Second and Third book thoughts

[011121]

I got the son the second and third books for christmas and have read through them myself before hand

I'll post some thoughts about the game rules, fiction, etc. in follow up posts. Consider this a SPOILER warning if you don't want to know about either book.

[011121]

The fiction is... troublesome, I guess. It's not that I dislike it per se, but it leaves me uneasy in a couple ways. Sometimes, not always, the prose is clumsy and formulaic. And while I am a big proponent of not leading the reader around by the nose I think this goes too far the other way leaving just too much in doubt. then too it also suffers from the usual bane of game fiction- fiction that does not reflect the game. That is, things happen in the game that the fiction explicitly forbids or vice versa. This is jarring and annoying.

Finally there's a real sense of timing that is off in terms of when the fiction shows up. An awful lot of the third book fiction seemed like it really belonged in the second book as

it was mostly about models introduced in that book. Hoffman, Kaeris, Molly, Ryle, Lucius, Nytmare, Silent Ones, Snow Storm, Gunsmiths, Necrotic Machines, Rogue Necromancies, Collodi, Marionettes, Hollow waifs, and Desperate Mercenaries all play major roles in the

fiction of the third book despite being introduced in the second book and having extremely little fiction in that book about them (most of those named have absolutely no mention in the second book fiction at all). It very much feels like several pieces in the third book were written for the second and delayed til this book. While this is not exactly the end of the world it's disconderting to have the fiction consistently out of phse with the game material. Precious few of the units introduced in the third book have any story coverage at all, presumably we'll get that in the fourth book.

Despite all this A Great Adventure and the tale of the Witchling Stalker deserve special mention as being quite enjoyable, also the Oyabun of the Dervish Swords was a cool bad guy if a little heavy on the mid-boss vibe.

Actually there is one more thing that bothers me about the fiction- it is starkly anti-faction. What I mean by that is the game is heavily influenced by a faction identity- it controls allegiances and thus what units can work together. Factions are balanced against each other, rather than individual masters being balanced against each other. This suggests an at least superficially unified front against enemies, and yet that's not at all what we find. According to the fiction the dreamer is very much afraid of the other neverborn masters. Sonia is practically a guild outlaw. Rasputina seems to be completely at odds with the rest of the Arcanists. Ironically it seems the ressurectionists are the only group that manage to all tolerate each other. We get precious few examples of a faction master working together with other faction minions besides their usual crew (for instance Lady J does work with two Ortega brothers in one story, and that's the only one I can think of) and at the same time we get examples of cross faction masters working together (McMourning and Marcus). It just really doesn't fit with the game mechanics.

This may seem overly picky and anal. I understand that complaint, it's easy to say "hey it's just a game and they wrote some stories, who cares?" The thing is, as I see it the point of the stories is to make the world richer and the setting thus more fun to play. Fiction that runs contrary to the game rules does just the opposite. Now when I think about building an arcanist force I feel an immediate negative reaction to the idea of a force combinging Tina and anything except cult of december, because that's what the setting (as exemplified by the fiction) supports, and really only that. I don't want to put Snowstorm and Blessed of December in the same force because I know that settings wise that should be impossible. The fiction has become a net negative to my enjoyment of the game because while it's an interesting world that it paints, it isn't the world of malifaux I can play in, if that makes sense.

[Ratty]

I think it's actually fairly true of a lot of systems. If you look closely at 40K there are quite a few characters that weren't even alive at the same time that you can take in the same force. It's even the same with WFB. You can take the Lord level Manfred in the same crew as Conrad, though by the time Manfred got to this level of power Conrad had been dead for quite a few years.

Also quite a few of the stories are largely about new models though older models appear. The Witchling Stalker story introduces the Handler, The story of Zephir introduces the Widow Weaver. A lot of the stories are indirectly about the Avatars. OK there are a few stories that aren't but out of them most move on the main storyline and even they generally introduce new characters.

[fritz the cat]

I think the characters/minions overlapping the books gives them a sense of cohesion so they dont quite just pop out of nowhere. Even though it may feel wierd if you look at each books stories as a standalone apart from each other

[011121]

Units

I'm really not sure I like the implementation of henchmen and special forces. It essentially means that you have subsets of units that can only be used by a specific master which may be good for sales but is annoying as a customer. Furthermore I think the rules are too limiting on henchmen requiring them to only use their special forces and maybe one or two other types of units. It seems ridiculous for instance that Ophelia can't use pigs, only kin and gremlins despite pigs being integral to gremlin life. Why can't lucious requisition a guild peacekeeper? Too limiting.

I'll have to try out the avatars to really get a sense for them. I do like the mechanic of manifesting them where the more achievements and later the turn the less AP it takes. This pleases me.

the exorcist seems like an attempt to redress the imbalance of certain types of troops (yoohoo soulless I'm looking at yooooouuuu...) but isn't nearly enough in my opinion.

thematically I like the four riders. Haven't used them and they're complicated enough I don't have an opinion on implementation but like the idea. I was initially taken aback by Levi being a tool against the tyrants but as I thought about it entropy would represent a threat to entities trying to concentrate as much energy as possible within themselves.

I was disappointed by the witchling handler. I can't really say why, she's just not what I wanted in a witchling buffer.

I really don't get why effigies are special forces instead of totems. They'd be an example of something where I sort of like the idea but I'm not really liking the implementation.

They seem overly complicated for no good reason.

Crooligan, why special forces?

I can see why they'd like to flesh out Seamus options more but the dead doxy seems very similar to the belle, do we really need both?

drowned are definitely in the same mould as the crooked men and hanged but I like them anyway.

Rafkin makes a nice connection between McMourning and Nicodem and I can easily see him in either force.

Angelica seems useful, and I can see where Colette players might like having another named showgirl option besides Cassandra.

Blessed of december is basically a cerberus, what with leap, stalker, and the gaze instead of howl. It trades fewer attacks for some nice healing. Pretty nice overall.

I do like that we see a few units that are cross faction, such as the effigies and fire gamin.

slate ridge mauler- well I guess we know why bear skin armor is so damn good. Cheap enough Miranda can copy it. Nice stats. Me likey! Picture kind of sucks though.

Silurids- like the concept, okay with the implementation. Amphibean bothers me though. It says the creatures gain +2 walk while moving in water terrain. Would make more sense if it just said it gains the bonus if it starts in water, otherwise what happens if I leave the water terrain, do I lose the 2"? What if losing that means I can't get out of the water? Can I designate when I use the bonus 2" or is it always the last 2? as written it raises lots of questions. Why do silurid mothers and babys have poison when regular silurids don't? seems decidedly odd. It's too bad no growth mechanism exists to turn gupps into regular silurids.

Widow weaver- like her. A ranged damaging spell that causes a morale duel? Yes sir!

Lazarus- Holy cr@p! Auto fire on a weapon with blasts? Yikes. And why is patchwork armor better than most other armors? Pretty nasty.

Ten thunder brothers- Love these guys. I really hope they upgrade Misaki to at least a henchman. I'd really like to have an all three kingdoms force. Maybe I'll get the viks and paint them up to be asian.

[011121]

I think it's actually fairly true of a lot of systems. If you look closely at 40K there are quite a few characters that weren't even alive at the same time that you can take in the same force. It's even the same with WFB. You can take the Lord level Manfred in the same crew as Conrad, though by the time Manfred got to this level of power Conrad had been dead for quite a few years.

Like I said it's a bane of most game fiction, although it's worth pointing out that in warhammer/40k special characters are the exception and not the rule.

Also quite a few of the stories are largely about new models though older models appear. The Witchling Stalker story introduces the Handler, The story of Zephir introduces the Widow Weaver. A lot of the stories are indirectly about the Avatars. OK there are a few stories that aren't but out of them most move on the main storyline and even they generally introduce new characters.

I haven't counted but I'd put it maybe 50-50. The only stories that seem about the avatars are the short fictions immediately preceding them. There are several tina stories but none of them involve her golem body thing for instance. Actually, the Levi and Zoraida stuff does either directly or indirectly reference their avatars (zoraida is young, levi has a connection to the riders).

[Omenbringer]

I actually enjoy the "leaving just too much in doubt" aspect of the stories. It leaves a sense that each vieing faction only has and sees a portion of the truth. And of course the best part is that everyone gets to form their own opinion of how the story will progress (only to be proven wrong or right later).

Of course I do think that the differing writing styles can be attributed to the number of authors they actually employ for each book (according to the credits it is 6).

[Ratty]

Units

I'm really not sure I like the implementation of henchmen and special forces. It essentially means that you have subsets of units that can only be used by a specific master which may be good for sales but is annoying as a customer. Furthermore I think the rules are too limiting on henchmen requiring them to only use their special forces and maybe one or two other types of units. It seems ridiculous for instance that Ophelia can't use pigs, only kin and gremlins despite pigs being integral to gremlin life. Why can't lucious requisition a guild peacekeeper? Too limiting.

I can see why you feel this, though I understand why it was done. With the number of models increasing in the game the number of interactions goes up expenentially. SF allows them to move certain powerful models outside of this so that they can never be used together. You can't have a Librarian and a Soulstone miner in the same force. And limit the number in forces. Unless you play Lucius you can only take 2 Elite Division. Ophelia can't take pigs, but she can take all the kin not just 2 of them.

I'll have to try out the avatars to really get a sense for them. I do like the mechanic of manifesting them where the more achievements and later the turn the less AP it takes. This pleases me.

the exorcist seems like an attempt to redress the imbalance of certain types of troops (yoohoo soulless I'm looking at yooooouuuu...) but isn't nearly enough in my opinion.

It gives you the option in a Guild force which is predominantly living to give you a bit of a buff against certain crews that have things that target living like Terrifying, or the ability to use your corpses to increase there numbers. TBH I think it's fine, the models good value for SS cost but not over the top.

And what's the issue with Soulless? they don't drop corpse counters and don't take terrifying tests.. They don't seem that over the top compared to other types of non-living.

thematically I like the four riders. Haven't used them and they're complicated enough I don't have an opinion on implementation but like the idea. I was initially taken aback by Levi being a tool against the tyrants but as I thought about it entropy would represent a threat to entities trying to concentrate as much energy as possible within themselves.

I was disappointed by the witchling handler. I can't really say why, she's just not what I wanted in a witchling buffer.

Hmm, I've heard good things about her in play, she has a very long range on quite a few of the buffs

I really don't get why effigies are special forces instead of totems. They'd be an example of something where I sort of like the idea but I'm not really liking the implementation.

They seem overly complicated for no good reason.

Collodi had the least available models out of all the Henchmen, he could take Marrionettes, Wicked Dolls and Stitched and that was it. The Effigies were designed to give him some more variety. They also do another job which is to act as a totem replacement when your planning to Avatar. Turning into an Avatar removes all your totems, the Effigies allow you to have another option.

Crooligan, why special forces?

I can see why they'd like to flesh out Seamus options more but the dead doxy seems very similar to the belle, do we really need both?

Both these are there to fill out Molly's options. As they are SF[Horrors] and Belles she can take them.

Lazarus- Holy cr@p! Auto fire on a weapon with blasts? Yikes. And why is patchwork armor better than most other armors? Pretty nasty.

It is and it isn't. It's better than normal Armor, but it stops him Assimilating Armor off other models and using it to boost his Armor value. So it really is a mixed blessing.

[011121]

And what's the issue with Soulless? they don't drop corpse counters and don't take terrifying tests.. They don't seem that over the top compared to other types of non-living.

Soulless don't drop corpses, don't take terrifying tests, aren't affected by any of the huge number of abilities that target living only, aren't affected by any of the significant number of abilities that affect constructs, and aren't affected by the reasonably large number of abilities that affect undead only (or living and undead).

And the down side is... wait there isn't any downside. They don't seem to pay any SS cost for soulless and there are no anti-soulless abilities (or at least there weren't until the exorcist and his abilities are anti undead as well).

You can say that soulless won't gain the benefits of buffs that only affect living or undead but since you plan your force you can choose whether or not to buy models that have such buffs, so it's really not much of any drawback.

Soulless and Nightmare are just uber.

[fritz the cat]

I think alot of your beefs with the models in particular will subside in time. Alot of models seem to transition from the initial reactions of "UNPLAYABLE" to "would only take IF..." to settling into their position of "has value in XYZ, unneccessary in ABC"

[Wolfgar]

I think there is supposed to be a certain amount of inner tension in the factions. First of all, it's dramatically interesting. Second of all, it makes sense that if none of the can present a truly united front none can dominate-that's why this is a skirmish game and not a war game. Finally I think it allows adequate reasoning if you want to match up against an opponent in the same faction, which I don't think is currently verboten or anything.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Minor Correction Ratty, Molly both had, as well as currently has the fewest special forces to use. and at the time of release of book 2 Molly could take:

Rotten Belles, Sybelle, and the Rogue Necromancy.

Collodi had Marionettes, Wicked Dolls, and Stitched together.

Sorry but just had to correct that, I'm sure more Horrors that combo better than Crooligans are in the works for book 4.

[Omenbringer]

Crooligan, why special forces?

Thematically, Molly is the only resurrectionist leader that doesn't just use them for parts. Molly is a reluctant undead leader and still has her compasion (and it would appear her sanity).

I can see why they'd like to flesh out Seamus options more but the dead doxy seems very similar to the belle, do we really need both?

Dead Doxy's are not at all like the Rotten Belles in play. Rotten Belles are mainly there to Lure models closer to the big damage dealers so they can cut them up. Doxy's on the other hand are meant to move up field and fix a model in place (they are a great Tarpit model, especially when you start adding some more buffs like Terrifying from Avatar Seamus and/or Necrotic Spray from Molly).

Ten thunder brothers- Love these guys. I really hope they upgrade Misaki to at least a henchman. I'd really like to have an all three kingdoms force. Maybe I'll get the viks and paint them up to be asian.

I believe that the next book is going to address both of these things (call it a strong hunch).

[Wolfgar]

Man, I need book 3. Too bad I have to spend all this meshuga money on painting stuff first. :mad:

[Ratty]

Minor Correction Ratty, Molly both had, as well as currently has the fewest special forces to use. and at the time of release of book 2 Molly could take:

Rotten Belles, Sybelle, and the Rogue Necromancy.

Collodi had Marionettes, Wicked Dolls, and Stitched together.

Technically your correction is incorrect. Collodi can't take totems where Molly can. So at the end of Book 2 she had I believe 4 totems she could take on top of the Rotten Belles, Sybelle, and the Rogue Necromancy.

[011121]

I think there is supposed to be a certain amount of inner tension in the factions. First of all, it's dramatically interesting. Second of all, it makes sense that if none of the can present a truly united front none can dominate-that's why this is a skirmish game and not a war game. Finally I think it allows adequate reasoning if you want to match up against an opponent in the same faction, which I don't think is currently verboten or anything.

I agree with the idea of the factions having inner tension and a certain amount of cross purposes. For instance the Zoraida-Lilith-Pandora relationship has a good amount of tension and distrust in it.

But I think there's a big difference between "we are at times at cross purposes" and "I fear for my life to approach my supposed allies." The dreamer and tina and sonia are all more in the latter category with regards to their own faction.

[Sandwich]

Also, I want to come in the defense of the writing prose.

You're absolutely right, it's pretty amateur, but I think it adds character to the book.

It's a person sitting down and doing this because they love it.

They're not the best writer but they're doing it nonetheless.

I really like that.

Not to mention the artistic license they have when developing characters.

It's one of the few things I can't complain about.

[Justin]

Really?

The prose?

I have no complaints about the writing itself. I mean, sure, fluff and mechanics don't match up perfectly, but whatever. I don't really see any problems with the skill level of the writing though.

Nerd has a whole question/answer thread about the fluff. May want to ask some of this stuff there.

[Wolfgar]

The prose has it's less than stellar moments. However the characters are strong and stuff actually seems to happen, which is a positive.

[rancor709]

Cheers for sharing your opinion on book 2 and 3. Malifaux style isn't for everyone and that includes writing style. Personally huge fan of the way they present malifaux, reminds me of western novels and old western tv shows and movies. Would not mind an homage to John Wayne in a character. I understand the logic and mechanical reason for special forces restriction and for existence. Wyrd does a strong job balancing the ingame interactions that are op and special forces allows more design avenues as well as story avenues.

As far as souless and nightmare its more examples of trying to make morale a less impactful. As a resser player primarily the living nonliving restriction on abilities and spells. It provides you with about half a card sometimes you can't use on nightmare and souless. Makes for some interesting postions.

As for the model breakdown. I find eventually you'll find everything has a speciifc use. And you'll find different units will fill different roles. But typically the more you play and therorize on units you'll drill down there place in the game. And as soon as something else is released units usefulness need to be reevaluated. Thematic forces and options are great and are something malifaux does very well. Making fluffy choices with actual teeth.

[Stitched]

Book 3 was very much a letdown. Almost as if malifaux has become stale. Hopefully book 4 will turn it around but by book 4 I may not even play anymore. Its dropping a lot of interest and the hype seems to have died off which is a shame.

[letsallchant]

in my opinion the book are getting better. but then again i refer to them as 'stories' and not 'prose', perhaps i should put on a cardigan and slacks and read them again

[Kadeton]

I liked the writing in Book 3, but I haven't had a chance to play with any of the new stuff from it. I really would have liked to see about twice as many minions for each faction in it, personally. Book 2 had a huge amount of new stuff in comparison.

[Wolfgar]

I'd imagine just getting the Avatars right was a lot of work.

[Orboros]

I'd imagine just getting the Avatars right was a lot of work.

Exactly, you can't expect wyrd to pack the same amount of minions as in book 2 and all the Avatars in one single book.