Pandora + Pacify

[thehairycaber]

Hi all,

I'd take the time to search for this, but I wouldn't even know what I am looking for in the first place. For reference, I was running Viktoria's crew.

I am looking for clarification on Pacify, which (from memory) allows Pandora to be placed 4's" away from currently location; then get to use another (0) action - aka Pacify.

In a game today, the player was using Pacify, moving 4" then Self Loathing (Emo Spell) and then Pacify again on another model. Once or twice was ok, but 4 Pacify and 3 Self Loathing in one activation? It was like, why did you bother bringing Candy/Cade/Sorrows; your getting the job done with one fricking model?

Oh and just to be fair, I did play him a second time; with the same result - me wondering when I could go home

[Tarragon]

Pacify states "If successful, this action may be used again this activation" A seperate effect, Fading Memory, allows Pandora to push 4" when she wins a Wp duel (such as the duel generated through Pacify). So, if you win the WP duel from pacify, you will push 4" (cause a wound through Emotional Trauma) and have the ability to Pacify again during your activation.

This is the basis of Pandora's mobility and general pain.

[011121]

The thing is you can only target a given model once with incite/pacify in a given turn. If there are enough targets yes Pandora can zip all around nicking each of them for a wound. This is her main mobility and one of her two main attack methods (the other being self loathing). If you space your forces out you can reduce her ability to use pacify/incite. Also if you win one of these duels the chain effect ends, you take no damage, and she may be stuck in a less than advantageous position.

[thehairycaber]

So essentially he was playing it correctly, thanks for that.

[dbr_83]

Running the Vik's vs Pandora will always be an uphill struggle due to their lack of Wp and the high Df of Pandora's minions. The Vik player up at our LGS has never come close to causing significant damage... One of the reasons he went and got a Sonnia Kriid box lol

The one thing you can try to do is predict where Pandora will go with her Fading Memory train and cheat your way to a Wp win, forcing her to stop where she doesn't want to be and try to jump her then. Good start in theory, but hard to pull off admittedly.

[thehairycaber]

I'll just say thanks for the advice, as I don't want to post; what I really want to say.

[Tarragon]

I'll just say thanks for the advice, as I don't want to post; what I really want to say.

I'm imagining it's rather colourful. My opponent was the same when I started with Pandora.

...I play Lilith now...

[011121]

Would freikorps trappers help? A little sniper action. Also the librarian can heal (particularly viks since healing one heals the other). You might try simply negating her damage output. Also the specialist (or anyone with blasts) can make her unhappy by targeting her sorrows and using the templates to crisp her (martyr only affects attacks against her).

you might also consider viktorias avatar. It's a ridiculous whirlwind of death and has a large amount of health and a decent 6 WP. The real risk will be her self loathing attack. You'd need to avoid that at all costs. Meanwhile the viks will just destroy the rest of Pandora's forces hopefully letting your other guys achieve objectives.

Edited December 30, 2011 by 011121

[011121]

I suppose I could also just post this link in case you haven't seen it:

http://pullmyfinger.wikispaces.com/Pandora#Playing%20Against%20Pandora

[thehairycaber]

I'm imagining it's rather colourful. My opponent was the same when I started with Pandora.

...I play Lilith now...

It's no so much colourful, as trying to understand how Wyrd can offer Pandora as a Starter. I get it now, Pandora herself isn't wrong; its the fact that Pacify/Incite are (0) Actions with bonus "sand to the face" in natural abilities (Emotional Fear/Fading Memory). That is an edge that takes Pandora over the reasonable level, into "I'm going to kick you in the face lots of times, just because I can" level of game play.

As a new player, that does not encourage me to play; if anything I am thinking of slinging painted Kirai and Viks models on Ebay. As for the suggestions of buying this model or that crew, thanks but why should I have to be buying extra models; straight out of the box? That just makes a reasonable hobby (to some it's a hobby...ya know fun?), into an expensive one; out of the reach of some gamers like me.

Overall my intro into Malifaux has been less than appealing, fair do's to those that like it and play it. I just think I'll stick with other gaming systems.

[Bigkid]

Bye then.

I wish you luck in your quest to find a tabletop game that allows you to defeat your opponent without the need for any form of tactic or effort.

One that doesn't require you to buy a single additional model after the initial starter box (Monopoly maybe??)

[dbr_83]

If you think playing against Pandora is painful, try taking on Hamelin... But seriously, if you expect to play a tabletop war game (any one, doesn't matter), you will never be able to face every force with just your starter box. It's a simple fact of the genre. Also a simple fact, Pandora CAN be beaten. She was my first master, I knew nothing about her or the game really, I just liked the psychotic kiddies and the look of her. Playing her takes finesse, especially once people know what she can do.

And yes, I play as a hobby. I'm just as happy if I win or lose, because I love the fluff, the characters, the general atmosphere of everything Malifaux. Making yourself capable of winning isn't going to diminish that.

[Mike3838]

You say you have Kirai as well as the Viks, but it sounds like you didn't use Kirai in either of your games.

She would have been a better choice in a game where you knew you'd be facing Pandora, which is the kind of thing you pick up with experience. Pandora doesn't have as much of an easy ride against Kirai, that she has with melee focussed Masters that can stab themselves to death.

Of course Kirai needs a couple more models on top of her starter (blister of Seishin, a Shikome, possibly a Gaki or two) to give you access to all her summoning options and allow you to use her properly. Sorry if that's not what you want to hear, but it's the reality of any game system you care to name.

Mike

[Kadeton]

It's no so much colourful, as trying to understand how Wyrd can offer Pandora as a Starter. I get it now, Pandora herself isn't wrong; its the fact that Pacify/Incite are (0) Actions with bonus "sand to the face" in natural abilities (Emotional Fear/Fading Memory). That is an edge that takes Pandora over the reasonable level, into "I'm going to kick you in the face lots of times, just because I can" level of game play.

I think you might be confusing the idea of a "Starter" box with a "Great introduction to the game" box. The Starters are just a cheaper way to get the basics of a particular Master's crew, they're not in any way easier or more suitable for new players. What I found when I started playing was that experienced players could simply destroy my crew and I didn't understand how to beat them (this still happens sometimes, most recently with a Leveticus player). Getting your head around the different ways that Masters work and their relative strengths a weaknesses takes time and the interactions can be very complex, so if that's not your sort of thing then a different game is probably better for you.

As a new player, that does not encourage me to play; if anything I am thinking of slinging painted Kirai and Viks models on Ebay. As for the suggestions of buying this model or that crew, thanks but why should I have to be buying extra models; straight out of the box? That just makes a reasonable hobby (to some it's a hobby...ya know fun?), into an expensive one; out of the reach of some gamers like me.

Losing is pretty discouraging, especially when you can't see what you did wrong or how to fix it. The initial learning curve is steep, and it takes a while to understand how things work the way they do.

One of the foundations of the game's system is crew selection - ideally you have a range of models available to select from, so that you can account for different enemies. Playing with just some starter boxes is like playing with the Black Reach set for 40K... it's not really representative of the actual game, and the same side always loses because it's fundamentally outmatched. The Masters in this game are not balanced against each other, at all - it's more of a rock-paper-scissors approach. Honestly though, I can't think of any system where you get a decent game from starter sets.

Overall my intro into Malifaux has been less than appealing, fair do's to those that like it and play it. I just think I'll stick with other gaming systems.

That's fair enough. It's a rewarding game, but a demanding one, and if it doesn't suit you, I hope you find something that does.

[dbr_83]

Just a quick question... Which other mini/tabletop games have you played?

[magicpockets]

This thread is sad to read. I get the OP's pain and I hope he gives himself chance to get deeper into the game, it's really worth the effort.

[Ratty]

It's no so much colourful, as trying to understand how Wyrd can offer Pandora as a Starter. I get it now, Pandora herself isn't wrong; its the fact that Pacify/Incite are (0) Actions with bonus "sand to the face" in natural abilities (Emotional Fear/Fading Memory). That is an edge that takes Pandora over the reasonable level, into "I'm going to kick you in the face lots of times, just because I can" level of game play.

As a new player, that does not encourage me to play; if anything I am thinking of slinging painted Kirai and Viks models on Ebay. As for the suggestions of buying this model or that crew, thanks but why should I have to be buying extra models; straight out of the box? That just makes a reasonable hobby (to some it's a hobby...ya know fun?), into an expensive one; out of the reach of some gamers like me.

Overall my intro into Malifaux has been less than appealing, fair do's to those that like it and play it. I just think I'll stick with other gaming systems.

Pandora is a touch wierd to get the hang of, but by no mean OP. There are tricks to beating her. If you can break her pacify chain she can get trapped in the middle of your force with no means to get away. She is a pain to target but if you take Misaki or Lazerus you can catch her in the blasts and she will go down really fast.

When I first started I had Kirai and my only opponent was Pandora, I had a few WTF moments but in the end won more than I lost against her. The trick is to know what she can do. Sometimes the best thing is to avoid her and do objectives. If she can't target any of your models due to them being hidden she can only move 6" a turn so it is possible just to avoid her.

BTW the OP reminds me of my first couple of posts on the board. I definitely had a similar reaction my first game against Pandora, if you want a laugh do a search for them.

[Stonedog-7]

Quite the breath of fresh air to see this aimed at Pandora again... Dreamer & Hamelin have been hogging the limelight

Pandora is definitely tricky to deal with and can be killer to learn against if the Pandora player has read up on how to use her and the opponent hasn't read up on how to play against her (yeah, i was the pandora player and gave some people those rough opening games until people started learning to weather the storm)... though i'd say her ability to lock key pieces out of the game with Dementia & the Mental Anguish trigger is the tougher thing to cope with than her pacify/incite chaining movement

The thing to do with regards to her movement is to try to break that chain when she's sat where you want her, or just right at the start... if she fails a single pacify then she can't recast it... models with Stubborn and a cheated 13 can suddenly bring her to a halt particularly if she had to cheat first

Otherwise definitely keep your schemes and strategies in mind and try not to let her start chaining or position models so if she does start moving she'll run out of targets fast

The started box for her is also incredibly well built and self contained compared to some of the others... you don't NEED to add anything at all to have a very effective list at 25ss

[011121]

It's no so much colourful, as trying to understand how Wyrd can offer Pandora as a Starter. I get it now, Pandora herself isn't wrong; its the fact that Pacify/Incite are (0) Actions with bonus "sand to the face" in natural abilities (Emotional Fear/Fading Memory). That is an edge that takes Pandora over the reasonable level, into "I'm going to kick you in the face lots of times, just because I can" level of game play.

As a new player, that does not encourage me to play; if anything I am thinking of slinging painted Kirai and Viks models on Ebay. As for the suggestions of buying this model or that crew, thanks but why should I have to be buying extra models; straight out of the box? That just makes a reasonable hobby (to some it's a hobby...ya know fun?), into an expensive one; out of the reach of some gamers like me.

Overall my intro into Malifaux has been less than appealing, fair do's to those that like it and play it. I just think I'll stick with other gaming systems.

Probably the biggest headache for new players is thinking the game is designed to be balanced between masters. It just isn't. There are masters who have an almost impossible time winning against other masters. The game is designed to be balanced between factions. For instance within outcasts Vik and ophelia are going to really struggle against Lilith but Hamelin may eat her soul (literally as it were).

Also keep in mind it isn't necessary to destroy the enemy to win, depending on your strategy and schemes it may actually get you nothing to wipe them out to a man. Very different than most wargames I've played.

Edited December 30, 2011 by 011121

[dbr_83]

011121 hit the nail right on the head there. This game isn't about boarding (destroying) your opponent. It is a game about strategies and winning more points then the other person. The lads up our LGS had the exact grumblings you do when we first played the beginner's clamshells and I happened to have Pandora from the get go. I won most games and there wasn't a lot that could be done. Then we moved from 'beat the snot outta the other guy' to actually playing the game as the devs designed it. Once strategies and schemes came into it, things evened out fairly quickly.

Stick it out and consider these early games as a lesson in what the enemy CAN do, while seeing what you can come up with to make them bleed as much as possible. When they're over just hitting each other repeatedly with a table, you can then play the real game.

[iamthefly]

I know that this thread is cooling off a little, and Hairy Caber prob won't be back, but don't give up coz you got smashed dude, I play pandora and I can easily lose. Especially against Sonia Crid. Pan can't cast a spell anywhere near Crid or her Stalkers, which she can grow more of out of your dead models, which more or less leaves her with nothing.

Pandora isn't overpowered, if your oponent was using the Ortegas or Hamlin or Dreamer or Lilith or Justice (coz you daren't hit her) you'd probably have lost your first 2 games just as quickly. I lost 2 games against the Ortagas in a hour with my Nicodem crew and I have been at this a while, too much focussed firepower. People here just said, "buy this model, try this tactic, keep at it". I'm gonna pay them Ortagas a visit soon...

See the 'Basic help with Nicodem' thread in the Rezzers section.

I feel your pain dude, I've been there. Its just a shame it was your first intro and you expected it to be close, but losing is half of what games is about.

I would't expect to win my first 10 games in a new system against more experienced players. I might, or come very close often, but it shouldn't be expected.

[Ratty]

TBH I always assume that I will lose my first game against a new Master. I might know the rules, but having read the rules and playing a crew are very different. Every crew in the game has subtle or hidden nuences, even crews that look straight up. Sonnia looks like a ranged blast caster, but there is much more to her than that.

[Oshova]

Even just playing the against the same master, but a different person can cause difficulties. If you have only played against one player using that master, then there are probably 5+ things they weren't doing to synergise different models, and that will throw you off a bit.

[Sandwich]

Wow, the first two pages just killed it for the new guy.

Poor dude. :/

Pandora is THE worst master to play first.

At least Hamelin will wipe the board clean after the first couple turns so you can call it a day.

When you're brand new to the game and you play Pandora she just stops you from doing absolutely everything you want to do.

I just wish there was anything I could say to change your mind, but I know how it feels when you play a master like Pandora or Hamelin and come to the forum and then all you get is

1. Play more, you don't know your models and so you're losing.

2. Buy more, you don't have the right models so you're always going to lose.

3. Cheese back and if you don't you've lost.

- - - -

OP if you do come back, just give the game another chance versus another crew that isn't Hamelin or Pandora.

The Neverborn are kind of the beginner faction, their entire roster is compromised of fast, tough, high damage models, many of which have all kinds of goofy cheese they can bring to the board.

Try something like Kirai versus Victorias, or Victorias versus Sonia, or anything but Pandora versus anyone.

I don't want to beat the dead horse, but Pandora takes little finesse to play but a lot of finesse to beat, but once you figure out her stupid tricks, she becomes a lot easier to handle.

Just give the game another chance.

Edited January 2, 2012 by Sandwich