Dreamer Change thought

[karn987]

Karn, you feel he deserves a higher SS Cache than Seamus and Perdita? Really? I personally think Kirai's is too high and the Dreamer does what she does in regards to support and placement of crew, but better. Or is it your contention that too many masters in the game have too low a Cache and they should all be raised to a comparable level?

I regards to Chompy being an assassination model, I can understand your feelings on that, but then what is his balance? I know it isn't an exact parallel, but look at the Ikiryo, who serves as Kirai's Assassination piece. Sure Kirai can outactivate most opponents and then send in the Ikiryo for a strike, but the Ikiryo can't take on anything remotely survivable and hope to kill it in her two attacks she will get off the summoning. Plus she is going to have to hope for an initiative win if she wants to attack again before she gets swung at. And even if she gets the 3 attacks she usually dies right after that as her wounds are very low, and her Def is only average. Now sure Kirai can resummon her, but killing the Ikiryo is still a good idea because it prevents the wound and card cycling that reabsorbing the Ikiryo provides, and provides a definite drain on Kirai's wounds which she continually needs to refresh through other actions and other model's actions.

Chompy as an assassination piece currently has no balance to him at all.

He doesn't have to advance carefully to his target or risk dying. He doesn't have to risk any sort of counter attack, because he has multiple ways to escape off the board once he has done his strike, and doesn't even have to wait a single activation before he disappears. His alter half is one of the hardest masters in the game to pin down to even make an attempt at killing, and thereby forcing any realistic hope of killing Chompy from the mind of his opponent.

Now Personally I don't think the forcing the Dreamer to have to use his actions getting into place is a bad thing, especially as he has the capability to use 3 totems all of which can cast magical extension, twice each, in order to bring Chompy out. It makes his use more thought intensive rather than "I want that model across the board Dead. I use Chompy, and your careful positioning to deny me my attack is useless puny mortal MWHAHAHA!"

I think both ideas, of direct replacement and of a 3" range of the Dreamer both have merit for testing, and I will admit that although I feel the 3" move is too much, at least it does get rid of the Shuffle to some extent, which is the issue I have large issues with, and so it could be a solution that in the end is acceptable.

Then Perdita? Oh yes. Perdita frightens me to no end with any master and she is easily one of hte most dangerous combat Masters. She very fittingly deserves 2ss I feel and I would even go so far as to admit I believe Pandora deserves a smaller cache. I will also admit that in my opinion, Seamus should have had a little bigger cache, probably 3ish where I think Dreamer should be.

Remember, I'm not trying to get into the game of "Well A is this to B and B is this to C etc" and we really want to avoid any kind of dirrectly inflamitroy statements. It is a contention of my arguement (not giving my opinion) that yes, there are other masters that have slightly off caches and that 3 seems right with that in mind. Even then, taking onto my experience is the vast experience I have with him (90% of it avoiding the abussive stuff we aim to correct) and I find him burning a lot of SS.

As for Ikiryo, you kinda hit it right on the head with she can be resommened... Ratty laid out some good stuff on Kirai and there is even more to go with it. Ikiryo has some very nice stuff up on LCB and the major one being that ability to return... thats massive. But even then, this is not about comparing 2 models to each other and I really don't want ot get bogged down into it.

LCB as an assanination piece does have balancing factors built into him.

1) is that his accuracy is not top of the pile like several other masters.

2) is that his damage is not top of the pile like a few other masters.

3) is his base size which is a small bit, but does play a very real role.

4) is that he has to rely on this return mechanic for real survivability. Face it, without it he is high and dry except for the random effect of Use SS. Plus this is something almost eveyrone agrees they want to limit.

5) LCB Relies on other models heavily, without the Dreamer he is up a creak without a paddle and in a very very bad spot. Yes this is limited by the Dreamers speed and Shadowy Form (which is easy to counter).

6) Because of his more average to hit stats, he becomes a bit of a card pig. Never really got into how much this effects it, but I notice it quite often.

7) When left where he is, he is drastically easier to kill the nthe other melee-masters. He is actually surprisingly easy to kill and I don't think people really give this enough credit. Remember we are trying to find tweaks that wil bring this more to the front.

I'm sure there are others but that is all that comes to the top of my mind and yes some are minor and others are larger. But I was just trying to prove that there are several of them, and some weigh very heavily on how he plays and how careful you have to be with him.

As for the Magical Extension to bring LCB out thing... remember I suggested on tweaking that on the Daydreams

Now this may be stepping into a land mine, but consider it like this.... to get LCB to really work you NEED to take 4ss worth of models (2 day dreams). Now I realize the issue with that arguement is they do more then just enable him, but it is worth cosidering that he really doesn't go very far without them. Yes the Dreamer can get him there, but its a lot slower and there is really no more guerrilla warfare with it.

If you really want to get into it, you could say the Dreamer is really a 1 to -1 cache Master because you pretty much have to hire at least 2 Day Dreams. Just like how Collodi is really a 0 Cache Henchmen because she is always going to hire 4 Marrionettes because she needs them. So taken from that view.... the 5 cache is actually fair.

To angle it more to your arguement Strumpet, does Perdita or Seamus need to take their totem or really any specific model to work? Nope, they don't need that level of support. Realistically, the Daydreams complete the Dreamer rather then just add onto him like most Totems do. Much like Hollow Waifs with Leveticus. If you consider it like this, the Dreamer really is a about a 1 cache Master that just happens to bring 2 (basically) required supporting models.

Edited October 14, 2011 by karn987

[Fetid Strumpet]

I have a few issues with some of your statements Karn:

1) is that his accuracy is not top of the pile like several other masters.

I would disagree with this because of Paired. I would take paired Cb5 over a straight Cb7 any day of the week, especially given the amount of great triggers both his teeth and his claws each have.

2) is that his damage is not top of the pile like a few other masters

If we are talking about highest dmg potential on a single strike I agree. If we are talking total Wds inflicted after activating, he is definitely up there among the top dmg dealing models in the game. Even Nix said this in his podcast on the Dreamer "Chompy, even with average flips is devastating in combat." The emphasis was mine. When you factor in multiple hits of 2 weak dmg, from onslaught and a finishing up with flay and or poison, not much in the game is going to survive that.

4) is that he has to rely on this return mechanic for real survivability

I can see your point, and while I understand your concerns with not comparing direct models I'd like to point out that Lady J suffers from the same problem, as her Def is 1 point higher and only has 2 more wounds. Sure she has her Riposte trigger, but Chompy has both a very high Terrfying, as well as wicked and Delight in Pain for healing. I would say they are both similarly survivable, with a slight edge going to Lady J if we don't consider Chompy's hiding tricks. I could see your point far more if Chompy had only 5 or 6 wounds say. I'm not advocating for that btw, just making an observation.

Shadowy Form (which is easy to counter).

I have large issues with this statement. Shadowy form currently is not easy to counter, and even when you have a Dedicated melee beatstick able to get past it you are still not likely to kill the Dreamer, as I have said a Shikome, with a purely average combat flips on both sides, was unable to kill him even after she was slingshotted in with all the attacks she could possibly get on him. In order to get past Shadowy form you need a Combat model who is just about as fast as the dreamer, and that the Dreamer not be sandwhiched between 2 nightmares.

(OFF TOPIC)

Just like how Collodi is really a 0 Cache Henchmen because she is always going to hire 4 Marrionettes because she needs them.

This is inaccurate because even if you didn't HAVE to hire them, you would anyway with Collodi, and they don't have to come from his Henchman allowance of 7. I can tell you from personal experience that just playing against Collodi and his 4 marionettes feels like facing a full 25SS crew before you even add a single other model)

To angle it more to your arguement Strumpet, does Perdita or Seamus need to take their totem or really any specific model to work? Nope, they don't need that level of support.

Honestly, I'd rather that they did. In the cases where other models are required for a specific model to function the synergy that is created is often worth far more than the capability to be a little more flexible. In pretty much all games systems Specialists are the name of the game, not generalists. Jacks of all trades are lackluster and subpar because in any situation they are in, you'd much rather have a model dedicated to what the situation requires. The fact that the Dreamer needs to take the Daydreams to work is irrelevant when you look at what they bring to the table. If Seamus' Copycat Killer offered even 1/2 the utility and ability to enhance Seamus' play style that the Daydreams offer the Dreamer, he would be in every single list I created with him, even if I was going avatar.

[Dracomax]

If Seamus' Copycat Killer offered even 1/2 the utility and ability to enhance Seamus' play style that the Daydreams offer the Dreamer, he would be in every single list I created with him, even if I was going avatar.

Which is actually another point; aDreamer can resummon his totems, where most masters can't.

[karn987]

Which is actually another point; aDreamer can resummon his totems, where most masters can't.

No Clue on A. Dreamer He confounds me in a lot of ways and simply look at him as nothing but a fun model. I have a hard time justifying using him basically.

Plus this is about the Dreamer and not his Avatar. I've not mentioned it so far because I don't believe many people have any experience with it yet and I don't think I have enough experience with it yet to bring it into the discussion.

Edited October 14, 2011 by karn987

[karn987]

I have a few issues with some of your statements Karn:

Oh this is assured, we have very different views on this and how far is to far etc. As long as we stay civil its a great discussion

I would disagree with this because of Paired. I would take paired Cb5 over a straight Cb7 any day of the week, especially given the amount of great triggers both his teeth and his claws each have.

Really? I'd take Cb 7 every day of the week. 2 above average Df is awesome, add in Use SS and that is a shoo in to hit more often then Paired.

Paired does have the ability of giving you another chance to find that suite you want, but CB 7 makes that suite count for 2 more in hte total and when it comes to dealing with Masters... thats better then paired 90% of the time. Remember, a lot of what he hunts has Use SS and so that 2 higher Cb is much more valuable then the extra card. Your not going in without a solid Control hand any way, but I simply do not trust luck. Paired is far to random for me and it hurts you as much as it helps you. It's double edged where Cb 7 isnt.

I'd rather increase my accuracy by nearly 50% rather then have the remote chance of increasing it.

If we are talking about highest dmg potential on a single strike I agree. If we are talking total Wds inflicted after activating, he is definitely up there among the top dmg dealing models in the game. Even Nix said this in his podcast on the Dreamer "Chompy, even with average flips is devastating in combat." The emphasis was mine. When you factor in multiple hits of 2 weak dmg, from onslaught and a finishing up with flay and or poison, not much in the game is going to survive that.

Nope Nix was right and I've said it myself before. But when comparing to say Leveticus, Mc Mourning, Lilith, Lady J etc... he's on par or bellow them. Mc Mourning chewing through your Armor and Hard to Wound is crazy good. Levy has a 12 Severe can very easily hit it with his trigger plus his ability to keep coming back. Lilith is hyper accurate and with the Greatsword Flip is fantastic and then Lady J is just... well Lady J! I mean it's sorta like taking a bag of rocks and compraing the any diamonds you find in it to each other... they are all fantastic compared to the rocks but their own differences are small but meaningful and there is little chance of being able to say in all truth which is better.

Remember, onslaught is not assured and I wish people would stop treating it that way. It simply isn't, there is a chance you will get it off or get flay off, but its far from assured.

Potential wise, he is absolutely one of the top ones... but in actually it doesn't actually work out that way. While Paired is good, it is not the silver bullet and Cb 7 is just simply more accurate over all.

Basically, I speak from experience with him. His damage output, while potentially high, is in actually lower then many of those I listed. The constraint is in his inferior CB on his most damaging weapon and his reliance on the suites to pull off the triggers.

We are just going to have to leave this point as there and simply agree that yes he is lethal in melee and yes he is certain in the club of the melee-power house master.

I can see your point, and while I understand your concerns with not comparing direct models I'd like to point out that Lady J suffers from the same problem, as her Def is 1 point higher and only has 2 more wounds. Sure she has her Riposte trigger, but Chompy has both a very high Terrfying, as well as wicked and Delight in Pain for healing. I would say they are both similarly survivable, with a slight edge going to Lady J if we don't consider Chompy's hiding tricks. I could see your point far more if Chompy had only 5 or 6 wounds say. I'm not advocating for that btw, just making an observation.

Nope and its a great observation! I made that comment hoping someone would point out something like this. The big difference between the two is that Lady J's damage output is significantly higher. But they do both rely on other models to help their survivability in a way that generally stands out.

I have large issues with this statement. Shadowy form currently is not easy to counter, and even when you have a Dedicated melee beatstick able to get past it you are still not likely to kill the Dreamer, as I have said a Shikome, with a purely average combat flips on both sides, was unable to kill him even after she was slingshotted in with all the attacks she could possibly get on him. In order to get past Shadowy form you need a Combat model who is just about as fast as the dreamer, and that the Dreamer not be sandwhiched between 2 nightmares.

Shadowy Form is exceedingly easy to counter. Just make it so the Nightmare protecting him is not a legal target *shrugs* Simple as getting out of LOS or Range of the other model, it really doesn't take much to pull off. If he camps his Nightmares around him, then it can become impossible but then they are all clumped around him and are exposing other weaknesses of the crew etc etc.

Also we are getting into the realm of situational stuff here... in practice, Shadowy Form is exceedingly easy to counter. But at the same time, there are easy things the Dreamer player can do to deal with that glaring weakness of it. BUT... they cost him and some times signifantly... becuase those are Nightmares now on the field and in a position where they can be dealt with. While it may not seem like much to a non-dreamer player... it really means a lot.

**Side Comment:

Also didn't they rule for Shikome and its prey ability vs Shadowy Form? That it bypasses it because the other Nightmares are not legal targets? I lost track of that thread...

(OFF TOPIC)

This is inaccurate because even if you didn't HAVE to hire them, you would anyway with Collodi, and they don't have to come from his Henchman allowance of 7. I can tell you from personal experience that just playing against Collodi and his 4 marionettes feels like facing a full 25SS crew before you even add a single other model)

Not true I would say.

Sure he didn't have to hire them (ie there is no rule saying he has to)... but he relies on them and doesn't work without them. Come on man, he needs them. I play Collodi, he doesn't work without them and it is basically a you MUST hire them. So it is actually accurate. Almost no one plays him with less then 4 of them and it is only put that he hires them to give you the option of running with less. But as of right now, there is no reason to not hire 4 of them since he NEEDS them so heavily.

So realistically... he does have to hire them and does effectively have a Henchmen reserve of 0. You'd argue the same way if you played that kinda Master/Henchmen regularly to I believe. I think it comes down to just walking a mile in the other persons shoe's in this case.

Honestly, I'd rather that they did. In the cases where other models are required for a specific model to function the synergy that is created is often worth far more than the capability to be a little more flexible. In pretty much all games systems Specialists are the name of the game, not generalists. Jacks of all trades are lackluster and subpar because in any situation they are in, you'd much rather have a model dedicated to what the situation requires. The fact that the Dreamer needs to take the Daydreams to work is irrelevant when you look at what they bring to the table. If Seamus' Copycat Killer offered even 1/2 the utility and ability to enhance Seamus' play style that the Daydreams offer the Dreamer, he would be in every single list I created with him, even if I was going avatar.

Well what we would like or not... they simply don't and the Day Dreams are a special case Totem just like the Hollow Waifs (who are not Totems I know).

But again, it is not irrelivant when yo ulook at the big picture. I know you've said you don't play him, so I know its hard to try and relate this to you. They are part of the Dreamer, when you take hte Dreamer you immediatly allocate 2 - 6ss for Daydreams because you NEED them, you MUST take them.

Again, I do admit there is no written requirement to take them. But there is a very very real reason to take them boarding on a absolute must include (I do personally view them as a must include). Please, look over the whole bit of Dreamer's Meta and try to see what I'm saying. He falls apart without them, its why we tell you over and over again to target them. He NEEDS them and that realistically makes his cache 2 - 6ss lower then what it is because he is basically paying SS for parts of himself. Look at it like a whole package rather then an addon. Day Dreams are not an addon like Primordial Magic is (for example), they add to the whole package in a much more significant way. This is because the Dreamer was built with this in mind and this exact view. This is why he has the (effective) 5 cache.

Let me admit really fast that no I do not view the Daydreams as being 100% just a justification of his Cache. I realize they bring more to him then just completing his Meta. I would say about half of them is making up the other half of his meta, and the other half is whatever else they grant the crew. So maybe -1 to 3ss to his cache instead for the arguement... but I don't think this is really important to peg down what it would be exactly etc etc.

Think of it like this... what if we took Kirai's ability to make spirits and cut it in half and gave half of that powre to her totem. You'd say that the totem basically becomes a must include at that point. That is what is up with the Dreamer and Daydream. Rather then it all being on the master like 99% of the Masters are in the game, it's spread accross multilple models that he has to pay SS for. That absolutely has to be taken into account like it was when he was put together.

All this said I'm doing my best to keep up with your points! They are extremely good and I do find myself reach at times to find a counter. I appologize for any holes that there may be, but it's hard to have this level discussion while trying to be productive at work. No excuse mind you! Just wanted to make it known

Edited October 14, 2011 by karn987

[Lucidicide]

I feel like we were closer to a consensus before. Now we're back to arguing just how powerful the Dreamer is, and yet we've all basically agreed some minor changes would be appropriate.

Let's try to focus on how to make minor changes that address the issue without breaking the spirit.

I remain firmly in the camp of doing two things:

1. All Daydreams can only do Frightening Dream once per turn, regardless of how many exist.

2. Companion should not be to the Dreamer AND LCB. It's one or the other, so if it gets buried... by by Companion.

This makes the guerilla warfare harder (but not impossible) and puts a longer bomb at risk that shorter drops aren't (since you won't need a Daydream). It stops the activation chain.

Now, I'm happy to consider other things. I would be interested in hearing who doesn't think one of those (or both) would work/wouldn't be enough and why.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Quote:

I would disagree with this because of Paired. I would take paired Cb5 over a straight Cb7 any day of the week, especially given the amount of great triggers both his teeth and his claws each have.

Really? I'd take Cb 7 every day of the week. 2 above average Df is awesome, add in Use SS and that is a shoo in to hit more often then Paired.

Paired does have the ability of giving you another chance to find that suite you want, but CB 7 makes that suite count for 2 more in hte total and when it comes to dealing with Masters... thats better then paired 90% of the time. Remember, a lot of what he hunts has Use SS and so that 2 higher Cb is much more valuable then the extra card. Your not going in without a solid Control hand any way, but I simply do not trust luck. Paired is far to random for me and it hurts you as much as it helps you. It's double edged where Cb 7 isnt.

I'd rather increase my accuracy by nearly 50% rather then have the remote chance of increasing it.

We are going to have to disagree on this one, in my experience paired is better than a jump of +2Cb. Yours is opposite. Don't know where the discussion on this point can go from here?

Remember, onslaught is not assured and I wish people would stop treating it that way. It simply isn't, there is a chance you will get it off or get flay off, but its far from assured.

If we assume that weak dmg is the most common dmg that is going to be inflicted an onslaught or flay are about equally good, and that right there is slightly greater than 50% of all the cards in the deck. You are correct that onslaught is not gauranteed, but 2 Flay is almost as good as or better, and 8 wounds will kill just about everything in the game, sure there are a few exceptions, but we also need to take into account that he will be spending SS since he doesn't need them for defense because his hiding and moving abilities are so good. From that perspective he is better than Lady J and Leveticus et al because he actually can use his SS purely for offense because the potential for him to need them in a defensive posture is minimal. They need to keep in mind the almost certainty they will need their SS on the Defense, he doesn't.

Shadowy Form is exceedingly easy to counter. Just make it so the Nightmare protecting him is not a legal target *shrugs* Simple as getting out of LOS or Range of the other model

Again this is a topic we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I find myself and see others who tackle the Dreamer having extreme issues with this one. In my experience it is VERY difficult against a Dreamer player who knows what he is doing to ever get past Shadowy form, and even if you do you at best get one shot to try to take the Dreamer out, which if even a Shikome can't do reliably, with the Dreamer being her declared prey with strictly average flips I don't see how other models can hope to reliably kill him. And that is before you take Stitched together into account.

Quote:

(OFF TOPIC)

This is inaccurate because even if you didn't HAVE to hire them, you would anyway with Collodi, and they don't have to come from his Henchman allowance of 7. I can tell you from personal experience that just playing against Collodi and his 4 marionettes feels like facing a full 25SS crew before you even add a single other model)

Not true I would say.

Sure he didn't have to hire them (ie there is no rule saying he has to)... but he relies on them and doesn't work without them. Come on man, he needs them. I play Collodi, he doesn't work without them and it is basically a you MUST hire them. So it is actually accurate. Almost no one plays him with less then 4 of them and it is only put that he hires them to give you the option of running with less. But as of right now, there is no reason to not hire 4 of them since he NEEDS them so heavily.

So realistically... he does have to hire them and does effectively have a Henchmen reserve of 0. You'd argue the same way if you played that kinda Master/Henchmen regularly to I believe.

If they had to spend their Henchman reserve on those models, or if the cost of the required totems reduced the size of the maximum Cache you could bring into the game I'd agree with you, but it doesn't. Can you bring a hard hitting Collodi crew into the game with the full reserve in your Cache, yes, I've played against it. The fact that you have required models in your crew doesn't matter if you would take them anyway. Does that mean Seamus' Cache is really 0 then because every Seamus list is going to include at least 2 Belles? Is Kirai's Cache really 0 then because she is going to always include at least 3 spirits for her to work? I'm talking about Cache size when you enter the game, and the Dreamer's is way high, and the fact that he needs Daydreams doesn't affect his Cache at all. Can he come into the Game with 2 Daydreams, and effective Crew, and still have 8 SS in the Cache? If so then your argument about required models reducing the size of actual Cache is misleading and false, although I'm sure it was not intended that way.

EDIT:

And on your point about splitting Kirai's abilities across other models, She already IS. She has required models to play her, they are called Seishin, and you at the very absolute minimum need to bring at least 3 with her, and really its a much better idea to bring the full 5. Does that mean that Kirai actually has a -7 SS cache? Seems odd then that the most sucessful list I've found with her comes in with a +5-7 Cache.

I'm seriously trying to see your point here but I'm just not getting it, could you explain in a different way?

Edited October 14, 2011 by Fetid Strumpet

[Math Mathonwy]

At this point it comes down to semantics. Yes he has flavors of other things in him and I was afraid somoene was going to pick this appart like you have. So fine, they have applications in other ways but Wicked is not really board control in the sense of real board control (ala Transposition) and you have to draw a line some where. Poison is all about being a melee model, same with Terrifying. I already stated mobility wrapped up into 1) from before. As for Card and SS drain, it is not dirrectly just pure that and it is again, wrapped up into his melee ability.

As every Seamus player should be able to tell you, Terrifying is very much board control. I agree that the rest of the abilities are tied up in beatstickyness, but highest Terrifying in the game, with 3" range, coming from a big base is a seriously big control element in this game that revolves around objectives.

We are going to have to disagree on this one, in my experience paired is better than a jump of +2Cb. Yours is opposite. Don't know where the discussion on this point can go from here?

It can go to math, naturally. I don't currently have access to do proper testing, but a quick Excel testing shows paired being better against Df6 (that I tested against), and naturally paired wins when it comes to the trigger access. I can calculate the exact percentages next week if someone is interested in them, but the difference should be on the small side, though definitely in paired's favour.

As a side note, I really, really suggest going with statistics on things like these. It took me maybe fifteen minutes to do a rough calculation (with a million or so random flips) and it really sheds light into these things where even experienced players can be very wrong when going by the gut (especialy when you play the model in question, you more easily remember whiffs than triumphs when thinking about average performance and me most certainly included, mind!).

Edited October 14, 2011 by Math Mathonwy

[LoboStele]

For a bit of anecdotal evidence....

I ended up playing against the Dreamer last night. Now, I wanted to try something fun which I hadn't had a chance to run yet, so my crew consisted of Ramos (Avatar attached), Alyce, Lazarus, a Large SPA, Soulstone Miner, Mobile Toolkit, and a Steampunk Arachnid, for a 40SS game. Maybe not THE most competitive Ramos build, but decent. The Chopmy build was the Twins, Coppelius, Stitched, 3 Daydreams, and a Night Terror.

Chompy's crew had Plant Evidence for Strategy. Turn 1 he did a little bit of swooping in, but my opponent told me he didn't have the cards to do the full assault. He was going to plant some evidence first turn, but my Electrical Creation was too close, so he just attacked it for 1 Wd with Chompy, and then popped back to his Deployment zone.

Turn 2, he brought the whole crew forward, popped out all the Nightmares on top of 4 separate Terrain pieces, with Chompy simply doing an Interact before hiding again. My best recourse to keep him from getting all 4 Victory points, as there was no way I could reliably kill ANY of his models from my current position due to cover, was to move an Arachnid into base contact with Coppelius, and stop him from being able to get Interact #4. Next, Lelu/Lilitu bond activated, did very little beyond Interacting with Terrain and trying to Lure Alyce. Long story short, Turn 2 ended with all of his guys buried again, and the Dreamer/Daydreams back in his deployment zone again. He now had 3 VPs to my none. Turn 3 was a positioning turn, and I began trying to advance (I had Reconnoiter for Strategy...ugh). He spent all of turn 3 doing Defensive stances, etc. Then Turn 4, was when he swooped all the way across the table, pooped out everybody right on top of Ramos, SS Miner, and Alyce. Luckily, I had Ramos' Avatar form ready to go, and I managed to survive Chompy's initial attacks. Didn't matter much though. Ramos only managed to take down Coppelius, then Lelu and Lilitu layed into my pieces.

Long story short, game ended and he still had Chompy at full Wds, Lelu had been down to 1 left at one point, but was now back to 4-5 left. Lilitu was nearly at full health. The only piece I had left was an Arachnid Swarm.

Honestly, I don't feel like I played THAT badly. In my opponent's defense, he's a decent player, but certainly not our best Chompy player at the LGS. I felt like the flips went pretty evenly overall. However, I did have things like one turn where the SS miner tried to hit Lilitu and out of 3 attacks, 2 of them failed to get past Irresistible, and she won the Duel on the 3rd one. One of my Large SPAs used up 5 attacks on Lelu (thanks to Burn Out from Rusty Alyce) and still only put 8 Wds total on Lelu, thanks to only hitting twice and getting lucky Moderate flips for damage on a :-flip.

Honestly, the fact that Dreamer can move his WHOLE crew across the table AND back again in the same turn, pick up 3-4 VPs without any way I could stop it....That's what really irks me about the Dreamer. It's the fact that he can move 20+" AND back again in the same turn. If he has to do it over the course of 2 turns, that would be fine with me as it leaves things open for winning initiative, etc.

[Math Mathonwy]

However, I did have things like one turn where the SS miner tried to hit Lilitu and out of 3 attacks, 2 of them failed to get past Irresistible, and she won the Duel on the 3rd one. One of my Large SPAs used up 5 attacks on Lelu (thanks to Burn Out from Rusty Alyce) and still only put 8 Wds total on Lelu, thanks to only hitting twice and getting lucky Moderate flips for damage on a :-flip.

Didn't you get the memo? Lelu is a glass cannon and always dies when a combat model sneezes at his direction.

But seriously, Reconnoiter is a horrible, horrible strategy, so you really stood no chance from the get go. Now, him killing all of your models is naturally a poweful show, but even Reconnoiter handicapped you massively from the start.

[micahwc]

I stopped reading 8 pages into this, so sorry if this was already suggested.

What if we removed melee expert from LCB? Or, the onslaught trigger? He could still move really far, but if he wanted to move 30 inches he wouldn't have any AP left to attack with. Or, he could still move that far and attack 1 time only.

What do y'all think?

[Fetid Strumpet]

I'm personally not certain that would be a great idea. Chompy is supposed to be a Melee Monster, and in the unlikely event of the Dreamer's death he needs to still be a scary model, as the prospect of annihilation is one of the things that protects Chompy. The movement shenanigans, and more specifically the extent to which they can be abused is the real issue, IMO.

Removing abilities whole cloth like a full trigger or Melee expert not only doesn't accomplish a fix towards the real issue, but also feels far more punitive than an adjustment to how an ability works, I think.

[Ebonstar]

I think when you were talking about letting Dreamer keep these abilities but make them trickier (and maybe even more risky) to pull off is a good idea. I honestly think it would make him more fun to play too, and Dreamer players would face less grief from other players that think he's OP or auto-win or whatever people are thinking nowadays.

You could accomplish tweaks like that by subtle manipulations of requirements without having to overcuddle and potentially ruin the entire mechanic. You brought up some good points about other masters needing to manage resources and plan for contingencies, and if we took that approach with Dreamer maybe we could arrive at something that folks on both sides of the field could enjoy.

[Q'iq'el]

I have a few issues with some of your statements Karn:

I would disagree with this because of Paired. I would take paired Cb5 over a straight Cb7 any day of the week, especially given the amount of great triggers both his teeth and his claws each have.

Sure it is always nice to have paired weapons, but a master needs it less than a minion. A master can always soulstone his attacks and if the master doesn't need to charge in (or is fast) then Focus gives you the same benefits.

In the end it really matters only against targets causing to hit - because if you want to get the trigger reliably, you have to cheat.

to damage is where masters shine and how you can tell top-notch melee masters from the weaker ones.

Lady J will be able to cheat her damage even, if she's at 0 duel total. That means, as long as you ensure she hits, you don't have to worry about your total at all. Lilith gets similar benefits when she charges in.

With Dreamer, you need to spike up your Total to prevent that, and this means spending your resources on every attack, not just those you need to cheat. It really is inferior to Cb7~9 combined with to damage, you'll find on other melee masters (including the buffs to Cb and debuffs to Df they can often cause).

With minions it is all another story - Cb is going to be lower anyway, you can't SS, you hardly ever have enough AP to Focus the strikes and nobody has Control Hand big enough to cheat every strike with every minion. Paired is a great help there. It just doesn't do the same for a master.

[Akujie]

Really liking the discourse in this thread, even if it is as Weird says "house rules."

@Karn, love your insight, need to put that out before I disagree with you, to let you know it is with respect to you as an experienced henchman/player! So really like your idea of altering the daydream, really the Dreamer/LCB master is not bad its his interaction with the daydreams that seem to cause all the fuss. Without them, LCB is still a pretty beasty master, the dreamer can still move him 20 inches in a turn and he could still get a couple attacks off without the aid of daydreams...but for 4 ss, he gets an extra 12 inches in and 32 inches back...I'd pay 4 ss to give lady J an extra 10 walk AP each turn .

But (and mama always says never credit anything that comes before a but) I think to consider them a necessary function to make the master work and thus to look at his SS cashe at 1 is kinda faulty logic (Hoffman can let you ignore that btw), or maybe just a overreached example perhaps? By that line of thought, Perdita needs her family to make her fully operational, as her Alpha strike can be argued as a component that completes her, and the cheapest model with it is 5 points...so a -3 cache if you don't want to argue the whole crew....peices bring in other stuff of course, just as daydreams do, and thats the point I think you were getting at, is that 4 SS for daydreams for 40 inches of movement a turn...for a whole crew, could be the issue.

Same with Collodi...as the henchman all have pretty restrictive hiring limitations. You lose a ton with Lucious if you don't have gaurdsmen for him to command, as he becomes 10 points of early move tricks and...card cycle/bleh melee without guardsman to boss around. Ophelia without her gremlins...cackle and so on. Von can be used alone in a crew, but adding some FK gives him his full use of powers.

So point, even comparing Dreamer/LCB as a stand alone model vs the other beat sticks, he is still very wicked, with more mobility (even without daydreams) then the other beatsticks out there. and yes his damage output is less, but Marcus is the other example of high movement for somewhat diminished offensive capabilities, as dreamer can out damage out move marcus any day of the week...and with all that said, I do agree with you on the changes needing to be more with the daydream then the master himself

@master math: Love the idea of getting the statistical outlook of +2 cb versus paired.

@Q: I would disagree that masters do not use paired as effectively minions. Yeah it is more prevailent with minions since they don't have all the cheating, so it adds the trick to the bag. but a master with his SS use can utilize a paired draw better then a minion can. Big component of the game is resource management, and with paired, you flips give you a better chance of scoring your trigger and/or beating their initial total, meaning they have to cheat more...now yes, it also means with cheating that they can trumph you easier. (ex. 5cb pair flip is 7:masks and 10:rams. 6def flip is 6:masks. since you both flip at the same, you can decide, take the mask for the wicked trigger, and force him to flip to avoid the trigger, or take the 10 for making him burn a higher card. Now he can always through down a 13 and burn your attack completely...but if he doesn't SS, then you can and now he burned a card and still takes damage).

So even if I haven't changed anyone's minds, Chompy with paired is even better, he has some amazing triggers, and the built in positive flip gives him an amazing chance to onslaught or flay, add in SS use and cheating, and it becomes a very solid possibility to geta trigger off. 3 cards flipped, considering your 6 cards are not your suit/high enough, lets say you want 8+ rams, and your initiative flip was not one of the needed cards...then (15% on first card to be needed card, 15% on second card to be needed card<if first is not> and 16% on the SS flip) so 46% chance to get onslaught off on his attack...obviously that will fluxate dependent on how many spell flips you have done before he attacks. but in general the percentage goes up roughtly .5 per card flipped that is not it, and down 3% each time you see one of the needed cards. and since he gets some good damage out of masks or rams, you are in the high 80s percentage for getting one of your triggers from the flips alone... Anyhow post is long enough!

[Ozz]

Ive forgotten your name, and for that im sorry, but in relation to the Cb 5 paired vs Cb 7.

Having done no maths or tests, on average i would say the Cb 5 paired gets a better general average than Cb 7 its only logical to come to that conclusion due to you flip more cards and the result is therefore slightly less random. But, this is a master with a high dmg out put, its likely you cheat to make sure you get a good hit for the dmg, and so the extra card is fairly irrelevant unless you have a bad hand, and as said before, with Use SS, it again becomes even more irrelevant, as you can (assuming you have them still/drew them) Just cheat in a 11 - 13 to hit = 18 - 20 not a lot resists that easily, with a high dmg master its cheating or stones you rely on for the hits, so the paired imo is far less relevant, dont get me wrong still great to have, and a very good ability, but as someone else has said before, you can cheat so the +2 Cb makes the cheat 2 better.

It also means with the extra +2 Cb, you can cheat a lower card and ether make your opponent waste a better card to stop your hit all together (assuming you lost the flip still) or cheat in a lower card yourself, giving you more cards for the preferred trigger.

In my head that makes sense, and is what i think i would prefer, and so i hope my explanation made sense:)

[Q'iq'el]

@Q: I would disagree that masters do not use paired as effectively minions. Yeah it is more prevailent with minions since they don't have all the cheating, so it adds the trick to the bag. but a master with his SS use can utilize a paired draw better then a minion can. Big component of the game is resource management, and with paired, you flips give you a better chance of scoring your trigger and/or beating their initial total, meaning they have to cheat more...now yes, it also means with cheating that they can trumph you easier. (ex. 5cb pair flip is 7:masks and 10:rams. 6def flip is 6:masks. since you both flip at the same, you can decide, take the mask for the wicked trigger, and force him to flip to avoid the trigger, or take the 10 for making him burn a higher card. Now he can always through down a 13 and burn your attack completely...but if he doesn't SS, then you can and now he burned a card and still takes damage).

I'm not arguing functionality here, but the relative value. And I think you overestimate the importance of Paired weapon for resource management in a master... especially a low Cb master like LCB. As I said, high Cb and to damage does more in this regard.

Consider example of an average flip against a weak minion:

A Cb6 minion is up there among the best, as far as minion stats go. It makes a strike with normal weapon, , it draws 6, it is now at Total 12 and to cheat it is the only way to ensure high damage. If the target has to hit, you can't even do that.

Let's say Target's Df is average - 4. Not only the defender will beat the Total with anything bigger than 8, he will be able to cheat it too. On the top of that cards from 3~8 give the attacker negative flips, so there's no hope to cheat the damage if the attackers leaves the Total at its flip value.

As an attacker, you need a really high flip to achieve anything in such a matchup - and if you can't cheat it, it almost doesn't make sense to attack the targets with to hit. Part of the reason why the Duet is so hard to kill for most players.

Now if you give such minion a Paired weapon, not only can it bypass the negative flips to hit and still cheat high, but it has better chances of getting a high flip to begin with.

This is simply extremely valuable. A melee oriented combat minion in Malifaux is just average at killing things. A melee oriented combat minion with Paired Weapons and possibly the third strike (Mature Nephilim, Punk Zombies come to mind) is a master-killer. Something which can dispatch the toughest opponent with some cheating.

I don't entirely agree a master with Paired Weapons has it easier with resource management though. My original argument was the "Paired" isn't as valuable for a master - if you are Cb5~7 and you are in the same position as the minion attacker described above, you add a Soulstone and you immediately decrease the range of flips, at which the opponent makes it impossible for you to cheat damage. You don't need Paired to bypass obstacles like that.

On the top of that, if you are Lilith (who can reach effective CB of 8, by debuffing Df) or Lady J (who buffs herself up to Cb9 if I remember correctly), you already start high - if you flip the same 6, you are sitting at Total of 15. A Df4 minion has to flip at least 12 to beat that - quite unlikely without cheating. Now it is the defender who is in an entirely unreliable position (everything depends on how good his resources are).

Take now LCB's Cb5 and Paired - if you flip 6, you need to cheat anyway, because you're at 11 Total and that's easy to beat or mitigate even for a Df4 minion. If the target has to hit, you are actually gaining a lot from Paired weapon, but if it is not, you only get a slightly higher chance of a good flip - in the end it is still a set of 2 random events and the output is random too - that means you are still likely to cheat and soulstone if you are in position where LCB has to kill his target and that means you gain nothing from Paired weapon every time you still have to cheat to win the duel high enough.

If you don't have any good Control Cards, or if your opponent is actually high Df (6~8), you have to both cheat and add Soulstone unless you flipped very high to begin with (in which case you still want to add Soulstone to ensure you beat the duel with at least 6 points of difference).

How is that helping the resource management and a saving? Any time you hit someone, you spend a Control Card and a Soulstone or you risk simply missing or not being able to cheat the damage flip? Where's gain in that?

Now the second part of my argument was, that relly good melee masters have to damage flips. This is the crucial part - relative comparison of to Paired. Paired, as we said, does little for a Cb5 master - if the Dreamer wants to ensure a hit and Onslaught, he will cheat and Soulstone anyway. Even against a weak Df4 minion he will still cheat, if he needs to kill it quick.

Lady J or Lilith however often won't have to cheat or use their Soulstones at all.

In our Df4 target example, considering Cb9 Lady J has total of 15 with a flip of 6, the opponent beats her with 12+ which already means it needs to cheat to avoid the hit. Thanks to it being melee, she cheats only when the opponent does it and she needs only as much as 8 to beat all his possible options (9 if he's willing to spend Red Joker on that).

On the top of that, if the defender flips anything from 6 to 11 making the difference 0~5 (unless Lady J cheats) she has her :+fate to overcome it and can cheat the damage if needed.

So while on the surface it seems Paired weapons save resources for your master, they don't, especially not if you have low Cb and lack to damage, as LCB does. They make it cheaper if you flip really high, but in case of an average flip, even against a weak target, you still have to cheat high and Soulstone high, because you must ensure 6+ Total difference to get the damage cheat in.

If you attack something more defensive, you are practically required to Soulstone from the start.

If LCB charges, he's closer to what Lilith or Lady J do, but while the later rely on charges to get in combat and almost always get :+fate to damage, LCB is often dropped right next to its target and attacks with no such bonus. This is also why, I think, LCB has such a large Soulstone cache - without it he'd be seriously underperforming in melee.

Edited October 16, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[Math Mathonwy]

Ive forgotten your name, and for that im sorry, but in relation to the Cb 5 paired vs Cb 7.

Having done no maths or tests, on average i would say the Cb 5 paired gets a better general average than Cb 7 its only logical to come to that conclusion due to you flip more cards and the result is therefore slightly less random. But, this is a master with a high dmg out put, its likely you cheat to make sure you get a good hit for the dmg, and so the extra card is fairly irrelevant unless you have a bad hand, and as said before, with Use SS, it again becomes even more irrelevant, as you can (assuming you have them still/drew them) Just cheat in a 11 - 13 to hit = 18 - 20 not a lot resists that easily, with a high dmg master its cheating or stones you rely on for the hits, so the paired imo is far less relevant, dont get me wrong still great to have, and a very good ability, but as someone else has said before, you can cheat so the +2 Cb makes the cheat 2 better.

It also means with the extra +2 Cb, you can cheat a lower card and ether make your opponent waste a better card to stop your hit all together (assuming you lost the flip still) or cheat in a lower card yourself, giving you more cards for the preferred trigger.

In my head that makes sense, and is what i think i would prefer, and so i hope my explanation made sense:)

You forgot something very relevant: especially when killing Masters, it's extremely important to win the original flip so that you get to cheat/stone after your opponent has done so. Paired helps in that. Since LCB is often the first to engage the enemy on Dreamer's side, both players will have full or nearly full control hands, which makes winning the original duel of paramount importance.

As for Q's analysis, he somewhat randomly changed the comparison from Cb7 vs Cb5 paired to Cb9 vs Cb5 paired with predictable results, so yeah, a fully buffed Lady J indeed hits harder than LCB - surprise of surprises. The difference naturally is, that I've never lost Seamus when playing against Lady J while losing him is almost guaranteed when playing against the Dreamer, so the thing to take home from this is that good melee coupled with insane movement is far, far more deadly than insane melee coupled with average movement.

I have no idea what the point of the Lady J vs LCB comparison was, btw. So what if LCB hits less hard than Lady J? That has nothing to do with anything, unless your argument is that LCB is OK because he hits less hard than Lady J. Which is of course a bonkers claim.

[Fading Memory]

I have read sporadically in these posts.

I like waiting to see how the dust settles, but have an idea of my own should it be needed. The problem with book 2 masters is they are all too well rounded.

The Alpha strike is fine its just the ability to get back safely in the deployment zone that is the issue. I play the Dreamer and have only done the Alpha once. Not being able to get back so easily would make a player think, "Is it really that useful to Alpha right now?" Because I screwed up the Alpha (flipped three Severs on a :-fate Damage flip to kill the model with the wrong trigger activated), I realized how key getting back was, and how powerful it was.

The two ways to bury LCB after the Alpha are the All Done trigger and the summoning of the Daydream

A way to change that is to

1. Limit the connecting of Daydreams to two

2. Get rid of the all done trigger

3. Add a (0) action similar to the Dreamers that brings out LCB that says " Bury this model.......This action may not be used the turn this model was unburried.

This way the dreamer hasn't been cuddled to oblivion. Other masters can move far, but can't get back. This way the Dreamer can move far, but can't get back. The Alpha strike becomes a calculated risk than a I can do this and watch you cry tactic because you can't retaliate. I think this could be a very doable and very accepted by the gaming community. Play tests would have to be done of course, but these changes are not an overhaul, and the flavor of the Dreamer hasn't been changed.

With the removal of the All Done trigger, the Manifest requirements would need to be altered as well.

Edited October 16, 2011 by Fading Memory

[Akujie]

@Q. A lot of great points, and I do not deny (believe I even mentioned it before) that yes Lady J/Lillith/Mc/Viks are worse beatsticks then LCB. But that is taken in the context of "I will place my master next to yours, lets activate them and see who does more damage."

1st Lady J; She can actually get her CB up to 11 with Sword Style (by flipping/cheating a 6+ :rams into the total) She can also then get +2 mor from inspiring swordplay. Only pulled it off a couple times getting her to CB 13 and still having a strike left to attack something else, but it is usually a 7/8 damage hit on whatever she hits...however the Sword Style ability is a choice, she can't get the and +2/4CB and Onslaught trigger, she has to choose between one of the three, so its either 11 CB with a from her greatsword, or 7 cb with :+fate whatever meets your fancy for the turn. So yes, Lady J is a monster in combat, argueably one of the sickest damage dealers. But she still needs to get to an enemy, and with her 12 inch threat its usually turn 3ish that you get her into the thick of it.

:justice

2nd Resources; So yes, her abilitys make it so that I can save my resources (cards to cheat and SS) for defense flips and prevention flips, which helps, but I still have to cheat damage a fair amount of time to get that severe and even a 11 CB needs some cheating (yes they blow a bigger card then I need to, but its still a card loss)

LCB resource management; I was looking over this discussion and remembered, he has a 6 cb attack as well...less range and not paired, but if you are not happy with CB 5 paired, you have another option...with poison2 to boot and I believe all his triggers still work on it. His paired flip lets him manage his attack AP as you have mentioned (doesn't need to spend two on a focus against models that give a the attack flip. Doesn't need to spend his AP on engaging a model, the Dreamer imagines him where he wants him to be and poof he is there with ~8 inch diameter of threat and 3 AP of attacks to spend.

His card management. With the paired flip the defender is most likely to cheat first (yes its not as likely as a 11 CB, but still more likely then 7cb), and then you can choose to hold your resources or not. As a defender in that position, you generally have to burn some higher cards to deter them from wanting to cheat it, and even if they burn a 13 with a 4 def, lcb needs 11 to hit, and if it is a mask or ram, he gets +2 dmg or another go. He is not made in the same damage vein as lady J or lillith, who rely on that one or two heavy hits. his onslaught allows for repeated business as long as he beats them, so even pulling a :-fate on the damage flip as long as he is onslaughting thats 3+ potential dmg, or flay for 5dmg. Against minions without SS use, he can consistently get a high enough cheat + SS to assure a strait flip, and then he is hitting as hard as Lady J or Lillith.

But yes, if lady J activates in the midst of a bunch of enemies, she will severly outdamage LCB... but if lady J activates in her deployment zone she will do 0 damage... LCB can activate practically anywhere and with minimal effort deal 6 dmg (two attacks at min damage with no triggers). Throw in a SS and a cheat and he can double that damage...2 ss and a few cheats (i mean, if he is striking and running, what else you doing with those resources?) and you will be tripling that 6 damage.

One thing to note is too me it seems LCB is suppose to fill a role somewhat similar to Marcus, only he (and Im risking the wrath of Team Marcus in saying this) does it all much better. Marcus has a pretty sick movement, a good synergy with his minion of choice, some passive healing and can put some good hurt out in melee. But Marcus moves at best 21 inches a turn, LCB can get 64 inches (32 there and back right). Marcus can deal some good melee damage, but his best only puts him on par with LCB at his worst. Marcus has regen 1 which is nice, but LCB gets one back for every melee strike...anyhow just touching on that, its a can of worms I probably don't want to get into any deeper. Comparing masters is a slippery slope; with crew options and play tactics, strategies etc. Just brought it up because a buddy and I were joking that it was funny that the "supposed best and worst" masters in the game did such similair things and thought it interesting LCB was being compared to Lady J and Lillith but not Marcus.

[Fetid Strumpet]

His teeth don't have Flay, but do have an auto death or discard cards or SS trigger.