Blast damage type

[Therril_83]

A question came up in our game a few days ago.

short version: does blast markers inherit the types of the ability that caused them?

examples: If I shoot with a gun that triggers a blast, will that damage retain it's Ranged Strike-type aswell as being blasts, and therefore being reduced both by Bulletproof and Evasive talents?

Same thing with a Melee Strike that causes a blast, will that trigger effects that only trigger from taking melee damage, ex Black Blood?

[Q'iq'el]

Why would it? Is there any indication in the Rules Manual that it would?

Generally speaking, you have a strike which deals direct damage to its target. It may be ranged or melee. Then you have blast which deals blast damage to the models affected. It is not a part of the initial attack, it is an effect of initial attack. That's why these Blasts don't inherit bonuses to damages either.

[Turbodog]

Related point that came up in a game of mine...

Is blast damage generated from spells considered "magic" damage - for purposes of spirit's damage reduction?

[Q'iq'el]

Related point that came up in a game of mine...

Is blast damage generated from spells considered "magic" damage - for purposes of spirit's damage reduction?

I'd say yes.

This works, in my understanding, like this:

A spell, a ranged spell, a strike or a ranged strike may have multiple effects.

One of them is direct damage you flip for. You may boost it with damage boosting triggers (i.e. Flay) or by secondary flip from Red Joker, for example.

One of them may be blast damage. This is always one stage lower than the direct damage and cannot be boosted.

There may be other special effects of the spell or weapon involved.

All those still come from the original attack, so if attack was magic, they are magic.

There's no reason to suspect they are the same type of effect though - direct damage is of the same type as the attack (ranged, melee or none), blast damage is blast damage.

If you take a look at Decay, for example, all the friendly undead models hit with the spell heal 2 Wd. As far as I know, it is played so that every friendly undead caught in the blast will heal 2 Wd - that's because these models are still considered to be hit by the spell - through the blast effect.

Hopefuly I'm right, as I've been playing it that way for a very long time.

[Tograth]

Yup, the guys have it. The initial target gains any applicable armor due to the target type, so bulletproof for ranged strikes, magic resistant for Spells, etc. Note that they do not get evasive if they are the initial target, as they aren't actually getting hit by blasts, everyone else is

Against the blasts themselves, you get basic armor, evasive armor and magic resistance (if its a spell). These also cut through spirit if it was a spell that generated the blasts.

One thing to note is that blasts can never trigger triggers, and do not boost damage, so Bite of Winter etc do not work on blasts (although they work just fine on the initial target).

[Therril_83]

I reasoned out this way of looking at it, please comment if you think it hits the spot or if it's way off in some way.

If you separate things into "Source of Damage" (henceforth SoD) and "Damage Type" (DT), you could in this case argue that when an effect causes enough damage to generate blasts, the damage from those blasts have a new SoD but they inherit the same DT.

an example: Rasputina casts December's Curse on a target. When it does damage, SoD is a ranged strike spell, triggering Bulletproof, and DT is magical so also triggering Magical resistance. If the damage was high enough, it results in Blast Markers coming into effect. When they do damage, the damage's SoD is Blast, so triggers Evasive (but not Bulletproof), but it inherits the DT of December's Curse being a spell so is still magical and triggers Magical Resistance.

[Crispus]

If an attack is a ranged attack then all damage effects caused by that attack are caused by a ranged attack.

The blast is in this case an effect used for distributing damage. The attack causing the blast(s) is still a ranged attack and will trigger bulletproof for all modells affected by the attack.

The fact that blasts does not get the same bonuses that the "direct" damage does is not connected to the attack type but to requirements regarding the target of the attack. Bulletproof has no such requirements.

[Akujie]

Crispus, so your saying bulletproof should effect ranged attack blasts?

[Crispus]

Crispus, so your saying bulletproof should effect ranged attack blasts?

Yes, if a blast is part of the damage caused by a ranged attack.

One attack can have several effects (including different damage effects). All of these effects still come the same attack, regardless of how the effect itself is "generated".

Edited September 21, 2011 by Crispus

[Therril_83]

Yes, if a blast is part of the damage caused by a ranged attack.

One attack can have several effects (including different damage effects). All of these effects still come the same attack, regardless of how the effect itself is "generated".

I can understand your reasoning too, it is quite similar to one of my gaming group, and I don't really object to it, I just don't see either way supported by the rules.

I can't find solid argument in the rules book that says either that a blast does inherit the trait from it's source, nor one that truly says it doesn't. It's somewhat of a dark corner of the rules as far as I can read it.

I just find blasts being described more as their own damage source than as a child source. It does relate to the damage flip, yes, but it does not relate to the source of the damage flip as I see it.

I'm really fishing for someone to come with either a really solid argument, or a marshal's badge..

[Crispus]

I think my argument is solid. There is nothing in the rules that says that a blast is a new attack generated by the original attack. A blast is part of the original attack (since it's listed as an effect of that attack) and therefore has the properties of that attack (such as melee, ranged and/or magical).

I can understand your reasoning too, it is quite similar to one of my gaming group, and I don't really object to it, I just don't see either way supported by the rules.

Sounds like an awesome dude. He just might be me.

[Headcase2]

I follow your reasoning and see where you're coming from, but ultimately it's incorrect. The rules work as follows:

• Bullet Proof works against a direct hits from a ranged attack. That's anything with a icon.
  
• Evasive works against damage from , regardless of what caused the 50 mm template to be placed.
  
• Magic Resistant works against damage generated by spells (whether from the direct hit or blasts generated by the spell). This does not protect against magic weapons!
  
• Armor works against any source of damage.
  
• Object works against any wounds the model suffers.
  

I hope this breakdown helps.

[Crispus]

• Bullet Proof works against a direct hits from a ranged attack. That's anything with a icon.
  

Why do you assume that bulletproof only works against a direct hit? I can't find anything in the rules manual that support this.

Bulletproof provides protection against a specific type of attack (defined on pg 18 in RM), not against a specific type of damage effect.

[Q'iq'el]

Crispus is right that Bulletproof's wording specifically seems to have wider application than any of the other such abilities (except for Armor, of course which applies to everything).

[Therril_83]

Doesn't seem like we're getting this resolved in here. I find this another dark little corner of the rules where no light reaches.

I guess we'll continue to play it your way, Crispus, as that was what we chose last game. And hope for an FAQ to clear it up at some point.

[Eyespy]

• Armor works against any source of damage.
  
• Object works against any wounds the model suffers.
  

Wait... damage and wounds are mutually exclusive?

EDIT: Turns out they are, rules manual Page 44

Edited September 22, 2011 by Eyespy

[Hatchethead]

Wait... damage and wounds are mutually exclusive?

Yup. Two entirely different things.

[Stern]

Why do you assume that bulletproof only works against a direct hit?

bulletproof provides #armour against ranged attacks... a blast is not a ranged attack it is a blast marker and deals damage to everyone beneath it.

Damage from a ranged strike is determined and dealt and deducted via bulletproof etc... and then you place the blast markers which inflict damage to any model beneath them and inflicts blast damage equal to one bracket lower

[Hatchethead]

Ranged, melee, blast, auras and pulses are all mutually exclusive, distinct types of attacks, even if a ranged attack creates a blast attack. Magical, on the other hand, is a game term applied loosely across numerous aspects of the game; all forms of attacks/damage, spells, etc.

I do agree that a magical ranged attack creating a blast attack does in fact create a magical blast attack. But the blast attack doesn't somehow retain it's ranged properties. It stopped being ranged the minute it struck the initial target and exploded.

Edited September 23, 2011 by Hatchethead

[Stern]

Agreed hatchet... I can see where confusion erupts, and things misinterpreted, think we need a Marshal to Confirm it one way or another...

Hate having to call on those guys, dragging them away from busy schedules...

... *gets out cookies while continuing to mumble on*

[Hatchethead]

Sorry Stern, I ninja deleted and reposted. Um, assuming you still agree with what I've said, it's all good.

[Stern]

Sorry Stern, I ninja deleted and reposted. Um, assuming you still agree with what I've said, it's all good.

Still agree.. rules seem pretty clear and make logical sense too

[Q'iq'el]

Ranged, melee, blast, auras and pulses are all mutually exclusive, distinct types of attacks, even if a ranged attack creates a blast attack. Magical, on the other hand, is a game term applied loosely across numerous aspects of the game; all forms of attacks/damage, spells, etc.

This is not spelled out in the Rules Manual though. This is just our custom.

There are two types of attack: Ranged () and Melee (). Pages 39~41.

There are three types of AoE effects: Pulses, Auras and Blasts. Pages 20~21.

During an attack ( or ) Blasts are merely affecting the damage type, not an attack type. Page 46.

So no, those aren't mutually exclusive damage types or attack types. Those are apples and oranges - Attack types and Area effect types.

I think Crispus interpretation is right. A ranged Attack does Direct Damage and can have Blast Damage but both these effects come from the same type of attack.

Now if you go to page 115 and check out the damage reducing abilities, they are *NOT* the same:

Armor -> Reduces all Dg, so it deals with effects and is cumulative with other types of armor.

Bulletproof -> Gives Armor against Dg coming from Attacks. It's specifically worded to affect Attacks of this type, regardless of the type of the Effect.

Evasive -> Gives Armor against Dg coming from :blasts. It's specifically worded to affect Damage Effects of certain type, regardless of the type of Attack.

Magic Resistant -> Gives Armor vs. Spells and Spell effects. It's specifically worded to affect damage coming from certain Sources of Damage, regardless of type of Damage Effect or type of Attack.

As you can see every single of these Abilities is different. They can all stack (because they give Armor, and Armor is cumulative by definition).

A Blast caused by a ranged spell means a Magic Resistant, Evasive and Bulletproof model will get extra Armor from all 3 abilities... and it will stack with the basic Armor ability if it still has it.

Edited September 23, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[tadaka]

I find it odd some think magic should carry over but not ranged attack. Feals a little i pick how i like it.

[Q'iq'el]

I find it odd some think magic should carry over but not ranged attack. Feals a little i pick how i like it.

Yup. Magic is a source of damage type. Ranged is attack type. If effect affects type of damage (regardless of source or attack type), like Evasive does, it stacks on top of the other such effects.

It seems perfectly possible to have all 4 types of armor applied to one attack (blast caused by a spell based ranged attack), as long as there is a model who has all 4 types of armor abilities (custom creation, I guess. )

[Hatchethead]

I have nothing more to add, really. We can argue interpretation until the sun goes dark. As has been said, we require a Marshal or a dev to clarify the intention.