), before Resist duels happen. If the spell is successfully cast and then resisted, you don't get to try it again.

[magicpockets]

Does this mean with 1 off spells (such as Obey), if you successfully meet beat the CC, but the target beats the TN, that the spell counts as being successfully cast, and as such can't be cast again? =p

Thats my understanding.

Yep. The only reference to being allowed to attempt once-per-turn spells more than once is in the (Failure) section of F. Caster Determines Success (RM p. 53), before Resist duels happen. If the spell is successfully cast and then resisted, you don't get to try it again.

I think we need RM guidance here now. Since day 0 the deal with obey has been if it is resisted you can try to cast it again, but the actual rules as they stand now do say that you cast it and then the opponent tries to resist it, which means a resisted obey is your cast per turn.

For the record, page 52-53 of the Rule Book sets out the stages in casting -

1. Casting Duel where you try to beat the Casting Cost and meet Additional Requirements, and if you do both "the caster has won the Duel and has successfully cast the spell"

2. Then you go into the resist stage of the casting process.

So fairly black and white, but a RM clarification that the way we've played it previously is now superseded by this interpretation of the rules would be useful.

[Oshova]

I think we need RM guidance here now. Since day 0 the deal with obey has been if it is resisted you can try to cast it again, but the actual rules as they stand now do say that you cast it and then the opponent tries to resist it, which means a resisted obey is your cast per turn.

For the record, page 52-53 of the Rule Book sets out the stages in casting -

1. Casting Duel where you try to beat the Casting Cost and meet Additional Requirements, and if you do both "the caster has won the Duel and has successfully cast the spell"

2. Then you go into the resist stage of the casting process.

So fairly black and white, but a RM clarification that the way we've played it previously is now superseded by this interpretation of the rules would be useful.

That is a good summary, a resisted cast is 2 duel. One against the CC, and then the result of that becomes a TN for the defendant to beat.

But this is definitely something that needs clearing up by an RM

[Headcase2]

I'm fairly certain this has been cleared up by a marshal before, but due to the immense heap of threads with "Obey" in them it's hard to find the relevant ones.

Here you go:

http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=24415&page=2&highlight=obey

Post 6 and final post.

Edited January 3, 2012 by Headcase2