Trapper - Anti-tech and Anti-anti-tech

[Sandwich]

i dont see how being 12" and getting 3" moves after shots makes for good objective grabbing, either way its going to take you atleast 2 turns to get there. They hose armies that rely on blasts, but even with my belle centric force and them having armor, they're not exactly the most durable of models. They're an effective model, but spamming them as a list is effectively crap for everything but 1 or 2 strategies.

Malifaux seems rather resilient to gimmicks and "tech lists" ive found. The fact that you make your list after knowing the enemies faction, seen the table, objectives makes trixy list building kinda moot as you can customize your force every game.

Yeah, I completely agree.

16" range is cool beans, but 3" pushes isn't going to get you very far.

Oh, and they only cuddle blasts that generate Dg.

And the only really blast-centric master I can think of is Pandora, and none of her blasts generate Dg directly, so she still wrecks VS pretty hard.

And Belles are a really powerful counter to the Trappers because of (1)Lure and they're expendable, so putting her in a line of fire to Focus (1)Lure a trapper off the roof of a skyscraper is total okay.

Edited December 1, 2011 by Sandwich

[GAH]

My last game vs. Seamus (I was using the Victorias), Belles lured my Trapper out of position so I couldn't destroy my second evidence marker. Then Seamus shot him in the face next turn.

[fritz the cat]

Yeah, I completely agree.

16" range is cool beans, but 3" pushes isn't going to get you very far.

Oh, and they only cuddle blasts that generate Dg.

And the only really blast-centric master I can think of is Pandora, and none of her blasts generate Dg directly, so she still wrecks VS pretty hard.

And Belles are a really powerful counter to the Trappers because of (1)Lure and they're expendable, so putting her in a line of fire to Focus (1)Lure a trapper off the roof of a skyscraper is total okay.

well they totally hose rasputina as alot of her damage is blasts, and they arent too kind to sonnia either. Nicodem also cant damage them (but his blast has more utility). But that can be said for the whole freikorps special forces.

And yeah, cheap resilient, or cheap fast, or cheap dodgy models hose trappers hardcore. their close combat potential is mediocre unless you get triggers. I think nothing of throwing a belle at them (which is possibly the best model to throw at them. 4 points, hard to wound, doesnt get slowed by terrain, can lure things around, either them out of terrain, things to them) And every crew has something you can throw at them, tie one up in combat and youve effectively nuetered the model.

[Pox]

Still maintain Collodi and a bunch of dolls would be all over a trapper list like gravy - poisoned, burning gravy.

Since Collodi can go 32" and get into combat on turn 1 and then summon all his wicked dolls straight over it would be bye bye trappers quite quickly.

[Kael Hate]

Just wondering if you considered this too much or just enough terrain in relation to the fair requirement of Shooties vs Meleers? I like this level of stuff, reminds me of Mordheim and Necromunda. The Terrain Flips were slums and there is a Hanging tree in the dead center with a Treasure to steal. We used the same terrain with low-level mods for a sewer network (Like in Hammelins Dark Treasures Muahhahahah). I lost Deployment choice both games but won both. Yes I lost trappers to Blindly obeying Hammelin and jumping to a 10wound doom lol.

Opinion among the Malifaux guys is that I choose too much terrain. Gimme Opinions plz, especially when relating to shooty groups like the Trapper Spam.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

My humble opinion is not enough terrain. It is not a matter that you have lots of building itd is the lack of small terrain pieces like a fountain or fencing or trees. I would say there is enough buildings but too many levels.

Really I have played with 40k terrain and it is usually crap because of how tall it is and how many levels. A level should be 4" every where that would take 8" to traverse. Also it lacks thematics which I thrive on for this game. Mass terrain should probably cap at 3" with a few things taller.

Side note the terrain is really nice looking.

Fun thread so far.

[Omenbringer]

Just wondering if you considered this too much or just enough terrain in relation to the fair requirement of Shooties vs Meleers? I like this level of stuff, reminds me of Mordheim and Necromunda. The Terrain Flips were slums and there is a Hanging tree in the dead center with a Treasure to steal. We used the same terrain with low-level mods for a sewer network (Like in Hammelins Dark Treasures Muahhahahah). I lost Deployment choice both games but won both. Yes I lost trappers to Blindly obeying Hammelin and jumping to a 10wound doom lol.

Opinion among the Malifaux guys is that I choose too much terrain. Gimme Opinions plz, especially when relating to shooty groups like the Trapper Spam.

I would say that is a fair amount though I would agree some more "micro terrain" would be good. Small rubble piles and such would fit good there.

I would consider that a very good board to mitigate the better standoff range of the Trappers. There is plenty of LOS blocking terrain and hard cover opportunities for melee crews to take advantage of while advancing up board. And with the multiple levels it shouldn't be that difficult to confine the trappers to a few perches.

Yeah, I completely agree.

16" range is cool beans, but 3" pushes isn't going to get you very far.

Oh, and they only cuddle blasts that generate Dg.

And the only really blast-centric master I can think of is Pandora, and none of her blasts generate Dg directly, so she still wrecks VS pretty hard.

And Belles are a really powerful counter to the Trappers because of (1)Lure and they're expendable, so putting her in a line of fire to Focus (1)Lure a trapper off the roof of a skyscraper is total okay.

It is up to 6" of free movement in addition to the 2 successful attacks (this is better then their Walk).

Pandora is the only crew you can think of that is blast centric?

Belles aren't as easily replaced as this (Seamus needs a 10 a corpse counter within 6" and it is his 0 action for the turn, Nicodem needs a 9 and a corpse counter within 6", Mcmourning can't do it, neither can Kirai, Molly has the best chance with an 8 however it is her 0 action and requires 2 Corpse counters that she has to be carrying).

Also the Belles aren't a sure fire counter to the trappers, they are only flipping +1 over the Trappers WP resist (-3 if VonSchill throws up his Hard Ass aura) on Lure even with Seductive so it is hardly guaranteed (the only "Sniper" model that really has to worry about going over the edge with any regularity is Hans). Additionally your opponent is going to be placing his Trappers after you have placed your belles (thanks to From the Shadows), so can mitigate there usefullness a bit if they cluster or pick them apart if you spread them out (and with 12 shots a turn even Hard to Wound wont protect you).

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

I would say that is a fair amount though I would agree some more "micro terrain" would be good. Small rubble piles and such would fit good there.

I would consider that a very good board to mitigate the better standoff range of the Trappers. There is plenty of LOS blocking terrain and hard cover opportunities for melee crews to take advantage of while advancing up board. And with the multiple levels it shouldn't be that difficult to confine the trappers to a few perches.

It is up to 6" of free movement in addition to the 2 successful attacks (this is better then their Walk).

Pandora is the only crew you can think of that is blast centric?

he means blast reliant without dmg so it is a blast marker that can't be ignored by the armor.

Belles aren't as easily replaced as this (Seamus needs a 10 a corpse counter within 6" and it is his 0 action for the turn, Nicodem needs a 9 and a corpse counter within 6", Mcmourning can't do it, neither can Kirai, Molly has the best chance with an 8 however it is her 0 action and requires 2 Corpse counters that she has to be carrying).

Also the Belles aren't a sure fire counter to the trappers, they are only flipping +1 over the Trappers WP resist (-3 if VonSchill throws up his Hard Ass aura) on Lure even with Seductive so it is hardly guaranteed (the only "Sniper" model that really has to worry about going over the edge with any regularity is Hans). Additionally your opponent is going to be placing his Trappers after you have placed your belles (thanks to From the Shadows), so can mitigate there usefullness a bit if they cluster or pick them apart if you spread them out (and with 12 shots a turn even Hard to Wound wont protect you).

hard add only bumps for morale duels won't help against lure common misconception. As to sandwich's point trappers are graverobbers and can take the counters so belle is not easily replaced. Also von schill has last rites. Undead are going to struggle a little a bit against von schill. This list won't have an outright advantage though. Once von schill is dead it would be an easy win for a resser crew.

[Omenbringer]

Good catch I did overlook Hard Ass, however they are still only up by 1 because of Stubborn.

I still think that the Friekorps have a better then average chance against Pandora's crew (their Average Wp is 8, 2 above her CA, 1 above her WP and the Box Opens doesn't remove Stuborn).

And remember that the trappers also have Jerky Time for those corpse counters that'll be littering the field (I dont think they are going to be that helpless with out VonSchill, especially once they have killed the Master thats bringing them back).

Edited December 3, 2011 by Omenbringer

[fritz the cat]

Good catch I did overlook Hard Ass, however they are still only up by 1 because of Stubborn.

I still think that the Friekorps have a better then average chance against Pandora's crew (their Average Wp is 8, 2 above her CA, 1 above her WP and the Box Opens doesn't remove Stuborn).

And remember that the trappers also have Jerky Time for those corpse counters that'll be littering the field (I dont think they are going to be that helpless with out VonSchill, especially once they have killed the Master thats bringing them back).

maybe its just me, but I think the belles survivability is being overlooked. 1vs1 i havent had a trapper kill a belle in 1 turn. if that means I can get more stuff in the second turn to finish him off, I can then send the belle off to another one.

And this is only in regards to a trapper heavy list. If im fighting a game and its 1-2 trappers out there, as a resser im willing to weather the storm knowing that this model is going to be plinking, and likely avoiding combat (ie, I go where I want, and he reacts to me by avoiding me)

If youre using your trappers moving aggressively forward, thats not where their good, so i'll just mop them up with any number of different cc options.

I still dont think trappers are a good core to a force, but very effective at harrassing bigger models, or picking off small weak important models like totems

[Omenbringer]

maybe its just me, but I think the belles survivability is being overlooked. 1vs1 i havent had a trapper kill a belle in 1 turn. if that means I can get more stuff in the second turn to finish him off, I can then send the belle off to another one.

Hardly under estimating their survivability (Seamus is one of my favorite crews after my first love). The problem is this list isn't about 1 on 1 or even 2 on 1, its going to be 6 on 1 (weak damage from 12 attacks kills anything in one round). This is before you add VonSchill into the mix with his attacks (with a range of 12 that ignore Hard to Wound and get an extra to the Damage flip against undead along with the potential to trigger Critical Strike) and Buffs (Leader allowing them to "Alpha Strike" and Willing to Die letting them get in that one last strike before death).

Think of this as a really good Gremlin Gunline (that actually hits without Focusing and doesn't damage friendly models when you miss)

And this is only in regards to a trapper heavy list. If im fighting a game and its 1-2 trappers out there, as a resser im willing to weather the storm knowing that this model is going to be plinking, and likely avoiding combat (ie, I go where I want, and he reacts to me by avoiding me)

If youre using your trappers moving aggressively forward, thats not where their good, so i'll just mop them up with any number of different cc options.

I still dont think trappers are a good core to a force, but very effective at harrassing bigger models, or picking off small weak important models like totems

Their Close Combat isn't that bad either (decent CB & damage track and access to the Brutal Trigger to offset things like Hard to Wound) and their Df is close enough to average CB (among the Ressers) to mean that attacks duels are going to be contested well. Additionally their armor provides definate Wd reduction (unless you have something that ignores it like Bete Noir or Sybelle and she is going to struggle with Crave Punishment against them) where as Hard to Wound only provides potential reduction.

Keep in mind I dont consider this auto-win but do consider it decently competitive.

Edited December 3, 2011 by Omenbringer

[Q'iq'el]

Opinion among the Malifaux guys is that I choose too much terrain. Gimme Opinions plz, especially when relating to shooty groups like the Trapper Spam.

The problem is not with the amount, clearly, but with the kind of terrain you use.

I'd say you have more on the table than you need for a fair Malifaux game. In fact you have so much of it, you may be impeding the movement of many melee crews.

But at the same time it is the 40K terrain. 40K terrain is designed so that big units can easily get cover save, but you almost never get situations where unit is out of LoS.

Malifaux is the exact opposite of it. Cover is hard to claim - you need to either enter the obscuring terrain (which is also likely to slow your miniature down), or you need to stay within 1" of covering feature - which means intentional effort.

Malifaux needs tall walls (ht2 and ht3), fences (ht1), shrubs and trees - some with trunks thick enough to hide a mini behind (figuratively speaking - all you have to worry about is the tree's base size - make it big enough and models will hide behind it) and, most importantly, houses. Solid structures you cannot see through.

Secondly, your terrain has many platforms - some on very high level. No wonder you consider sniping weapons very powerful. The most "vertical" table I ever designed had 2x ht2 platforms, 1x ht2 shooting window (open to a central street, but you couldn't see anything outside that lane due to walls) and 1x ht4 shooting balcony - the balcony was giving a decent shooting solution, but was very hard to get to (climbable wall so it'd take 2 turns for most models to even establish themselves there) and there were houses and roofed galleries in the area, so the opponent could still hide inside to stay out of LoS.

TLDR version - you need lots of terrain that blocks LoS completely, you need only a bit of cover and don't build above ht3~ht4 (and even then tall structures should be exception).

The last is no problem for flying crews, but is a bit unfair for all the slower walking crews out there.

Edited December 3, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[fritz the cat]

Hardly under estimating their survivability (Seamus is one of my favorite crews after my first love). The problem is this list isn't about 1 on 1 or even 2 on 1, its going to be 6 on 1 (weak damage from 12 attacks kills anything in one round). This is before you add VonSchill into the mix with his attacks (with a range of 12 that ignore Hard to Wound and get an extra to the Damage flip against undead along with the potential to trigger Critical Strike) and Buffs (Leader allowing them to "Alpha Strike" and Willing to Die letting them get in that one last strike before death).

if youre sending everything in your army focus firing 1 target (provided i havent set my list to rely on 1 model) there should be a saturation of targets enough that most crews can absorb those deaths.

meanwhile the rest of their force is able to go unmolested to wherever they want to be.

granted that von schill is an absolute beast, but theres no avoiding that. the trappers themselves are a middling concern.

[Omenbringer]

I'd say you have more on the table than you need for a fair Malifaux game. In fact you have so much of it' date=' you may be impeding the movement of many melee crews.[/quote']

There are plenty of openings in those buildings and very little severe terrain, movement shouldn't be an issue at all.

Obtaining a Hard cover save on that board would be very easy.

Those buildings are going to block LOS very well and the trappers have Hunter so obscuring terrain is actually somewhat good for them (though they wont be able to see beyond it they can see you in it before you see them out of it).

Somewhat counterintuitive but the high platforms are actually a hindrance to long range weapons in this instance (LOS is going to be difficult to obtain from level to level and almost always going to provide a Hard cover save for the target). Also the high platforms chanelize and isolate the Trappers from the rest of the field (allowing melee crews to manuever around their sectors of fire). This by the way is why snipers fire down streets when employed in urban environments and depend upon other units to secure their flanks and rear from the enemy.

Very true, flying crews and Kirai's crew are going to absolutely love that board. I wouldn't dismiss the slower walking crews though (unless of course you place the objective markers on the higher floors).

Have you faced a Gremlin Gunline or Trapper Spam yet? This is how they work. They focus on your key models then deal with your other now unsupported weaker stuff. Almost every list in this game relies on key models to start the combinations that lead to victory. In a worst case sceneraio they have to waste an entire turn killing that one key model, most times they are going to be killing 1-2 or even 3 a turn (hell they can put most of the masters in the game in the hurt locker and on the defensive turn one even with a handful of soulstones and damage prevention flips). Once the key models are gone they can run around and accomplish those objectives unmolested and mop up the rest of your crew at their leisure.

Edited December 3, 2011 by Omenbringer

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

maybe its just me, but I think the belles survivability is being overlooked. 1vs1 i havent had a trapper kill a belle in 1 turn. if that means I can get more stuff in the second turn to finish him off, I can then send the belle off to another one.

Not at all, but a trapper and von schill army can easily threaten a belle. This army can drop two a turn pretty consistently and you don't want to have a negative lost as a resser. As a nico player I wouldn't feel threaten too, much by seamus I would. McMourning mixed bag, but probably wouldn't worry too much. A spam list could easily counter this. Let's do all dog list against this list and bam I'm going to auto win. Or span necropunks, bam auto win period.

Belle's are good but they are not going to win against this list, probably one of my last picks. I would definitely look more at crooked men and other spam lists, numbers will blow this crew out of the water.

If youre using your trappers moving aggressively forward, thats not where their good, so i'll just mop them up with any number of different cc options.

No where did Kael Hate suggest he would push the line forward, I don't think he is that bad of a player to do something like that. Few strategies require you need to go past the middle line.

The problem is not with the amount, clearly, but with the kind of terrain you use.

agreed.

I'd say you have more on the table than you need for a fair Malifaux game. In fact you have so much of it, you may be impeding the movement of many melee crews.

a little but not that much.

But at the same time it is the 40K terrain. 40K terrain is designed so that big units can easily get cover save, but you almost never get situations where unit is out of LoS.

not really that big of a problem for malifaux.

Malifaux is the exact opposite of it. Cover is hard to claim - you need to either enter the obscuring terrain (which is also likely to slow your miniature down), or you need to stay within 1" of covering feature - which means intentional effort.

Malifaux is exact opposite, really? I'm confused by this. This game's terrain design can range to what you described to. Cover shouldn't be all that hard to claim. It's suggestion implies that cover should be easy to claim.

Malifaux needs tall walls (ht2 and ht3), fences (ht1), shrubs and trees - some with trunks thick enough to hide a mini behind (figuratively speaking - all you have to worry about is the tree's base size - make it big enough and models will hide behind it) and, most importantly, houses. Solid structures you cannot see through.

totally agreed and my main point previously.

Secondly, your terrain has many platforms - some on very high level. No wonder you consider sniping weapons very powerful. The most "vertical" table I ever designed had 2x ht2 platforms, 1x ht2 shooting window (open to a central street, but you couldn't see anything outside that lane due to walls) and 1x ht4 shooting balcony - the balcony was giving a decent shooting solution, but was very hard to get to (climbable wall so it'd take 2 turns for most models to even establish themselves there) and there were houses and roofed galleries in the area, so the opponent could still hide inside to stay out of LoS.

TLDR version - you need lots of terrain that blocks LoS completely, you need only a bit of cover and don't build above ht3~ht4 (and even then tall structures should be exception).

The last is no problem for flying crews, but is a bit unfair for all the slower walking crews out there.

[Omenbringer]

Or span necropunks, bam auto win period.

You do realize those trappers can drop those construct Necropunks in only two hits from either of their weapons right (one moderate damage & 1 weak damage)? Also the maximum engagment range (not really threat range since they wont be able to attack if moving this range) from a Necropunk is the same as the Clockwork Rifle (Leap, followed by 2 Walks and 1 ).

Additionally Hard to Kill is the only thing preventing one shot severe damage kills from either the Skinning Knife or the clockwork rifles (which recieves a flip to the damage without having to overcome a Hard to Wound ability since they dont have it). Would bet on 3-4 dead Necropunks per turn (with most being killed after only 1 Necropunk has had the opprotunity to activate thanks to VonSchills Leader allowing the Alpha Strike).

McMourning is going to strugle to replace anything other then a Flesh Construct or Canine Remains (and of course once he is gone the spam quickly crumbles). Nico probably has the best chance with a spam list because of his ability to; one bring anything back that he needs and two his ability to raise Mindless Zombies easily (at least until the Trappers start using Jerky Time to heal and VonSchill uses Last Rites to get rid of those walking corpse counters anyway).

[fritz the cat]

No where did Kael Hate suggest he would push the line forward, I don't think he is that bad of a player to do something like that. Few strategies require you need to go past the middle line.

Your range is effectively half the board. once I hit center mark, if you want to stay at the periphery im now forcing you to go where I want you too.

im assuming this list is only really with contain power/slaughter, as thats where it'd be the most effective.

If im playing seamus, I very often go bodyguard. If its contain power, im pushing your army back with mine, and then im hiding seamus in the back, thats -4vp for you and +2 for me. you now have to come to me to get anything.

lots of schemes can require you to cross the center line aswell.

Im not saying it cant work, im just saying its a one trick pony. And that trick is dependant on your foe.

And i still dont see how this is better than the gremlin gunline which ive seen be competitive in alot more of the strategies

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

I was ready for this naysaying. Why Necro Punks, by Mr. Bigglesworth:

Def same as cb. Not going to get that often. Plus, it will be easy to pull straight flips but a weak first hit means you would have to hit me again upwards of 3 hits to kill.

Def stance and leap with one walk will put me in range of your trappers if you didn't get a reposition trigger off. Plus do this for your first few activations while you burn out the oppenent then activate nico for bolster, decay heal. I could probably let you get 4 activations, and lose worst case 2 models than activate Nico and replenish the hurt and summon more back.

5-3 ratio. Not bad number game there. Dogs are better picks.

Best def possible against hunter outside of cloud like effects is HT 1. If you can't see me you can't hit me.

Arachnid, I'm getting there fast.

Leap, not reliable at all, but leap with flurry, a lot more damage.

Throw this list in with Nico and you are healing maximizing hard to kill.

Slow to die, another great ability. If not in range fall back for nico to maximize placement of corpse counter.

Also I have some of the best objective grabbers for ressers coming at you. Throw in bolster and you are now at a disadvantage on your duels.

I should have meant to say spam with Nico bam auto win against op list.

Also Nico's paralyze spell is a big threat for von schill and will make him hesitate. Though I trade this for bolster since I need bolster early for it to benefit, but with fog, von schill is cuddled, if he is going for Nico.

My favorite advantage. I have more models, so I get to out activate.

Last correction leader only allows you pick one other trapper to activate after schill so that isn't really that big of a threat.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

Your range is effectively half the board. once I hit center mark, if you want to stay at the periphery im now forcing you to go where I want you too.

im assuming this list is only really with contain power/slaughter, as thats where it'd be the most effective.

If im playing seamus, I very often go bodyguard. If its contain power, im pushing your army back with mine, and then im hiding seamus in the back, thats -4vp for you and +2 for me. you now have to come to me to get anything.

lots of schemes can require you to cross the center line aswell.

Im not saying it cant work, im just saying its a one trick pony. And that trick is dependant on your foe.

And i still dont see how this is better than the gremlin gunline which ive seen be competitive in alot more of the strategies

I agree with your assessment, but reposition gives you enough tactical option to be able to slow your opponents advance and push in at angles to either spread you out, or have my models fall back. Many crews can't spread out effectively, but this one has no trouble doing so.

Agreed contain power versus seamus, only vonschill can make the difference necessary but it is not likely to be enough.

[fritz the cat]

McMourning is going to strugle to replace anything other then a Flesh Construct or Canine Remains (and of course once he is gone the spam quickly crumbles). Nico probably has the best chance with a spam list because of his ability to; one bring anything back that he needs and two his ability to raise Mindless Zombies easily (at least until the Trappers start using Jerky Time to heal and VonSchill uses Last Rites to get rid of those walking corpse counters anyway).

i'd actually say mcmourning has the least to worry about. yeah... you'll hit him... but hard to wound, lots of wounds, TONS of stones to boost defense, prevention flips.. and hes surprisingly fast with 5" walk and a 0 that allows you to make a 6" attack followed by a push. He ignores armor. Any damage he inflicts heals him... Mcmourning is a beefcake in an apron

[Omenbringer]

Your range is effectively half the board. once I hit center mark, if you want to stay at the periphery im now forcing you to go where I want you too.

They are putting the preasure on you turn one thanks to From the Shadows Deployment and dictating your actions.

im assuming this list is only really with contain power/slaughter, as thats where it'd be the most effective.

Powerful in any objective based scenario where you have to move models to an objective (Destroying the Supply Wagon on turn 1, Overwatching your treasure Counter and killing any near it or who pick it up, killing models that are trying to arm or disarm dynamite counters, Grudge, Assasinate, Kill Protege, etc)

If im playing seamus, I very often go bodyguard. If its contain power, im pushing your army back with mine, and then im hiding seamus in the back, thats -4vp for you and +2 for me. you now have to come to me to get anything.

Easy points for me, turn 1 I'm probably killing Seamus (or depriving you of a lot of Soulstones preventing damage) with 12 attacks (before you do anything if I flip initiative). I can then tear apart the rest of your crew which now has no way of really coming back unless you took Molly (of course she'd be next on the list and wouldn't benefit from Pitiful since the entire crew is Ruthless).

lots of schemes can require you to cross the center line aswell.

Can easily do this on turn 1 (during deployment) or at my leasure in later turns after I have decimated everything that is a threat on your side of the board.

Im not saying it cant work, im just saying its a one trick pony. And that trick is dependant on your foe.

And i still dont see how this is better than the gremlin gunline which ive seen be competitive in alot more of the strategies

It is not dependant on your foe at all really, you get to place virtually all of your models after your opponent has committed to a location (providing 1st turn strikes). The advantage of this 1 trick pony is that you dont have to worry about difficult combinations and interactions just focus on what you are good at.

Lastly If you'd ever run a gremlin gunline you'd know that this is way better in about 1 round of concentrated fire (trust me I have played Gremlins for a very long time).

[fritz the cat]

whats this alpha strike you speak of? you get von shill + 1 freikman. 1...

oh, and 12 shots that have minimum damage 1 on their damage track... yeah. thats not going to kill seamus even if they did all get to go at once. If i have to burn a couple stones on preventing your large damage flips thats fine. Even if this alpha strike did exist, next activation i go with seamus, sure, ill take the activation killing my own model beefing him up to full health likely. And now I have my entire army to go with. Go ahead 2nd turn, try and kill seamus again... it still wont work.. and im even closer now.

edit, as a side note. My friend play tested this list vs me. we did a handful of games each vs mcmourning and seamus. All slaughter and contain power. So my observances are based on the gameplay of these games. It may look good on paper... but its not really much more effective than a standard freik/vik crew really as its one dimensional

Edited December 3, 2011 by fritz the cat

[Omenbringer]

Def same as cb. Not going to get that often. Plus, it will be easy to pull straight flips but a weak first hit means you would have to hit me again upwards of 3 hits to kill.

They can make 12 attacks a turn and on average are dropping low cost res models in 2 (unless they have Hard to Kill).

Def stance and leap with one walk will put me in range of your trappers if you didn't get a reposition trigger off.

Check your math, Def stance has to be the first action and gives a -2 to Wk and Cg (so Wk2, Cg 5), they can cover 10" for an 11" threat range if they charge (and less if they leap and double walk).

5-3 ratio. Not bad number game there. Dogs are better picks.

You are not killing that many trappers in 1 turn with Necropunks since they wont be able to use Flurry if they aren't within 1 (or 6" if they use Leap first) and dont put out that great of damage anyway (most likely 1 on anything but severe damage)

Best def possible against hunter outside of cloud like effects is HT 1. If you can't see me you can't hit me.

True until you get into melee wiht them where they are up 1 and can benefit from another trigger (increasing their chances of pulling one).

Arachnid, I'm getting there fast.

Leap, not reliable at all, but leap with flurry, a lot more damage.

Short threat range unless you aren't going Defensive (and even then your threat range is less then half of mine if you want to use Flurry)

Throw this list in with Nico and you are healing maximizing hard to kill.

Slow to die, another great ability. If not in range fall back for nico to maximize placement of corpse counter.

He cant heal what is dead, only raise Zombies which VonSchill easily dispatches with Last Rites.

Slow to Die isn't an issue since you are probably out of retaliation range anyway.

Also I have some of the best objective grabbers for ressers coming at you. Throw in bolster and you are now at a disadvantage on your duels.

Those fast objective grabbers die to 2 maybe 3 shots from the rifles. Bolster undead may help but your models need to stay within 10" of Nico and have threat range to the trappers (not always easy to manage).

I should have meant to say spam with Nico bam auto win against op list.

Hardly auto-win it is a resource war at that point and once VonSchill starts removing those corpse counters, one which Nico will likely lose.

Also Nico's paralyze spell is a big threat for von schill and will make him hesitate. Though I trade this for bolster since I need bolster early for it to benefit, but with fog, von schill is cuddled, if he is going for Nico.

You mean Rigor Mortis, the spell that has a range of 10 and requires Nico to flip a 10 or higher and VonSchill to flip the same to beat the WP resist (even chance either way even with SoulStones and I would give the advantage to Vonschill who is able to cheat and soulstone after the target number is set by Nico who wont ba able to change it again).

My favorite advantage. I have more models, so I get to out activate.

Vonschill's crew has 6 models (and once the rounds start flying that out activation is going to be mindless zombies at the end of the turn).

Last correction leader only allows you pick one other trapper to activate after schill so that isn't really that big of a threat.

True, apologies, though the pair can still generate 4 strikes at 16 (with a pretty decent damage spread and Vonschill doesnt care about Hard to Wound at all).

[Omenbringer]

oh, and 12 shots that have minimum damage 1 on their damage track... yeah. thats not going to kill seamus even if they did all get to go at once. If i have to burn a couple stones on preventing your large damage flips thats fine. Even if this alpha strike did exist, next activation i go with seamus, sure, ill take the activation killing my own model beefing him up to full health likely. And now I have my entire army to go with. Go ahead 2nd turn, try and kill seamus again... it still wont work.. and im even closer now.

Sea above for Alpha Strike (late night skimming).

However Seamus isn't standing to 2 turns of concentrated fire no matter how many Stones he has (hell I'd rather you burn those stones preventing damage anyway, less to worry about if you do get close).

edit, as a side note. My friend play tested this list vs me. we did a handful of games each vs mcmourning and seamus. All slaughter and contain power. So my observances are based on the gameplay of these games. It may look good on paper... but its not really much more effective than a standard freik/vik crew really as its one dimensional

I have playtested this as well against several crews and with several different Strategies and schemes for a long time, it works (regardless if it is one dimensional). I am not claiming it is auto-win by any means (there are much nastier things out there) but it is competitive.

At any rate as with most of these "this model/crew is awesome" threads we have hit the point where each side is dug in and neither will budge (probably a while ago) so off to bed...

[fritz the cat]

Sea above for Alpha Strike (late night skimming).

However Seamus isn't standing to 2 turns of concentrated fire no matter how many Stones he has (hell I'd rather you burn those stones preventing damage anyway, less to worry about if you do get close).

12 shots, not every one will hit by odds alone not including cheating. 2-3 negative flips each one. even without healing from spells and abilities, maybe using a couple stones on on prevents. The killer here of course is the rogue red joker. Or a really lucky severe on schills gun (he doesnt ignore seamus H2W as hes not undead)

But seamus aside. You are right, the trenches have been dug.