Tying the Riders to the Horsemen

[Alviaran]

Somewhat bored as I work on my Dead Rider here so I got to thinking (a dangerous enough proposition). Wanted to hear the thoughts of the forumites with regards to this. But to kick things off, my own musings...

Ok, to start off to clear things up, there are the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse. We have all at least heard of them. They are, with some of their traditional trappings:

Conquest - White horse, depicted with a bow

War - Red horse, wielding a sword

Famine - Black horse, carries a set of scales

Death - Pale/Green horse, has no emblem of office, but is followed by Hades

Pestilence is a misinterpretation. Actually, what is commonly seen as pestilence is more often a part of Death actually.

So, it seems we have the completion of the Rider cycle in Malifaux (even though the last models are not yet out). The obvious question here is who is who. These are my guesses. And my misgivings.

War = Hooded - This seems obvious. Big ol' sword. A mount which is usually red given the model is lacking skin.

Conquest = Mechanical - The chain spear seems the most analogous to the bow. Not to mention, since war and conquest can be so interlinked, the cavalry saber seems an appropriate secondary weapon.

Death = Pale - Given his obvious name as the Pale Rider and his Chasing Death, he seems to fit. However, his rifle does fit the idea of a modern bow much better than the Mechanical's chain spear.

Famine = Dead - Really kind of a last choice. Though I really dislike this one.

Not tying the Dead Rider, with his scythe and pale horse in the artwork, to Death just seems wrong. Though his fluff DOES mention raids on caravans, which would cause prices to increase. Which in turn is one of the identifying characteristics of Famine since he is actually heralded with a proclamation about the cost of basic goods going up (famine obviously caused by the lack of goods being avaiilable). Which leads to my second idea:

War = Hooded

Conquest = Pale

Death = Dead

Famine = Mechanical

But then I'm left not liking the Mechanical/Famine pairing. They just don't seem to fit. Though I will point out that in the artwork, the horse colour matches up this way.

And then finally, where does ol' Leveticus fit into this all? His Avatar is the Fifth Rider. Is he meant to be Hades, who followed Death? That's my current theory anyway.

I will point out for random note, that all four Riders total 35ss. And I believe Leveticus is the only Master who can hire all four, which is pretty cool how neatly the numbers work out.

So what are your ideas? Do you agree with either of my setups? Have your own? I want to know! I seriously want to figure out what is either the official (if there is one) or most logical setup because that is going to dictate how I paint my Riders.

[CrouchingMoose]

I will point out for random note, that all four Riders total 35ss. And I believe Leveticus is the only Master who can hire all four, which is pretty cool how neatly the numbers work out.

I agree with your second one just because it seems to fit better and while the Rider "Death" is not described as carrying a symbol, he is typically depicted as carrying a scythe throughout most of art and other literature.

As for Leveticus taking all 4 with him, the problem with doing this at 35 points is that you can't take the Avatar form and you have no cache, personally its better to drop one of the riders and summon it after the Avatar hits the field. IIRC you could swing it to take all but the 10ss rider(cant remember which one) and take alyce (if shes 8ss) and the avatar

[Hoyled]

Just my thought

Hooded=War- big guy with a giant broadsword. About as War like as it gets visually.

Dead=Death- Maybe a bit more Grim Reaper inspired then the original Greek.

The last 2 I honestly flip flop between, they dont seem to fit well one way or the other.

A. Levi seems godly enough, 12 damage attacks earn that title. Plus he can summon that one rider you couldnt take since the avatar costs 2 points.

[Ratty]

Are you sure that the riders aren't

Hooded Rider - Red Rider

Dead Rider - Black Rider

Pale Rider - White Rider

Mechanical - Something else.

[Alviaran]

I agree with your second one just because it seems to fit better and while the Rider "Death" is not described as carrying a symbol, he is typically depicted as carrying a scythe throughout most of art and other literature.

Hence my misgiving about the first setup. Like you said, while he doesn't carry a symbol, he is commonly seen as carrying a scythe, even in later artwork within the Christian tradition depicting the Four Horsemen.

As for Leveticus taking all 4 with him, the problem with doing this at 35 points is that you can't take the Avatar form and you have no cache, personally its better to drop one of the riders and summon it after the Avatar hits the field. IIRC you could swing it to take all but the 10ss rider(cant remember which one) and take alyce (if shes 8ss) and the avatar

Hm. Good point. I still find it funny at 35 that they work out so perfectly. Now, at 40, you have room for a Canine Remains and the Avatar...

Are you sure that the riders aren't

Hooded Rider - Red Rider

Dead Rider - Black Rider

Pale Rider - White Rider

Mechanical - Something else.

What do you mean? The horses are Red, White, Black, Pale/Green.

[Ratty]

What do you mean? The horses are Red, White, Black, Pale/Green.

Ahh.... maybe I shouldn't say anything else.

[Q'iq'el]

I don't see why Mechanical wouldn't fit Conquest in this particular interpretation. Isn't technology the humanity's means to conquer the nature?

And isn't a mechanical horse pretty solid case for a symbolic conquest of nature by the technology?

[Alviaran]

I don't see why Mechanical wouldn't fit Conquest in this particular interpretation. Isn't technology the humanity's means to conquer the nature?

And isn't a mechanical horse pretty solid case for a symbolic conquest of nature by the technology?

But on the other side of the coin, wouldn't replacing your horse with a mechanical one be a good symbolism for famine? As in, you cannot even manage to feed your horse anymore so you just made a new one?

Ratty, is this late Twisting Fates? I'm just past the Avatars section right now. Have one Rider on the painting desk and another in the mail (he was missed on the order). And after getting through Leveticus, this got me to thinking. I already decided these four are getting special bases and paint schemes. They won't match any other parts of the collection.

I just love the whole Four Horsemen motif. My friend and I just started Malifaux and we are kind of exploring things right now. But we both know we are going to do Leveticus at some point. When the Henchman at Gencon told us about the whole Fifth Rider thing, it caught both of us.

[Q'iq'el]

But on the other side of the coin, wouldn't replacing your horse with a mechanical one be a good symbolism for famine? As in, you cannot even manage to feed your horse anymore so you just made a new one?

Sorry, but sounds like a bit of a stretch to me. Not saying that wasn't the idea behind the model, but the other one seems to be far more entrenched in our culture, so more natural a choice. The associations tend to go along customary paths and conquering the nature with technology is an image as old as ironclads and first steam powered machinery, if not older than that - i.e. a somewhat obvious association to make.

That is of course not to say that Wyrd had this on mind or that it is the correct way of thinking in this case. It just seems as obvious association to me as Hooder Rider -> War. Indeed, even more obvious than that.

Consider also, that Resurrectionists theme is not death, but rather the struggle against death and decay. Their rider may be the Death Rider, but the struggle between life and death does fit the imagery of Famine pretty well (with emaciated bodies and bloated bellies of people clinging to their lives by threads). And the miniature itself fits the image to a degree, doesn't it?

As far as collecting all four of them, I'm not sure. I may get the Mechanical one, as he seems an easy way to enlarge Colette crew by quite a bit... and it won't fall behind. I've been considering Dead Rider for quite some time, but I can't fit him in my Nicodem crew and the model is a bit too expensive for my taste as a mere collective piece.

Hooded Rider I originally wanted a lot, but then there were so many cool & big Nephilim models to get, he had fallen way down the list.

In other words, I'll probably end up with Mechanical Rider alone.

Edited September 27, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[Alviaran]

Dead Rider is a no brainer for me. Ever since one of those helpful Henchmen at the con put this one idea into my head, I want to do it, just because. (Pass Beyond on the Dead Rider) Other reasons as well such as pulling things off of objectives and giving me a beatstick. The Mechanical is probably the only one I don't see a reason for me to get beyond Leveticus. I don't have plans to play any Arcanist crews except maybe a Collette one just for kicks.

I think whichever one ends up being Famine though is likely to get a little conversion work to include a set of scales somehow. Either held by the rider or hanging from the horse's bit potentially.

Part of this is also because I have chopped off that little rock underneath the one foot of the Dead Rider sitting on my table right now. As it is, he is supported by a brass pin into his one and only foot contacting the ground and being run through the resin base. I am trying to decide what might be a good way to reinforce it via green stuff, something to fit the theme of this Horseman. Though I guess famine and death can both include some kind of "energy" coming from where he is impacting the earth, killing whatever is there (brown grass faded to green grass away from his hoof to hide whatever additional support I give him is another idea).

I'm trying to figure this out so I can get him painted with the next round of additions to my Kirai crew, because I am finding I just do not pack the punch I wish I did outside of my Shikome (Shikome #2 is part of this batch as well).

[Ratty]

Have you also considered that the White Horse wasn't always known as Pestilence. Famine and Pestilence was originally the same horseman on the Black Horse.

Originally the White horse was Conquest, does that fit the Guild more?

[BlueStar86]

I kind of get the impression that Levi and his riders are going against the coming apocalypse, like a defense system put in place by the old leaders of Malifaux. They rose up before the vast majority of the Tyrants could resurrect themselves, because there is much work to be done, in order to bring them down. I wouldn't be too surprised if they came to the aid of Criid.

[Alviaran]

Have you also considered that the White Horse wasn't always known as Pestilence. Famine and Pestilence was originally the same horseman on the Black Horse.

Originally the White horse was Conquest, does that fit the Guild more?

I actually already said that in the OP because otherwise I would expect someone to go, "But the Horsemen are War, Death, Famine and Pestilence. Where are you getting this Conquest guy?" And also why in my second possible setup, I think the Pale Rider, despite his name, might be Conquest because of his weapon.

[96p]

War = Hooded

Conquest = Mechanical

Famine = Pale (just look at the Model )

Death = Dead (scythe...)

[sephiroa]

War = Hooded

Conquest = Mechanical

Famine = Pale (just look at the Model )

Death = Dead (scythe...)

could be, but I think mechanical and pale could be switched,

conquest has a bow, pale is the only rider with only a range weapon,

[sephiroa]

the one thing we are very sure of is that war is the hooded rider

death,, how he looks and how death is discribed, its more pale (death sometimes has a scyte, not always, but always is a "pale" rider), from faction, its dead rider.

conquest, how he looks and is discribed, could be pale, or mechanical, faction, pale

famine: well, I don't know any of them, but i think mechanical could be it,

[LoboStele]

Yeah, I tend to think of it as:

War = Hooded

Death = Dead

Conquest = Pale

Famine = Mechanical (this mostly based on the black horse artwork)

Also, on the terms of balance, the Mechanical Rider is holding both the axe-like weapon and a sword, so the rider is having to balance on the horse without using their hands. LOL, I know, it's a stretch.

[sephiroa]

Yeah, I tend to think of it as:

War = Hooded

Death = Dead

Conquest = Pale

Famine = Mechanical (this mostly based on the black horse artwork)

Also, on the terms of balance, the Mechanical Rider is holding both the axe-like weapon and a sword, so the rider is having to balance on the horse without using their hands. LOL, I know, it's a stretch.

i agree on the mechanical and famine part

[Darg]

Well based on the fluff description the Pale rider fits with Death. Everything in there is about how he is drawn to people dying.

Hooded's description fits with War. Unrestrained slaughter etc.

I think the Dead Rider's fluff could fit with famine at a bit of a stretch. He spends all his time raiding caravans, stealing stuff and thus creating a shortage. Seems a bit more supported tham the others.

Leaving Mechanical for conquest. Again not hugely supported in the fluff but it does seem to be the only one actively supporting its factions interests.

[dsmiles]

No, the Pale Rider is clearly the Pale Rider.

[Alviaran]

No, the Pale Rider is clearly the Pale Rider.

Nothing is telling me that he wasn't already one of the Four Horsemen.

[nilus]

What do you mean? The horses are Red, White, Black, Pale/Green.

I think he means you should look at other myths involving riders IE knights. Do a google search on Baba Yaga's knights.

White like the bright new sun, Black like the dark of night, and red like the mid day sun.

the Pale/Green is problematic in fitting with the legend but its Malifaux so things like that can altered.

I think people are trying to shove the Riders just in the the biblical Riders of the Apocalypse when Malifaux has a habit of mixing up several pieces of legend and folk lore(look at Seamus as a great example of that)

[Sliver Chocobo]

My thoughts is this

The hooded rider is conquest, the first rider and he has a sword like conquest

Second should be War, but I think the dead rider has more in common with Famine than War

Third is War or the mechanical Rider, who looks the most blood thirsty or the riders and has two weapons one and which is a sword like War

The pale rider I believe to be pestilence, often shown with a bow or a gun

Finally death or Leveticus, who is only one that can be death, since death is the leader and has the abilities of the other horseman

[Ratty]

I think he means you should look at other myths involving riders IE knights. Do a google search on Baba Yaga's knights.

White like the bright new sun, Black like the dark of night, and red like the mid day sun.

the Pale/Green is problematic in fitting with the legend but its Malifaux so things like that can altered.

I think people are trying to shove the Riders just in the the biblical Riders of the Apocalypse when Malifaux has a habit of mixing up several pieces of legend and folk lore(look at Seamus as a great example of that)

Yay someone got my refererence.

They seem to fit better.. only 3 riders appear to Zoraida.

If you work on the assumption that the Pale and Death Riders are white and black(day and night). Then the Hooded is the Red Rider, which makes a lot of sense. He represents the Sun and has an ability called Chase the Sun, and his sword shows the path of the sun across the sky.

I do think the Riders have taken a lot of imagery from the 4 riders of the apocalypse, but have more in common with Baba Yaga servents.

That really leaves you with the question what is the Mechanical Rider. I have theories on that, but can't be sure.. lets see what comes up.

[Sliver Chocobo]

The red rider War, not only represents war, but more specifically civil war, as in the Arcanist rising up against the Guild