Superior Dead vs Von Schill

[Zephir]

Does Von Schill get to ignore hard to wound and gain a +flip vs models with the Superior Undead trait?

[Adran]

I think that wording would be redundant. One cannot attack another model with Strike without targeting it. In other words, I'm not exactly adding words there either - they are implied (Attacking by Strike includes targeting, whether it's ranged or melee).

Attacking by Melee spell does not have to target. Granted I can't currently think of one which doesn't, but I can make one up.

There are ranged spells which attack without targetting already out there.

Since Von Schill has no Spells, they have worded to cover expansion

[Q'iq'el]

As far as I remember, all spells require LoS. It's on the page 50. There are exception to this, but the basic rule mean the LoS is required.

Further more page 50 states if the spell is a melee attack spell or ranged attack spell ( or icon), it follows normal targeting procedure.

I'm pretty sure a or strike or spell without targeting is impossible. There may be exceptions among other spells, but then they'd be just that - exceptions.

And even among exceptions - for example Guild Austringers' attack - the fact they don't require LoS doesn't mean they don't target.

Basically spells that do not target would be direct damage pulses and blasts.

[Toonook]

I see what you're saying, but I feel the wording is far more generalised in this case. It's not specifying an attack or a spell, but rather any effects. The bonus flip is an effect when targeting undead. Generally whenever they talk about a defensive ability or trigger that relies on another model interacting with it, they'll specify melee strikes, or spells, or ranged attacks or combinations of them. "immune to effects" sounds like a blanket statement to me.

On a side note, I kind of enjoy reading through the rules looking for interpretations and nuances lol, I should've gone to law school

[Q'iq'el]

The wording is pretty specific, as far as I can tell. Bar any possible difference between the Book and the actual card, the rules speak about "Melee Strikes, Ranged Strikes and Melee Spells".

That isn't just any attack - those are merely three types of abilities, all of which use standard targeting procedure.

From the perspective of a model with Superior Dead ability, it is targeted by an attack which has a component specifically targeting the Undead.

[Adran]

As far as I remember, all spells require LoS. It's on the page 50. There are exception to this, but the basic rule mean the LoS is required.

Further more page 50 states if the spell is a melee attack spell or ranged attack spell ( or icon), it follows normal targeting procedure.

I'm pretty sure a or strike or spell without targeting is impossible. There may be exceptions among other spells, but then they'd be just that - exceptions.

And even among exceptions - for example Guild Austringers' attack - the fact they don't require LoS doesn't mean they don't target.

Basically spells that do not target would be direct damage pulses and blasts.

I agree I can't think of a way a melee or ranged Strike can't be targeting a model. But as I've said it is possible with Melee or Ranged spells.

For example

Leadstorm is a Ranged Spell with a pulse effect. As such it does not target a model.

Sure, the undead bonus the Gunsmith gets wouldn't effect leadstorm, but there are spells out there that do a pulse with a damage flip. And its undead bonus specifies Undead targets.

As I said, I'm not sure of a melee equivalent currently, but I can easily imagine one.

The Ability has to have been written with future models in mind.

A melee version of leadstorm with an accelerant style damage on a model with an undead boosting effect like silver bullets is not impossible.

[Kadeton]

Wow, I can't believe this thread has run to four pages.

My weigh-in on the subject would be that Superior Dead should work against anything that requires an Undead model for any reason. If the word "target" was replaced with "affect" there would be no ambiguity. I know the "common sense" argument isn't popular on these boards, but seriously - the point of Superior Dead is that stuff which affects Undead won't affect Superior Dead. The rule as written just looks like a poor choice of words... we've never seen that before.

[Q'iq'el]

I don't see how a possible exceptions cause an issue here - if there is a melee spell causing a pulse, then it doesn't target and Superior Dead rule wouldn't apply anyway.

The problem is with components attached to attacks that definitely target the opponent and thus would trigger, IMHO, immunity.

[Adran]

Wow, I can't believe this thread has run to four pages.

My weigh-in on the subject would be that Superior Dead should work against anything that requires an Undead model for any reason. If the word "target" was replaced with "affect" there would be no ambiguity. I know the "common sense" argument isn't popular on these boards, but seriously - the point of Superior Dead is that stuff which affects Undead won't affect Superior Dead. The rule as written just looks like a poor choice of words... we've never seen that before.

Its easily done, the last two have been pretty much myself and Qi'q'el discusing our standpoint, and largely failing to change each others mind.

Basically there are 3 views.

1 The wording is wrong, all effects that specify undead should be ignorable with this.

2 Since Undead knowledge doesn't target the undead in anyway, it won't ignore it.

3 Since Undead Knowledge is adding to something that targets, that target is enough to allow them to ignore the effects of Undead knowledge.

I'll leave it there

[Zephir]

:banghead: Anything yet?

[poulpox]

Sorry to necro this but it happened to us last night, unsure we flipped for it and said no it doesn't work, and Vonschill killed Rogue Necro in 2 shots... a bit harsh to me.

So what is the final ruling on this?

[Calmdown]

I think that the intention of Superior Undead is to stop this and similar things, but as written it doesn't.

Much like the intention of Nicodem's Embrace Death in my other thread is to choose you to allow ththings, but is worded badly so it doesn't always work.

Superior dead, in fact, is more harmful than beneficial. It should allow you to CHOOSE to ignore undead effects; as it is, it will actually block some beneficial things and if they remove the word target but don't make it optional, it will actually stop things like Nicodem's Bolster from working on them...

[Wolfgar]

My opinion on top of all the others at this point...

Superior Dead does not stop Undead Knowledge as currently worded. The effect of Undead Knowledge affects Von Schill, not his target.