Lazarus, Ramos's Apprentice.

[TimeLapse]

Hi all!

Ramos was my first list and I confess that I set him aside for too long to do other things now im back with Ramos, my first army, and my most loved master.

The main idea I have for the list is to use his avatar. I made a proxy and now want to get it in some action! I played 2 games now and here the list I have been playing around with

30ss

Ramos with avatar 2ss + 7ss Cache

Mobile tool kit 3ss

Lazarus 9s

Large Steampunk Arachnid 5ss

Steampunk Arachnid 3ss

Steampunk Arachnid 3ss

Now when playing the list I noticed off the bat its sorta slow, I do not get going till turn 3.

Turn one the tool kit gives Ramos an extra tome and control detonates the large Steampunk Arachnid for 3 scrap counters.

Ramos makes one scrap counter and then makes a Steampunk Arachnid and an electrical creation.

Lazarus grabs the scrap tokens and Assimilates either the tool kits Lab equipment or something from ramos it really depends on the mission and what my opponent has, if he has something that targets constructs I may take perfect machine off of Ramos. Its kinda a wild card but Lab equipment may be useful on turns i don’t have a tomes for Ramos avatar to obey all the constructs with.

Turn 2 The tool kit Control detonates itself. Then Ramos avatars out using the all action. Lazarus will grab the other scrap token and take Ramos Trash into treasure ability, and then make two new scrap counters for himself.

Now on turn 3 i can go into full swing, Ramos is now the avatar and his trusty side kick Laz bot in toe. Slow and costly but I should be getting allot of scrap tokens now and making large Steampunk Arachnid and or Wardens to support my main offensive.

It would be interesting to grab a watcher and give old laz bot flight. But I don’t know if its worth 4ss for a quick laugh.

　

If i make about 2 large Steampunk Arachnid I can use them to block charging lanes and homely get them killed so they drop 3 Scrap counters to keep everything flowing.

I am half wondering if i am getting too side tracked with Lazarus, he is awesome... hmmm The old laz bot can grab Hasty Assembly if I have a surplus of scrap counters and really let me flood the table with models if needed.

Anyways what do you guys think about my list, is it worth it and also how would you run it, and improve on it?

Thanks for any help on this,

Andrew

[Tograth]

sounds like an ok plan, although there a few problems with it:

lazarus cannot be hired by any crew that has hired guild models. So no watcher + laz unless ramos can summon it when he avatars.

also, models cannot copy abilities from avatar models. This is listed in the general avatar rules at the start of twisting fates.

It sucks, because Laz cant copy trash into treasures or hasty construction, but at least it stops the doppelganger being ridiculous.

[Stern]

still think use Soustone is the most useful ability he can acquire, then reactivate

[Darios]

still think use soustone is the most useful ability he can acquire, then reactivate

+1

[TimeLapse]

sounds like an ok plan, although there a few problems with it:

lazarus cannot be hired by any crew that has hired guild models. So no watcher + laz unless ramos can summon it when he avatars.

also, models cannot copy abilities from avatar models. This is listed in the general avatar rules at the start of twisting fates.

It sucks, because Laz cant copy trash into treasures or hasty construction, but at least it stops the doppelganger being ridiculous.

Yeah I was talking summing the watcher. I know all to well the laz bots restrictions.

Hmm drat I missed the no copy avatar section. Grrrr. Oh well. But at lest he could salvage under fire... hmmm

still think use Soustone is the most useful ability he can acquire, then reactivate

Hmmm reactivate would be nice but then I would have to add the brass A. totem and then im tomes hungry again, and my ablity to have a 99% chance to manafest on turn 2 would be gone. (I got a black joker on construct spider my first game trying this)

Hmm will have to rethink me list

[SoulG]

Instead of detonating for scrap counters, you can take a Soulstone Miner and have Laz copy his burrow ability. As long as he keeps burrowing, he'll keep all of his buffs.

Mind you, you can still detonate it simply to let Ramos move twice + make a spider then immediately be able to make a LSPA or similar when he goes avatar.

I'm also a fan of Rusty Alice with Laz, but that's a lot of points for 30ss.

[Telfurion]

if you are going to summon a watcher with Ramos Avatar, you could copy it`s slow to die. Together with the use soulstone abilitiy it make Laz quite tough to kill.

[Wetfishwanted]

still think use Soustone is the most useful ability he can acquire, then reactivate

Where does reactivate come from?

[Tograth]

hmm.

35SS list:

laz

alyce

avatar Ramos

toolkit

LSA

spider

5 SS cache

turn 1, Toolkit detonates LSA and lab tools Ramos. Ramos salvages, summons and ECs. Lazarus assimilates use SS permanently.

turn 2, Alyce Burns out Ramos, toolkit lab tools ramos, detonates itself. Lazarus copies reactivate permanently off Ramos. Ramos salvages summons and does stuff with casting expert, and then Ramos Avatars up on the second activation as an All.

gives you a guaranteed turn 2 avatar, and gives lazarus Use SS and 2 activations each turn.

You trade 1 LSA and your toolkit for 1 spider and an extra activation every turn for lazarus, as well as use SS.

by the start of turn 3 you will have alyce, avatar ramos, lazarus, and a spider swarm doing stuff. Ramos then can keep churning stuff out if you like, (like, 2x LSA and a warden or two...) or he can go kick ass.

[TimeLapse]

hmm.

35SS list:

laz

alyce

avatar Ramos

toolkit

LSA

spider

5 SS cache

turn 1, Toolkit detonates LSA and lab tools Ramos. Ramos salvages, summons and ECs. Lazarus assimilates use SS permanently.

turn 2, Alyce Burns out Ramos, toolkit lab tools ramos, detonates itself. Lazarus copies reactivate permanently off Ramos. Ramos salvages summons and does stuff with casting expert, and then Ramos Avatars up on the second activation as an All.

gives you a guaranteed turn 2 avatar, and gives lazarus Use SS and 2 activations each turn.

You trade 1 LSA and your toolkit for 1 spider and an extra activation every turn for lazarus, as well as use SS.

by the start of turn 3 you will have alyce, avatar ramos, lazarus, and a spider swarm doing stuff. Ramos then can keep churning stuff out if you like, (like, 2x LSA and a warden or two...) or he can go kick ass.

Coolness I just want to get this right,

Can the great laz bot get reactive since its given as an effect instead of a being a talent on the target construct?

[Tograth]

The problem is that the question has been asked on the rules forum a few times, but it has yet to be answered. It has big implications for both lazarus and hoffman, so its still up in the air.

the post about him hijacking reactivate is assuming its ruled to be allowed.

If it is, then yes, he would be. Burn out gives the target construct 2 effects: go down to 1 wound at the closing phase, and gain reactivate (as if it was listed on the stat card).

So long as Lazarus copies it before Ramos activates the second time, he should have just reactivate, as he copies only the one thing at a time.

[sharpobjects]

When you refer to casting burn out on Ramos for him to receive reactivate, are you making the assumption that Ramos's perfect machine talent allows him to ignore the 2nd part of the burn out spell, which is "reduce target to 1 wound at the start of the closing phase"?

Does perfect machine allow him to gain 1 part/effect of the result of the burn out spell (reactivate) and yet disregard the 2nd part/effect of being reduced to 1 wound?

[TimeLapse]

When you refer to casting burn out on Ramos for him to receive reactivate, are you making the assumption that Ramos's perfect machine talent allows him to ignore the 2nd part of the burn out spell, which is "reduce target to 1 wound at the start of the closing phase"?

Does perfect machine allow him to gain 1 part/effect of the result of the burn out spell (reactivate) and yet disregard the 2nd part/effect of being reduced to 1 wound?

No, he talking about useing the 2nd activation to manifest into avatar form, when you do that you discard all effects on ramos including burnouts effect to go down to one wound.

[sharpobjects]

ok, I understand that when you go avatar you remove all effects just prior to transforming.

The henchmen stated above that Lazer is copying reactivate effect from Ramos and not the burnout effect. He goes on to say the spell from Alyce has 2 parts.

So if that is true, can Ramos perfect machine ignore the burn out effect of having to be reduced to 1 wound in the closing phase?

Is Ramos actually receiving 2 effects from the spell Alyce casts on him which "Targets friendly Construct"? Is he receiving reactivate and burnout? Perfect machine allows him to ignore effects that target constructs.

[Tograth]

as far as I can see, the way its working is this:

Alyce is trying to target Ramos with Burnout. It is at this point that Perfect Machine kicks in.

Ramos decides he wants to be a construct. This would be the end of the interaction with Perfect machine.

Burnout is cast. The result is that two effects are applied: Reactivate, and the "reduced to one wound at the closing phase" effect.

When Ramos avatars, he discards all effects on him. If he has already used Reactivate, that leave only the "reduce to one wound at the closing phase" effect.

Perfect machine doesnt allow ramos to ignore components of spells. He can choose to ignore Burnout entirely (as it only affects constructs), but he cannot choose to accept only the beneficial effects of the spell - its all or nothing.

Now saying this, remember that rules marshals are the folks who are the only *official* source of rules clarifications. Everything I post is solely my own interpretation of whats going on.

[sharpobjects]

No worries, I am sure you are correct. I was hoping you were going to say differently

Still a nice trick to get Ramos into Avatar sooner.

[TreeNinja]

I would be interested to find out how this would work, I'm not sure where I saw it but I thought I saw somewhere a ruling that stated that if you have the ability to choose to ignore something you either ignore the whole thing or none of it. which in this case by Ramos manifesting I could see he benifites from the reactiveate without ill effect but that. if this was something that Laz could copy he would be subject to the second part of burn out.

I'm not sure that he would be able to copy as I don't think the reactivate actually becaumes an ability that would be listed on Ramos's card. I would like to find out if it does though. cause Laz can only copy those abilities that are part of the model so I know that if you gave Ramos fast or slow he could copy those but does that mean burn out functions the same way?