Dreamer Change thought

[Mentat_Canis]

Well after the Nekima and Alp change now it seems on the chopping block of everyone's minds is the twins and still the stitched to some degree, and behind it all is the Dreamer though most people don't want to come out and say cuddle the Dreamer.

I was thinking today and I think I might have a slight cuddle to the Dreamer that makes sense and doesn't change that much.

My change is this remove the all my friends trigger, and instead change Frightening Dream to say Place one friendly buried Nightmare completely within 6" of this model and one additional Nightmare per mask in the casting total.

Which means you are allowed a minimum of 2 nightmares max 4 if you lucky ss. You still then still have the ability to bring chompy out as a 0.

I don't know if the dreamer needs a change I don't really think he does its a personal opinion cause I still think Kirai is better but if I was going to make a change I think this is a good one.

Just putting 3 cents out there for the public who thinks the dreamer needs a modification.

[Eddie]

No!

Let me repeat that: no!

I have nothing against the Nekima and Alp changes. But there is no need to change anything else for the time being.

I come from a Magic: the gathering background and always had the deck I played cuddled. I stopped playing.

I'm not a competitive player, I play for fun. But the fun stops when the crew you've invested in changes to unplayable.

[Lucidicide]

OK, well, first, I don't think the suggestion brings the Dreamer anywhere close to unplayable.

But, more importantly, I have to agree that giving the changes some time to settle in wouldn't be amiss. I think Dreamer resentment went awfully high, and we don't want to push for anything that might overcompensate.

[Mentat_Canis]

Yes I don't know if he needed a change I was just putting up a thought for intelligent conversation. I doubt we would see anything soon or at all on the Dreamer.

Eddie what don't you like about this I understand you not wanting a change I am just asking what you thought of it. What do you hate so much.

[sephiroa]

i don't beleive that you would need something like that, if you WANT to change that, for every additional nightmare past 2 discard a card, but i don't think that's neccesary.

the dreamer is OK atm

[Fetid Strumpet]

I think that the only change needed on The Dreamer/Chompy themselves is to strip the SS cache from 5 to 0 (or another low number) as I don't feel that with all the strengths he has he needs, or deserves the high cache he does start with. This in itself might severely help tone down a Dreamer list because a major strength of Chompy is his ability to use SS and lowering the cache he comes in with makes the Dreamer have to make a choice between a large SS crew or a large Cache. Currently he has both.

The biggest issues is with how his daydreams interact with him, if something were done to prevent the insane movement shenanigans they allow him and his whole crew to engage in, such as the "I come in on first turn, drop my crew off in your deployment zone, kill a model with Chompy, and then appear back inside my own deployment zone" nonsense I feel the Dreamer would be a strong master, but not nearly as complained of as he is now.

However I'm not certain how you would go about accomplishing it as I haven't been able to come up with an idea that cuddles the Shenanigans in a satisfactory manner that doesn't require a major rewrite of the Daydream, an option I'm not entirely in favor of.

[Calmdown]

I think that the only change needed on The Dreamer/Chompy themselves is to strip the SS cache from 5 to 0 (or another low number) as I don't feel that with all the strengths he has he needs, or deserves the high cache he does start with. This in itself might severely help tone down a Dreamer list because a major strength of Chompy is his ability to use SS and lowering the cache he comes in with makes the Dreamer have to make a choice between a large SS crew or a large Cache. Currently he has both.

The biggest issues is with how his daydreams interact with him, if something were done to prevent the insane movement shenanigans they allow him and his whole crew to engage in, such as the "I come in on first turn, drop my crew off in your deployment zone, kill a model with Chompy, and then appear back inside my own deployment zone" nonsense I feel the Dreamer would be a strong master, but not nearly as complained of as he is now.

However I'm not certain how you would go about accomplishing it as I haven't been able to come up with an idea that cuddles the Shenanigans in a satisfactory manner that doesn't require a major rewrite of the Daydream, an option I'm not entirely in favor of.

Dreamer is fine. Hs movement is fine too, within the proviso that we compare him against other book 2 masters with similar movement tricks.

Chompy is not fine. He hits too hard for a model that can be pulled so far back. Lilith, Lady J etc at least have to commit to deal out their epic melee damage and have to win flips to trigger their defenses.

The only real issue with the master fr me, overall, is the consistency with which paired claws with use soulstone and two triggers, or poisonous fangs with one trigger and a high cb, kill things.

I honestly think removing use soulstone from Chompy would almost completely solve the Dreamer's OPness. Limiting the cache (down from his incredible 5) would be a less efficient option and also break daydream summoning, and not address the real unanswerale alpha strike issue.

There is a secondary issue here that Lelu/Lilitu/Stitched are also OP and combined with the Dreamer's movement/inflict dreams/etc become more so, but focusing on the Dreamer specifically, SS is the big one imho.

Edited October 11, 2011 by Calmdown

[Cats Laughing]

I think that the only change needed on The Dreamer/Chompy themselves is to strip the SS cache from 5 to 0 (or another low number) as I don't feel that with all the strengths he has he needs, or deserves the high cache he does start with. This in itself might severely help tone down a Dreamer list because a major strength of Chompy is his ability to use SS and lowering the cache he comes in with makes the Dreamer have to make a choice between a large SS crew or a large Cache. Currently he has both.

When I first read the Dreamer rules I thought he was pretty cool and his method of getting soulstones was interesting and *limiting*

However, that was because I was still very new to the rules and thought that his rules gave him a soulstone for each Nightmare but also capped his total starting cache at 5.

Compared to other masters, that could get 8 in a scrap, I thought that was a nice limiting factor.

He got his for taking Nightmares, effectively for free, but was limited in his total, so could be at a disadvantage against masters that took a full cache of 8.

Too bad I was wrong

[Fetid Strumpet]

Well there is where the issue is, movement and speed are so key in how this game is won that I feel Kirai gets close to the OP mark as well, and I play her. Really in almost every strategy there is Kirai is better at it than any other Resser master, often because I can afford to spend 3 to 4 turns doing nothing but harassing your crew or killing them and getting a commanding handle on the game and then zipping off to complete whatever I needed to do in the last two turns.

[Eddie]

Let me say this first: everything I say is from my viewpoint and the way I play chompy.

Eddie what don't you like about this I understand you not wanting a change I am just asking what you thought of it. What do you hate so much.

That change disables his ability to drop his crew, which is his main ability if you ask me. Even if you can still drop chompy for 0 afterwards, it will hugely impact his play-style (or at least the way I play him). I never use that ability as I usually want chompy out with the spell due to extra distance and ability to use another 0 for a spell.

I think that the only change needed on The Dreamer/Chompy themselves is to strip the SS cache from 5 to 0 (or another low number) as I don't feel that with all the strengths he has he needs, or deserves the high cache he does start with. This in itself might severely help tone down a Dreamer list because a major strength of Chompy is his ability to use SS and lowering the cache he comes in with makes the Dreamer have to make a choice between a large SS crew or a large Cache. Currently he has both.

I don't get it. His cache is 0. Yes, he receives a soulstone for each nightmare so it will probably always be 5. But you don't have to play with 5 nightmares. In a build I use I only have 3 nightmares: 2 daydreams and Coppelius.

A dreamer crew is out-activated most of the time. Why make that worse with a smaller crew?

Edited October 11, 2011 by Eddie

[Fetid Strumpet]

Because of it's effectiveness, perhaps?

[Calmdown]

A dreamer crew is out-activated most of the time. Why make that worse with a smaller crew?

You're only outactivated because your models are off the board.

And the absolute optimal Dreamer lists, have more models on the board at deployment than most people are currently playing with anyway.

[Issalbotproto]

I think the dreamer is a totally balanced Master, he's powerful in his own ways just like every other Master he's just spent so much time in the spot light because of Alp bomb that everyone thinks he's too powerful, I don't play him but there's a lot of guys at my LGS that do, and he's just as much of a pain to deal with as Sonnia, Raspy, Levi, Nico, Kirai, Pandora all of them. This game is about challenge, not getting your nickers in a twist everytime you lose.

[Gollum528]

I agree with the thought that the dreamer really doesn't need any changes because I don't think he's too bad now that the alps have been cuddled a little. I would also not be opposed to reducing chompy's damage output or ability to use soulstones (one or the other, not both) because I think he'd be plenty powerful afterwards. This would mainly help all the ressers and arcanists in that he won't be able to drop your master turn one without retribution for it. Another possibility, if people think this is really an issue is to make the daydreams have to be in 6" of the dreamer to unbury chompy. This would make it so chompy is still probably going to be in range for a counter attack for the next turn.

[Calmdown]

I love how people think that Alps being cuddled makes the Dreamer OK now.

Oh well, enough of fighting a lost cause. Keep him as he is! Dreamer is fine!

[Eddie]

You're only outactivated because your models are off the board.

That's still outactivated

And the absolute optimal Dreamer lists, have more models on the board at deployment than most people are currently playing with anyway.

Yeah, prepping your nightmares against spirits and constructs is so much fun.

[Lucidicide]

I love how people think that Alps being nerfed makes the Dreamer OK now.

Oh well, enough of fighting a lost cause. Keep him as he is! Dreamer is fine!

The attitude you bring to these discussions makes it nearly impossible to have a real discussion about these things. The sarcasm present on this post... just a bit ago on another post someone's comment made you "literally" want to shoot yourself. I think you need to tone it down if you want a real discussion on these things.

Also, enough of fighting a lost cause? I'm pretty sure Wyrd just proved it wasn't a lost cause by making changes.

Some of us do want to have real discussions about these things and the best way to handle that, and none of those discussions benefit from extreme sarcasm.

[Calmdown]

The attitude you bring to these discussions makes it nearly impossible to have a real discussion about these things. The sarcasm present on this post... just a bit ago on another post someone's comment made you "literally" want to shoot yourself. I think you need to tone it down if you want a real discussion on these things.

Also, enough of fighting a lost cause? I'm pretty sure Wyrd just proved it wasn't a lost cause by making changes.

Some of us do want to have real discussions about these things and the best way to handle that, and none of those discussions benefit from extreme sarcasm.

I realise that.

However, it's frustrating to have people who simply don't understand the mechanics behind what is good and bad dropping in comments about the Dreamer being "OK" during an otherwise constructive discussion. So I'd argue that my aggravation is not as destructive to the discussion as people without a good understanding of the game chiming in with ill-informed opinions.

At the end of the day all I care about is that the game would be better for everyone if there were less Dreamer/Dreamer-like models. No more, no less.

[Alviaran]

Having sat through having one of the most powerful models available to my primary faction in another game get cuddled twice, a year apart, I can say that slight changes and letting them settle is DEFINITELY a better move. Let things settle, see where it all goes. Part of the frustration players have with the "OP" stuff tends to be how often it is played. There is always a segment of the community that just gravitates to the flavour of the month. Take the really over the top stuff off the table and see how the complaints are after a while, after those players float off to something else. Then if it is still being complained about and being too high in rankings, you come back through again.

Minor changes let the designers adjust the power level without Cuddling something into the ground. Cuddling something into the ground, even if it is justified, is likely to tick people off and cause them to leave. I know I left another wargame years ago because of watching the pendulum of balance swing back and forth.

Wyrd seems to be far more intelligent than that company and far more like the first I mentioned, so I expect they will give it some time and see what happens. I trust they will make further adjustments if needed for the health of the game.

Calmdown, I'm sorry, but even if you are the most highly skilled player in the world, they way you come into threads makes you seem like a troll. I dread seeing your ironic name come up because it is going to be some sarcastic and snide sideways attack at someone, some playstyle or some model that other folks like. It isn't constructive. There are ways to get your point across without needing to be as antagonistic as you are. You do neither yourself, nor your position, any good with the way you approach things. I'm glad I'm not the only one seeing it either, even if I am the new guy.

[Cunning]

Having played quite a few games with and against the Dreamer I do think that it's Chompeh himself who is far and away the strongest part of what he does. Even before the Alps got changed.

Being able to pop out nightmares anywhere is very nice and obviously was what the Dreamer's 'thing' was designed to be.

However as Chompeh is also a nightmare, who also activate immediately after the currently activating player if he gets unburied and is pretty much the beatiest beat stick in the game he gets a bit silly.

If I were to suggest a fix (and this is just a suggestion, may not work in practice) it would be that either Chompy can't be unburied by Call Nightmare's (or whatever it's called) and only by the Dreamer using an action that would replace himself with Chompy (It's still early and I can't remember off the top of my head if such an action exists)

This removes the ridiculous hit and run that you can pull off with a couple of daydreams but still allows the Dreamer to do his 'thing' of popping out nightmares all over the place.

[Smokey616]

Quick one for ya with regards magical extension and the dreamer;

If lcb is out and the dreamer buried, am I right in assuming the daydream can't cast the dreamers (1) spells but can cast lcb's (if he had any) ?

[karn987]

The attitude you bring to these discussions makes it nearly impossible to have a real discussion about these things. The sarcasm present on this post... just a bit ago on another post someone's comment made you "literally" want to shoot yourself. I think you need to tone it down if you want a real discussion on these things.

Also, enough of fighting a lost cause? I'm pretty sure Wyrd just proved it wasn't a lost cause by making changes.

Some of us do want to have real discussions about these things and the best way to handle that, and none of those discussions benefit from extreme sarcasm.

Well said.

It's also a big reason why some of the most learned forumites are avoiding these discussions, because of that attitude. Calmdown you come off as not wanting a real discussion because it is very much your way or the high way. Again you were presented with counter points with facts and supporting evidence in threads and you ignored them and brushed aside their points. You immediately drag any thread you get involved in down to a peeing match and have managed to insult and offend at least 1 person visibly a day for no reason. These are not personal attacks, these are just simple facts that are basically on record now.

However, it's frustrating to have people who simply don't understand the mechanics behind what is good and bad dropping in comments about the Dreamer being "OK" during an otherwise constructive discussion. So I'd argue that my aggravation is not as destructive to the discussion as people without a good understanding of the game chiming in with ill-informed opinions.

At the end of the day all I care about is that the game would be better for everyone if there were less Dreamer/Dreamer-like models. No more, no less.

You realize the same thing can and has been said about you over and over again. You don't back up your arguments 90% of the time and you troll threads. Your arguments are absolutely destructive to discussions because you breed anger rather then ideas. You yourself have shown a lack of understanding in many aspects of the game. You've certainly closed some of your rather large gaps in knowledge from your first rant about things being OP. But you are just as bad as you perceive those players if not worse because you intentionally try to anger people. That post right there is proof enough, you continue to insult people yet again and drag down a discussion.

Calmdown, if you would argue in a clear and respectful manner people wouldn't keep calling you out. Half of it seems to be reverse trolling on peoples part who are sick of your attitude and lack of respect. Why not try and switch tactics and leave behind the attitude and superiority and actually join the discussion? If you really want to get something done, then work with people instead of against them. I personally invited you several times to share and explain your points in more detail, to hold a real discussion. Why? Because I'm out to see where these can lead to and see what people can come up with. The last thing I want is a destructive attitude annihilating a potentially fruitful discussion/argument.

=============================================

@OP: The thinking is at least getting onto the correct line I think. The thing that makes the Dreamer over the top is the very essence of what he is as a Master. Those Unbury mechanics of his are the key to his power but it isn't him you should be looking at. There is another Lynch pin to his crew which facilitates the long strike and return, a model to which he could not do it without. Take a look at his Wiki Entry (yes its unfinished), it breaks down the long bomb into it's components and gives you the approximate strike distance of it (it doesn't take into account the distance gained from your base). There are two good points to cut this chain of actions off at.

One suggestion that could certainly do this was to make it so Frightening Dream can't drop out LCB. This certainly cuts down on the movement distance, but does it hurt his utility to much? The idea is this should eliminate the abuse but not cuddle him and when you look carefully, his mechanics are very finely tuned. To much sway in one direction breaks him completely or cuddles him into oblivion.

So the question is, what are the ripples of tweaking Frightening Dreams in such a way?

Edited October 12, 2011 by karn987

[karn987]

Quick one for ya with regards magical extension and the dreamer;

If lcb is out and the dreamer buried, am I right in assuming the daydream can't cast the dreamers (1) spells but can cast lcb's (if he had any) ?

Correct. The Daydreams can only cast spells of the one that is out at the moment. So LCB out, no Dreamer spells.

[Cunning]

One suggestion that could certainly do this was to make it so Frightening Dream can't drop out LCB. This certainly cuts down on the movement distance, but does it hurt his utility to much? The idea is this should eliminate the abuse but not cuddle him and when you look carefully, his mechanics are very finely tuned. To much sway in one direction breaks him completely or cuddles him into oblivion.

So the question is, what are the ripples of tweaking Frightening Dreams in such a way?

My feelings exactly. I do feel he needs something, but it's a fine line to tread. Both the Dreamer and Chompeh are actually pretty easy to kill if you let the enemy get close to them so cutting out their movement shenanigans too much will leave them unable to drop out their nightmares without being able to defend themselves.

[Smokey616]

Correct. The Daydreams can only cast spells of the one that is out at the moment. So LCB out, no Dreamer spells.

Cool cheers dude