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Well Well Well, where are we now.


Dolomyte

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Balancing Nightmares is a crazy hard thing to do since ideally they would work for normal crews but not be over powering in the insanity that is the Dreamer crew. In other words, you need to come up with models that work both with and without limitless movement. No small task to get right.

Why is this a requirement, out of curiosity? Other masters have models in their faction that they cannot take, or they can take, but are not nearly as effective choices. I don't see why the Twins should be any different. They shouldn't be Woes-Nightmares-Nephilims all in one package, in my opinion.

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Why is this a requirement, out of curiosity? Other masters have models in their faction that they cannot take, or they can take, but are not nearly as effective choices. I don't see why the Twins should be any different. They shouldn't be Woes-Nightmares-Nephilims all in one package, in my opinion.

Yeah, but making models usable by multiple masters is good business and makes more players happy.

Dreamer is, arguably, the only Master with such problems in this regard. I mean, guild constructs work better with Hoffman, for example, but the synergy isn't on the level of "infinite movement" so making them usable by other guild Masters while still keeping them balanced in a Hoffman crew is a lot easier than keeping Nightmares usable outside of Dreamer crew but balanced when fielded with that specific Master.

Note though that I'm not convinced that Lelu and Lilitu are correctly balanced in a Zoraida crew (the only Master they don't have obvious synergy with) let alone with the other Neverborn Masters, mind you.

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i played 7 games this weekend with the Lelu/Lilitu version. It's so horriblly filthy it doesnt bare thinking about. If I came up against it in a tournament with a list that wasnt equally filthy Id probably just concede and go get a beer.

Lilitu is kind of ok although still to cheap for a 5" floating irresistible model with heals and super lure, but Lelu is so horribly undercosted. He puts most 9+ points models to shame. Auto poison and paired WITH flay and melee expert, not to mention everything else, is bent.

Sigh.

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i played 7 games this weekend with the Lelu/Lilitu version. It's so horriblly filthy it doesnt bare thinking about. If I came up against it in a tournament with a list that wasnt equally filthy Id probably just concede and go get a beer.

Lilitu is kind of ok although still to cheap for a 5" floating irresistible model with heals and super lure, but Lelu is so horribly undercosted. He puts most 9+ points models to shame. Auto poison and paired WITH flay and melee expert, not to mention everything else, is bent.

Sigh.

My poor ramos crew did ok... until you lured ramos the full 18" up the board and went to town on him after I killed the dreamer

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So whats this new complaint this time? Lelu and Lilitu?

Yeah, but making models usable by multiple masters is good business and makes more players happy.

Dreamer is, arguably, the only Master with such problems in this regard. I mean, guild constructs work better with Hoffman, for example, but the synergy isn't on the level of "infinite movement" so making them usable by other guild Masters while still keeping them balanced in a Hoffman crew is a lot easier than keeping Nightmares usable outside of Dreamer crew but balanced when fielded with that specific Master.

I see someone has finally come around and started saying this. Its the disparity of the Nightmares and one of the reasons why they are some of the hardest to balance models in the game. The Dreamer really just does 1 thing for them, but that 1 thing is so potent it becomes overwhelming. Alps are now probably the best example of a Nightmare that is balanced for the Dreamers abilities and general use. Though even then you can see they are many times less useful with the other Masters then with the Dreamer (mind you this is not saying they are still not useful with them).

Note though that I'm not convinced that Lelu and Lilitu are correctly balanced in a Zoraida crew (the only Master they don't have obvious synergy with) let alone with the other Neverborn Masters, mind you.

It's matter of opinion really. As a unit, for 14ss they are strong but potentially very balanced. Their one broken feature still is Double Take from Lilitu but Wyrd chose to errata Nekima instead of Lilitu's Double take *shrugs*. Otherwise Lelu is an offensive powerhouse, but goes down like a heap of bricks when you go at him. His Df is low, he has no avoidance, and nothing to mitigate the incoming damage. Yes if he survives to activate (and through the end of a turn) he can heal a potential 4 wds and even more when he activates. But that is just the type of model he is, he is a self healing melee monstrosity. Are his offensive options a bit over-kill? *shrugs* Not worth the time arguing over them.

But he is a step up from the Young Nephilim (the best 6ss melee monster in the game) and takes the spot of the best 7ss melee Monster in the game. Neverborn traditionally have the best melee monsters in the game because... that is part of what their faction meta is.

Even still, Lelu and Lilitu are very much deal-able and I question how Ramos got lured that far across the board. Was it the L word? (luck) on the Lilitu players part? Because that is what it would take. Ramos is Wk 3, to get close to 18 inches he would have to fail about 6 Lure resists... that's rather suspect.

The rule with Lelu is you get him before he can get you. Yes with Lilitu or the Dreamer around its easier said then done. But instead of whining (again) about a model, you stop and take a look at where the pair is lacking. A big one is the fact that they rely so heavily on each other. Take 1 out and the other fades quickly. The second is Lelu's speed is terrible, he's slow and very very vulnerable to ranged fire but Lelu partially compensates for that with Lure. Even still, focus some ranged fire on Lelu when your getting close and he can go down rather fast. Nino makes mince meat out of him, especially with Austringers backing him up. Soulstone Miner basically turns him into puree almost instantaneously never mind that the Duet can get it in and take him down rather quickly. Or some of my personal favorite, a model with powerful AE's like Sonnia or Raspy just nails him and kills Lilitu with the Blast damage. Third, and this I tell people over and over again, the healing only matters if they survive that long. Its not hard to put down a model in a single round, it happens all the time. Lelu's low Df makes him an easy target and 9 Wds is great! But it won't survive that many shots or cuts etc. Masters can handle the Twins (generally) very well and efficiently. Use SS gives you a huge advantage over them and a good strong AE takes them down quickly if they are clustering. Otherwise when they are isolated they are much easier to deal with because you dont have the other one breathing down your neck.

If your walking down the open lane when there is a Lilitu at the other end, well its the same when you do it vs Belles or Hamelin. Your just asking for it at that point. Playing stupid doesn't make what your playing against over powered. You have to stay out of their Line of Sight or be willing to take the risk and consequences. For someone like Ramos who are insanely slow as it is, it is a hard choice. But he should have little to no issue if he just screens with a Construct, especially an Immune to Influence one like the Guardian or Hunter. Then only Pandora is your problem but your already in a hard situation against that. Heck take the Mechanical Rider, its a great 8ss model and blocks a very large portion of LOS. It's really not that hard to deal with Lure or the Twins in general. A 2 pair Alpha strike on the other hand is more then a bit hard to stop.. but at the same time we've already dealt with this in the form of the Ortega's who have the same if not more power then the twins.

EDIT: Forgot my little bit: I am neither saying nor denying that the pair are "OP" or a little off. I am merely voicing a different view point that may or may not be my own. I am indeed playing the role of the Devils Advocate in a lot of this in effort to generate more thought and discussion. My real opinions are kept to myself.

Edited by karn987
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So whats this new complaint this time? Lelu and Lilitu?

I at least have always been complaining about them (and about Stitcheds). The difference to old Alps is that they at least can be dealt with more intelligently than just waiting for the opponent to make a mistake so they don't create quite as negative a play experience.

I see someone has finally come around and started saying this.

You say this as if I have somehow changed my mind about it or something. To my understanding, I've always held this opinion and have posted several times to the effect.

Alps are now probably the best example of a Nightmare that is balanced for the Dreamers abilities and general use. Though even then you can see they are many times less useful with the other Masters then with the Dreamer (mind you this is not saying they are still not useful with them).

I'm not convinced that they are balanced. If I played Neverborn, I couldn't see myself taking them for anyone except Dreamer and (a very big) maybe Pandora (though not really seeing the point for her). Of course Coppelius spawns them, so they can be seen on the table with other Masters as well, but due to the Insignificant I'm just not seeing the utility anymore (other than for Dreamer, naturally).

It's matter of opinion really. As a unit, for 14ss they are strong but potentially very balanced.

"potentially very balanced"? :confused:

Otherwise Lelu is an offensive powerhouse, but goes down like a heap of bricks when you go at him. His Df is low, he has no avoidance, and nothing to mitigate the incoming damage. Yes if he survives to activate (and through the end of a turn) he can heal a potential 4 wds and even more when he activates. But that is just the type of model he is, he is a self healing melee monstrosity. Are his offensive options a bit over-kill? *shrugs* Not worth the time arguing over them.

Well, if you ignore the thing that is over the top, then yes, I agree, Lelu is extremely balanced but I'm not sure that's a useful way of examining him.

There are models with similar SS cost and similar function and Lelu outstrips them damage-wise completely ridiculously. He isn't especially fragile for his cost, really, he just seems that way because the enemy has to kill him before he gets into melee so they throw everything at him to do so. Similar to Samael (who is more fragile, mind you).

I'll grant you that it is an extremely common misconception in minis games that too good things are balanced because the enemy has to kill them and so devotes all their resources to doing so and succeeds.

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It's really not that hard to deal with Lure or the Twins in general. A 2 pair Alpha strike on the other hand is more then a bit hard to stop.. but at the same time we've already dealt with this in the form of the Ortega's who have the same if not more power then the twins

I know this is a concept that you really struggle with historically, but just because something can be dealt with does not mean that there's nothing wrong with it.

The best form of defence, in any game, is making sure that your opponent has nothing to attack you with. That is Neverborn's "thing", that is why they're the best faction, and Lelu exemplifies it. If you honestly can't see that he's completely wrong for his points value, I'll stop arguing it because there's clearly no hope.

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The one thing I have found from playing against them is even though individually they are reasonably tough as soon as one of them dies the second one dies almost immediately afterwards.

So even if Lelu is a bit tough for a 7ss model with his abilities. Is he too tough for a 14ss model.

Edited by Ratty
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I know this is a concept that you really struggle with historically, but just because something can be dealt with does not mean that there's nothing wrong with it.

to be fair to Karn, he often does admit that things are out of balance (like the Dreamer). He just seems to end up defending the status quo a lot of the time. I have a feeling that there is a non-trivial amount of talking past one another in these conversations :)

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I know this is a concept that you really struggle with historically, but just because something can be dealt with does not mean that there's nothing wrong with it.

The best form of defence, in any game, is making sure that your opponent has nothing to attack you with. That is Neverborn's "thing", that is why they're the best faction, and Lelu exemplifies it. If you honestly can't see that he's completely wrong for his points value, I'll stop arguing it because there's clearly no hope.

Now now, no personal attacks Calmdown. Come on man, take a chill pill. Did you miss that part where I said I'm playing Devils Advocate? Keep the personal attacks to a minimum please.

Yes you are very correct, the "Best defense is a good offense" mentality is a very potent one. I don't think it is exactly Neverborns "thing" but just rather something they are good at. A decent number of their models don't really fit this view and other factions can do it almost as well. Though most models in the game do fit this view as very few are actually defensively focused and most tend to be more aligned with Offense over Defense.

But again, read the entire post please next time. If you want to prove your point, then prove it and don't take that route. I'm providing a counter point to yours and others rather then voicing what my own opinion actually is. I'm curious as to how you will defend your point logically rather then just stating "your wrong".

@Calmdown: With it in mind that I am asking this to see what you have to say: How is he completely wrong for his points in your opinion? What makes him so over the top? And what are the things that cause this?

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The one thing I have found from playing against them is even though individually they are reasonably tough as soon as one of them dies the second one dies almost immediately afterwards.

So even if Lelu is a bit tough for a 7ss model with his abilities. Is he too tough for a 14ss model.

This.

Our local Lilith player (only person who currently runs the twins at all) has been having some major issues justifying the twins at 14ss over 2 Youngs for 12ss

Sure, they have a host of amazing abilities but they're dependant on each other (particularly in a lilith crew where there's no additional mitigation for them if one dies)... and after my first game against them when Lelu ripped into a few cheap models and absolutely destroyed them i've now had no issues countering him with my rezzers by waiting until after he's activated, drawing him out with lures and making sure he drops fast (usually turn 2) with a combination of a Convict Gunslinger and McMourning/Flesh Construct to put him down... and with rezzers i've got no issues out-activating him and wouldn't particularly worry about doing the same with Seamus or dropping a few heavy hitters on him with Kirai

All that said, i've got no experience dealing with them in a Dreamer crew and i'd imagine that gets pretty traumatic with the Lelu's damage output

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to be fair to Karn, he often does admit that things are out of balance (like the Dreamer). He just seems to end up defending the status quo a lot of the time. I have a feeling that there is a non-trivial amount of talking past one another in these conversations :)

I'm Devils Advocating a lot of the time is what it is. If you want to change the Status Quo the arguments against it have to be very strong. I pushed and pushed against the Alp arguements so that better and stronger ones would come out. Without someone to argue/discuss against/with it often just falls on deaf ears and becomes just whining. But put someone up opposed and suddenly perspective changes ;)

Plus I really want to hear other peoples answers to these questions. I want to see the most vocal people think and I want to know what and why about it all.

But yes, I will admit it again just to be clear. I do believe the Dreamer is a bit over the top. I believe (personally) that there are several things in Malifaux right now that are over the top and could use some general tweaking to bring into line. I've identified the Dreamer as one because he has been one of my favorite things in the game since I saw him. I will also admit here that I find the Lilitu to be over the top in 2 aspects and Lelu to be over the top as a whole when paired with the Dreamer (I wont share my personal opinion on him with other masters). But how much of this is the Dreamers doing and how much is Lelu's is a bit hard to say because there is another Master that causes almost exactly the same issues to arise.

The pair of them are certainly some of the best models in the game and I do personally value them at more then 14ss for a pair of them. But I do find their 14ss price tag to be a bit hard to swallow at times. They certainly have some major drawbacks for the pair of them and I don't believe people are giving that enough credit. But is it enough to call the 14ss price tag enough? That's quite a loaded question ;)

Edited by karn987
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The pair of them are certainly some of the best models in the game and I do personally value them at more then 14ss for a pair of them. But I do find their 14ss price tag to be a bit hard to swallow at times. They certainly have some major drawbacks for the pair of them and I don't believe people are giving that enough credit. But is it enough to call the 14ss price tag enough? That's quite a loaded question ;)

Just to throw my opinion in there on this point, i'd say if you took them individually without "Same Malignant Force", so no wound loss but no double-dipped healing either i'd happily pay 8ss for either, maybe even 9 for lilitu and i reckon they'd still be a steal...

Whether the downsides are enough to pay only 14ss for both, Karn's right, loaded question

But in larger points games, say 40ss+, i'd say i'd rarely not bring the twins... in smaller games like 25ss, then 14 is a hell of a pricetag to justify... 35ss, the "standard" game size, it's alot but not expensive enough to be really prohibitive if you accept they'll likely form the cornerstone of your list

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The one thing I have found from playing against them is even though individually they are reasonably tough as soon as one of them dies the second one dies almost immediately afterwards.

So even if Lelu is a bit tough for a 7ss model with his abilities. Is he too tough for a 14ss model.

Nicely put. This has been an honestly perplexing part of the twins. What I have seen is that as you add more of them to the mix, their power seems to increase at steeper rate then their cost. So by the time you get to 2 pairs, the Cost to power ratio is potentially all out of whack. They're a bit like Sorrows where everyone you add beyond the first increases the effectiveness of them all by an increasingly larger proportion. Though Sorrows have a point where this tapers off and actually starts to go down... but do the Twins have this same point?

Otherwise with 2 of them, I've seen mostly the same thing Ratty just said. Once one dies, the second is usually very quick to follow.

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The other thing I see missed a lot with Lelu is he has no real defenses. He has 5 defense and 9 wounds. A bit of concentrated fires tends to take him down quickly.

Like many other heavy hitting scary models(for example Samael). He becomes a priority 1 target and generally goes down quickly once he jumps out behind blocking cover.

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@Calmdown: With it in mind that I am asking this to see what you have to say: How is he completely wrong for his points in your opinion? What makes him so over the top? And what are the things that cause this?

The reason I havent elaborated over long on Lelu is because I think his issues should be very obvious, but by all means I will do now.

1) Stats - he has a solid but not stunning statline. Mv 4, Wp 4 are his weaknesses. His statline is what you'd expect from a 7 point model, a little bit on the low side even, but not enough that it balances out his strengths.

2) Simple Traits - Nephilim. Nightmare. Woe. Black Blood. Flight. Regeneration 2. Super-companion. Lot of traits there for a 7 point model.

3) Offensive Ability - Melee Expert, Paired Claws that automatically poison with a 2/3/5 damage line and a flay trigger. Only slightly let down by his Cb being on the low side compared to a fair few models that have 6. That is hands down one of the best melee packages in the game and would not be out of place on a model worth more points. Compare this to the attacks of some expensive models, say Dead Rider with Cb 6, no paired, and a 3/4/5 damage line. Or Steamborg Executioner. Huge models that don't even approach the damage of this little 7 point guy. In addition, he has *another* attack for 0, albeit a little harder to get off, which is magical with a solid 2/3/6 line and heals him. 4 attacks in a turn for a 7 point model is... a lot. Finally, at the end of the turn; 2 automatic damage. No flip, no nothing to defend against it.

His damage is not only incredible, it is undefendable in parts and it comes from multiple sources including direct Wounds so he has no problem dealing with spirits, armour etc. All of this combines into a perfectly efficient killing machine. Very few models in Malifaux can claim effectiveness against *everything*. He also has obvious other options that I havent mentioned (Vampiric Bite), but I leave them out because he doesn't use them often. But he has the option, and more options are always good.

And his drawback? Well, sure, you need a Lilitu, who is herself an incredibly strong model. She's not particularly OP per se, but probably just undercosted by a point. Df 6 + Irresistible is a pretty tough nut to crack and requires significant resource investment. Her damage output is reasonable with chaining Double Take and her extra damage flips. And she's very mobile for objective grabbing. She's an amazing way to spend 7 points, not really a 'drawback' just more of a 'condition'. You see very few Rezzer lists run without Belles, because Lure is such a strong ability, and Lilitu is no different. If she was a completely different model, not a twin, just standalone and with access to 8 Ca lure, you'd see her played a lot so assuming you'd do something different just because you're forced to take her is a fallacy.

Even if Lilitu does die, Lelu does not suddenly become easy to kill. He has regen 2, and he heals from vamp bites. Killing Lilitu does not mean you can stop exerting pressure on Lelus due to that selfhealing, the drawback really isnt as bad as it's made out to be. In any case, the Lelus will often kill (and often in alpha-companion form) anything (or at least most things) put in front of them before they can retaliate (particularly when you consider that Neverborn have Doppelganger and Insidious Madness for winning intiative). They only really need to be on the board for one turn to seal a game in a lot of circumstances because their damage output is so incredible, so the drawback is mooted even further.

To the people who just say focus Lelu, you're playing theoryfaux. The Neverborn player should control the flow of the game with Lilitu/Dreamer/whatever so Lelu will almost always being the one doing the alpha striking. The idea is to not leave you with enough left to take them down, and even if you do, you're often taking black blood wounds as you do so. Their companion furthers this aspect, as does the Neverborn initiative control. Again, you can't hit them back if you have nothing left and even if you do, you're having to commit reactively when you've been alpha struck, and the list has more in it than just Lelu. If you do get the initiative and get the drop on a Lelu, you'd better make sure you kill him, because he'll be back on full Wd and have pushed you further into a resource disadvantage when he activates after you.

Combine all this with the lists they're in - extra mobility from Dreamer making them hypermobile, Lilith using Transposition, etc, and the general Neverborn faction card advantage (Primordial Magic, Lelu's paired, Stitched, Lilith, Zoraida), high default soulstone caches - and their effect is amplified. To quote James Doxey quoting Zvi Moshowitz, "it'd be better if it was blue and better if it was blue". As standalone models they're ott, in their crews they become very difficult to answer.

This post could be even longer and with more detail, this barely scratches the surface of how good Lelu is, but there's enough text here for now and hopefully it made sense. I'm a bit hungover and tired.

Edited by Calmdown
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I've only used the pair once and it was with the Dreamer. Many games are highly situational, and that game the only nightmare that was unburied anywhere near the enemy was Chompy himself - Lelitu lured already activated models close to Lelu, who simply ate them. I used Chompy to take out anything that got too close to them by bouncing back and forth with a couple of daydreams, and as such the pair easily kept alive even with Seamus shooting them and ripping wounds off of them. As such even though Lelu certainly can be taken down quickly, that only happens if he's exposed. With Lelitu, he doesn't really have to be. If nothing else, take Holdout and patrol the middle of the board with them, terrain allowing.

I can certainly see how Dreamer placing Lelu right next to a vulnerable target is scary, and it's certainly a nice way to trade points using Lelu to take out their biggest hitter who may just be more than 7ss in cost. I feel the reason they're seen as very powerful is simply how they combine. True, 14ss is expensive. True, Lelu and even Lelitu go down like a sack of bricks if people focus on them. However it's the ability to either pull isolated targets away in relative safety before mauling them, or mauling a target then being pulled to safety himself, that makes Lelu and his partner remarkably cost effective.

Facing two pairs and not using, say... Dreamer, is somewhat horrifying.

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Well I will weigh in for the first time with this thread.

To the recent cuddles, alps thank you for the change they needed it they still work now you just only bring 1 or 2.

Nekima cuddle was a little sad they went at her but I understand with tuco, coming out and BBS and Lelu flay. Thanks Wyrd

Now to this twins debate. I have been playing them more recently they are great yes, overpowered I don't think so. If you buy both of them they are 14ss same as the Duet which is in my opinion more survivable then them with more movement and less damage.

If you take an objective look at Lilitu she has one good spell and that is lure and she has 3 actions with a trigger. What else she do other then that she heals a little bit. She does have impure thoughts which is 4 inches and you need a suit. So she lures and heals for 7 ss and has one mild defense in irresistible. If you ever run into some Immune to Influence there are more then you think there are. So fore 7 ss I think she is a little overcosted and can be useless in situations. I love her for board control. Remember that a Belle no trigger no healing but 4ss and much harder to kill.

Now we come to Lelu, obviously we look at it compared to the young because of the 1 point difference. Well they have the same amount of attacks, pure damage is better for the young by one better moderate and the young has better combat, Lelu has paired to make up for the lower combat and poison making for a better damage. The bite is also very good if you have a crow. Then other changes is you can heal well put damage out in resolves effects. Better then the young I would say so but normally young cost 4 not 6. Worth 7 points yes worth 8 probubly but the other half of the twins is probably 6. That is because you take away his 2 biggest drawbacks might be worth 9 to go with teddy and corpelious.

I see complaints with the dreamer and I understand them I love playing him but I know where his issues lay but don't want to get into that at the moment, the reason I mention him though is when I bring the dreamer I only bring Lelu and not Lilitu because I am going to be buried so I am not taking wounds early and I will be placed next to a target so even if I die quicker I will still get 2-3 turns before the one more damage kills me over opponents models.

With Z I bring both because they work great for her in drawing in killing then moving onto the next. Worth 14 points there yes worth 15-16 maybe probably not.

With Lilith, I take both again if I go with that list because I lure in and murder again but I murder with young normally. Again worth 14 yes worth more probably not.

I don't play pandora(hate models) so can't comment I think Lilitu is better for her.

In conclusion could they be 8-6 yes but then you might just summon one if you went 9-6 then you would always just summon the other one. I can't think of any rules you could change other then same force but that makes them them.

Edit (Double Ninjaed while typing.)

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Yes, but there's the rub, you HAVE to take Lelu out in one go or he will be healed close to full. That's one if the reasons why I don't buy the whole "Nightmares are Glass Cannons" argument. Lelu's dmg out is amazing. I'm tempted to say it is even better than Chompy's, but I think Chompy's ability to use SS puts him over the edge.

Personally I find Malifaux has much in common with the CCGs I used to love to play, and one of the ways you could tell if something needed fixing was that when something was released, did it begin appearing in every single deck that had the option to take it? There are obviously a few exceptions to this general trend, but if an option is so effective it is always chosen it might be time to re-look at them.

Now I realize the twins most likely don't show up in every NB list, but I will say that since I've been playing I've not once played against a NB that didn't have at least one of the pair in their list, (in the Case of Zoraida) or both for all other masters, (full disclaimer I haven't played against Pandora as of yet), and they show up in about 99% of all NB lists I've read online. They are as close to auto-include models as I've seen. If they were mercenaries I'd put them in just about every resser list I put together even if I had to pay an extra 2SS for each of them (Fair disclaimer again, I only have Kirai and Seamus as masters).

I think in the case of the twins Wyrd might have gone a wee bit far in how good they are. Consider this, if Wyrd releases another melee monster model for the NB whatever it is is going to have to be better than Lelu to even get put into lists from this point out. It is a case with most miniatures games and the source of the "power creep" that many players so dread, but in order to drive sales there has to be a reason to take a particular option over the ones that have come before. Lelu is so very amazing I'm somewhat nervous about what could be introduced that would be a better choice than him.

I have my thoughts about Lilitu as well, I think she's out of whack as well, but I don't really want to continue on this route. I personally think one of the better fixes, if Wyrd eventually wants to, would be to remove the twisted thoughts abilities from both of them, but give them something similar to the Vickies where you might have the option to have something that affects one of them affect both of them. It is the auto dmg and auto healing I think personally that pushes them way OTT.

(As a postscript I do enjoy discussing things with Karn even if I don't always agree with him, and hope he continues these discussions)

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Nope, it works. I have a year+ of games that show it does. I think you over estimate your neverborn "alpha strike" and board control.

It does work it is harder against the dreamer because of the movement but ya its easy to knock out 9 wounds on a df 5 model.

Loving this back and forth though from everybody. Also the biggest issue at the moment of people going against the Dreamer is living models are normally just hosed vs the dreamer, Just to much Terrifying.

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Nope, it works. I have a year+ of games that show it does. I think you over estimate your neverborn "alpha strike" and board control.

Maybe I do.

I can't speak for Lelus played by players who's skill level I don't know, but I'm going to stand by my 100% win ratio with Neverborn so far as being fairly indicative that I know what I'm doing, and there's very few (no?) lists that have managed to do what you're telling me is the easy solution to Lelu.

This is kind of like the other Dreamer thread; you're saying the model is fine if you focus it. You seem to be under the assumption that a good player is going to let you focus it.

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