Getting the Most Out of Crooligans

[Q'iq'el]

I was thinknig tho, for crews that need corpses and the point of mobile units that can run up around the table, Id say the value of their corpses is lessened as the likelyhood of them staying in the masters bubble of influence isnt there. And if youre say... using for example canine remains to run out and collect those tokens... you may aswell just take the dogs to do the deed as is.

In closing. Night terrors are the bomb

Night terrors are something you send for objectives and forget about. Dogs too will have trouble returning to the Master, especially that they are likely to die if attacked.

A Criooligan can teleport back into the bubble - perhaps even out of opponent's LoS.

Other than that, leaving corpse counters outside of the bubble (assuming things go wrong) is not that big of a problem for Nicodem.

[fritz the cat]

Night terrors are something you send for objectives and forget about. Dogs too will have trouble returning to the Master, especially that they are likely to die if attacked.

A Criooligan can teleport back into the bubble - perhaps even out of opponent's LoS.

Other than that, leaving corpse counters outside of the bubble (assuming things go wrong) is not that big of a problem for Nicodem.

thats argueably true. you can have dogs in spades though, for 3 crooligans you can get 6 dogs, and they can send each others corpses back to the master with a 0 action ready to be made into more things.

Just as a cost to effectiveness ratio, im still not sold on crooligans. their poking is just as inneffectual as any of the other choices for objective grabbing, and they're only situationally faster, and while their survivability is better, youre paying for it, you could get an extra model vs the trio.

And if you do kill a crooligan, the others get exponentially worse (night terrors have the same problem, necropunks dont really suffer from that as much)

[Q'iq'el]

Vultures do that better than Dogs though and if you take 6 or even 4 Dogs with Nicodem, you are very seriously hampered. There's a reason why Canine Remains summoner-type crews fail to perform up to standards.

IMO the reason why Vultures have bad rep is that people had to take Canines anyway (for lack of better objective grabbers/fast minions). Because people had Canines for that goal, they came up with summoning lists (so that they can offset the lack of stronger minions by killing Canines and reanimating them).

This entire approach is somewhat faulty from the start though - you are better off if you don't have to reanimate at all. You are better off if you bring some strong minions and use Nicodem's abilities to keep them alive and perhaps add to them as the game progresses. Vultures provide ton of utility and take care of counters in remote places. Molly and Necrotic Machine offer good value for their price and increase Counter availability.

Crooligans you'd take only when the scenario requires you to cut down on hitting power and grab some speed... which is all you need them for. They are not auto-include by any means, but once you need a model like that to complete your Strategy, you can either Hire them or summon them.

Or to put the entire argument the other way around, Canine Remains inevitably lock Nicodem down into sub-par summoner list. You have to hire them, you need to send them early, you have to reanimate quickly once they die.

Night Terrors are perhaps best of the three, but there's no flexibility as you have to hire them... and you have no ability to re-summon them in most (if not all) crews. They may be a smart choice if you know you'll try to grab objectives from turn 1, but what if you expect to go for them slowly, and then find yourself at trouble reaching them?

Crooligans are something you simply can use whenever you feel you may need them - whether it is hiring stage for the Strategy at hand or as a response to late game difficulties in claiming objectives. Even if you go Avatar with Nicodem, you can still keep the ability to summon them, as long as you bring Molly.

And frankly, for 9 points she is not a bad minion to have at all. I see her displacing Bête Noire from my Nicodem crew permanently and that hasn't happened even once since I got her model.

Edited November 26, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[fritz the cat]

Vultures do that better than Dogs though and if you take 6 or even 4 Dogs with Nicodem, you are very seriously hampered. There's a reason why Canine Remains summoner-type crews fail to perform up to standards.

IMO the reason why Vultures have bad rep is that people had to take Canines anyway (for lack of better objective grabbers/fast minions). Because people had Canines for that goal, they came up with summoning lists (so that they can offset the lack of stronger minions by killing Canines and reanimating them).

This entire approach is somewhat faulty from the start though - you are better off if you don't have to reanimate at all. You are better off if you bring some strong minions and use Nicodem's abilities to keep them alive and perhaps add to them as the game progresses. Vultures provide ton of utility and take care of counters in remote places. Molly and Necrotic Machine offer good value for their price and increase Counter availability.

Crooligans you'd take only when the scenario requires you to cut down on hitting power and grab some speed... which is all you need them for. They are not auto-include by any means, but once you need a model like that to complete your Strategy, you can either Hire them or summon them.

Or to put the entire argument the other way around, Canine Remains inevitably lock Nicodem down into sub-par summoner list. You have to hire them, you need to send them early, you have to reanimate quickly once they die.

Night Terrors are perhaps best of the three, but there's no flexibility as you have to hire them... and you have no ability to re-summon them in most (if not all) crews. They may be a smart choice if you know you'll try to grab objectives from turn 1, but what if you expect to go for them slowly, and then find yourself at trouble reaching them?

Crooligans are something you simply can use whenever you feel you may need them - whether it is hiring stage for the Strategy at hand or as a response to late game difficulties in claiming objectives. Even if you go Avatar with Nicodem, you can still keep the ability to summon them, as long as you bring Molly.

And frankly, for 9 points she is not a bad minion to have at all. I see her displacing Bête Noire from my Nicodem crew permanently and that hasn't happened even once since I got her model.

I wasnt argueing for canine dogs over crooligans in the sense of a summoning list. But more on the point that Ive seen people argue crooligans over night terrors for the bonus of corpse token dropping, which quite frankly doesnt really in my mind be that much of a bonus.

As to replacing late game, 12 points for 4 night terrors, 12 points for 3 crooligans... thats half your force in alot of games, if youre at the point of worrying about replenishing half your force something has gonne terribly wrong.

I just see the crooligan niche as being very small, and the more I think about it, it keeps getting smaller.

As to molly displacing bete, point cost aside they share no similarities in capabilities or duties... so really its less molly displacing bete, and more utility displacing killing power. WHich if anything is a choice based on strategy more than the value of the model itself within itself. (im really hating on molly lately, mind you its in regards to mcmourning and seamus not nico, but in my masters ive been terribly underwhelmed. And completely apathetic to her as a master)

[Q'iq'el]

One, the Corpse Counters do matter a lot. It's not about replenishing half of the crew at once, it's about bringing back single models you've lost or perhaps switching the crew profile should the need arise.

Necropunk: works for his SS cost, can be brought back or switched for something else if it dies. How good it its job depends on opponent's crew and terrain.

Night Terrors are awesome at doing their job regardless of terrain and opposition, but Nicodem isn't bringing them back or switching the crew's profile. It means you gain on ability to grab some objectives, but you loose on flexibility, which is Nicodem's big thing. Still, if you face a living/undead crew (not spirits) that drawback is mitigated somewhat.

Crooligans work just like any other undead minion - Nicodem picks them up when he needs the and can switch them to something else should the need arise. That's huge. They may not be a min/maxer's dream, but they are good enough to grab the objectives without negative influence on the performance of the entire crew.

Canine Remains: IMHO fail to perform up to their SS cost and then they have to get reanimated into something better, eating up Nicodem'sprecious actions. They are ok for Mcmourning of course, but that's another story.

Now as Bête Noire vs. Molly goes, it is a very valid comparison:

Bête Noire's range of abilities go from utility, through damage, to being a deterrent and something opponent has to remember about. Of all these tasks her utility (sure fire paralysis against living, ability to slow multiple models) is the best and hitting power situational. Usefulness of her other qualities depends somewhat on the skill of the opponent.

Molly, in Nicodem's crew, is remarkably similar but more flexible. She brings ability to paralyze the opponent by copying Nicodem's spell. She can also increase his healing output (both by copying Decay and using NM to turn living minions undead) . On the top of that she helps a bit with movement, summoning and Crorpse Counter generation. Her damage output can be decent, especially if she starts copying Acid Breath and such.

The deterrent is the only area she can't match very well, but I feel she more than makes up for it in other ways.

Edited November 26, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[fritz the cat]

note on molly: I said in regards to personal experience with my masters being seamus and mcmourning. Alot of the utility through spell stealing is lost on those 2 casters as in mcmournings case, his spells have short ranges and in seamus's list, he needs that extra killing potential. But yes, we have differing opinions It seems to be getting kinda back and forth with each of stating our opinions more vehemently.

edit: I feel silly as we're both arguing from different standpoints; you with nico, and me with seamus/mcmourning

[Q'iq'el]

I don't even see it as an argument. There simply are different sides to Crooligans themselves and while I describe who gets the most from them, you present the side for which they are not meeting up the requirements. IMHO that's normal for such specialized minions.

But first and foremost, they are Molly's "troops" - she's a Henchman after all and having her lead her own crew should be perfectly viable. And since she has to take Belles and her Special Force, Crooligans are really the only option she has for this kind of objective-grabing models.

Then there's Nicodem who works great with Molly and as such, he gets more mileage from Crooligans too. Enough so to take them over Necropunks, definitely enough to swap Canine Remains for Crooligans... and probably enough to take them instead of Night Terrors (though this probably depends on the opponent's crew, the Encounter and the Strategy & Schemes too).

Edited November 26, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[fritz the cat]

I don't even see it as an argument. There simply are different sides to Crooligans themselves and while I describe who gets the most from them, you present the side for which they are not meeting up the requirements. IMHO that's normal for such specialized minions.

But first and foremost, they are Molly's "troops" - she's a Henchman after all and having her lead her own crew should be perfectly viable. And since she has to take Belles and her Special Force, Crooligans are really the only option she has for this kind of objective-grabing models.

Then there's Nicodem who works great with Molly and as such, he gets more mileage from Crooligans too. Enough so to take them over Necropunks, definitely enough to swap Canine Remains for Crooligans... and probably enough to take them instead of Night Terrors (though this probably depends on the opponent's crew, the Encounter and the Strategy & Schemes too).

i'd say night terrors are damn near auto not-include. leaving neither counters, nor being undead to gain benefit from his abilities.

[ravenborne]

My 2 cents:

I agree Molly works best with Nico vs other Masters, or just alone.

Too bad the fluff with Seamus does not hold up. I lost the first two games using her with Saemus and won the next 4 when I used her alone. Too much card competition.

Crooligans work great in the Molly as Leader crew, but only for objectives. I think they are pretty good with Nico as a toolbox option for summoning, and I am not very fond of them with McMorning and Seamus, and of course why would anyone want them at all for Kirai ( is there any reason?)

[GAH]

The fluff says that Molly has every reason to dislike Seamus. He murdered her, after all.

I think she would work well with Leveticus.

[fritz the cat]

The fluff says that Molly has every reason to dislike Seamus. He murdered her, after all.

I think she would work well with Leveticus.

she seems like she'd have decent synergy with levi. +3wk on him or the desolation engine seems badass. copying levi's spells can ONLY be awesome haha. With seamus/mcm ive been underwhelmed. And i still dont know what her niche is as a master

[CrazyCarl]

A bit of threadomancy, but can you use the Crooligan's "On the move" (the walk/push after interact) more than once per turn? Say you interact, push, interact, push, is that allowed?

[Fetid Strumpet]

Once per Activation.