Alp Bomb, Mark 2

[Calmdown]

I think the alp bomb's power level is much greater in conjunction with not being prepared for it. IE in a tournament when you dont know what your opponenets playing, you either set up to deal with the bomb and have a good chance if the opponent uses it, or you set up for something else, and wind up getting screwed by it.

Arguably. But a real alp bomb needs so many Alps that strat/scheme completion with 'board presence' requirements (such as destroy evidence, treasure hunt, etc) a lot harder.

In games where Chompy doesn't go Rambo and kill everything, and your crew needs to play a larger part, you can find yourself struggling for killing power and board presence against good lists.

Also bear in mind that an Alp bomb does precisely nothing against any list that effectively move its miniatures around. The "if you're not set up to deal with an Alp bomb" thing is a double edged sword; Alps are also very bad against lots of setups, and given the amount of investment needed to make a real bomb (probably 5 Alps minimum) you can put yourself in a bad situation.

The thing I'm finding is, that a lot of Dreamer lists out there that people think are good are actually pretty damn bad. The problem is, that Chompy is SO good, that as long as your flips/fate hand dont go especially poorly, he can cover for all manner of bad lists and bad play.

As usual I'm not suggesting that Dreamer is anything less than the best master in the game, but I'm certainly starting to find the holes he does have, and what I consider the 'common' Dreamer lists I actually think are pretty bad lists all things considered. And as far as relevance to this thread goes, that includes Alps in a lot of situations.

[Guy in Suit]

As usual I'm not suggesting that Dreamer is anything less than the best master in the game, but I'm certainly starting to find the holes he does have, and what I consider the 'common' Dreamer lists I actually think are pretty bad lists all things considered. And as far as relevance to this thread goes, that includes Alps in a lot of situations.

Dreamer

DayDream x3

Alp x3

Coppelius x1

Stitched Together x2

6 ss cache

This is the list I always see - and I think it is pretty effing ridiculous. What lists are you seeing that you think are bad?

[Fetid Strumpet]

One of the bigger issues with Alps though is the control mechanic which frankly I think was a mistake to put into the game as strongly as Wyrd has, particularly with the NB. Alps aren't just strong, because in numbers they are exceptionally strong, I think the main reason they are hated so much is that once you are caught in it you can't do anything about it. I'm not certain I agree with Calmdown's analysis that the Alp list is really bad and that Chompy really just covers up the cracks, because in a properly used Alp bomb you kill or neutralize your opponents crew in the first three turns, then have three full turns to achieve anything else non-combat oriented you needed to do.

The fact is that we can discuss ways to combat the alp bomb to our hearts content and in my opinion it is a waste of time. I think this because:

#1: Unless you are playing a friendly game you are not going to know the bomb is comming, so discussing things to do about it in a vacuum is pointless as you won't even know what crew yourself will have to attempt to deal with it.

#2: (And this might be the point Calmdown was making about how good Chompy is) Even if he brings an Alp list and you have brought the dedicated perfect 100% tactical counter to the bomb and are ready to use it, The Dreamer can win games without using the crew he brought specifically. What I mean by that is that if he brings an Alp bomb, he can still win without having to use the Alps as bombs. If The Dreamer determines yo have too good a shot at just taking his bomb out, and his strat and schemes allow he can just use them as a swarm of significant models. Because of their Tarnkap and ability to hide behind terrain because of Ht1 they are going to be very difficult to take out from range, and there will be alot of them, so in order to deny them objectives you are going to have to go after them and it will take a good number of activations to do it. While you are attempting to do so the Dreamer will be taking bites out of the edges of your formation with Chompy, and because of the number of Alps on the board can essentially pull a variant of Kirai's tactics and just out activate you before swooping in with Chompy.

[Calmdown]

#1: Unless you are playing a friendly game you are not going to know the bomb is comming, so discussing things to do about it in a vacuum is pointless as you won't even know what crew yourself will have to attempt to deal with it.

#2: (And this might be the point Calmdown was making about how good Chompy is) Even if he brings an Alp list and you have brought the dedicated perfect 100% tactical counter to the bomb and are ready to use it, The Dreamer can win games without using the crew he brought specifically. What I mean by that is that if he brings an Alp bomb, he can still win without having to use the Alps as bombs. If The Dreamer determines yo have too good a shot at just taking his bomb out, and his strat and schemes allow he can just use them as a swarm of significant models. Because of their Tarnkap and ability to hide behind terrain because of Ht1 they are going to be very difficult to take out from range, and there will be alot of them, so in order to deny them objectives you are going to have to go after them and it will take a good number of activations to do it. While you are attempting to do so the Dreamer will be taking bites out of the edges of your formation with Chompy, and because of the number of Alps on the board can essentially pull a variant of Kirai's tactics and just out activate you before swooping in with Chompy.

Both were definitely parts of what I was getting at, but there was more.

I was not saying that Alps are not great, but I was getting at the fact that Alps have a major weakness and that is that you sacrifice board presence to bring them.

Also, the reverse of #1 applies to the Dreamer player; Alps are weaker (that is - not weak - but more on par with 'normal' models) against a lot of lists that they just dont have the ability to affect or that have perfect ways to deal with them. What I'm getting at is that Alps do have weaknesses that you can exploit, like any other minion. What I'm secondarily getting at, is that often Alps may seem like they're overpowered because the Dreamer is overpowered; pretty much anything you pair with Dreamer/Chompy is going to be even better by virtue of being there with them.

I appreciate that this is all a bit unqualified and ill explained because I'm trying to do it without a massive wall of text; I'm saving the wall of text for the tactica.

It's definitely worthwhile discussing ways to beat Alps, but I think people often forget a basic of tactics:

A tactic that relies on your opponent playing badly is not a tactic at all

Most posts in this and similar threads, as Strumpet talks about in his point #2, assume that your opponent is simply going to *let* you use various counter tactics. The prime example of this is "just AE them".

And this ended up being long anyway, haha.

Edited September 14, 2011 by Calmdown

[karn987]

One of the bigger issues with Alps though is the control mechanic which frankly I think was a mistake to put into the game as strongly as Wyrd has

No test is perfect, things are missed all the time. Think about the sheer volume of information coming in at both the Testers and Devs... it quickly becomes overwhelming and things do slip through. Not trying to make an excuse for anything, meerly trying to point out some perspective. We'll see in time what Wyrd makes of it at least, they've not let us down yet.

but I'm certainly starting to find the holes he does have, and what I consider the 'common' Dreamer lists I actually think are pretty bad lists all things considered. And as far as relevance to this thread goes, that includes Alps in a lot of situations.

The rabbit hole goes even deeper Calmdown, but what your saying now certainly lines up with whats been said in the past. While the Alp bombs are effective, they certainly lack in many important ways. Discovering and exploiting those are the key to topling it.

I was not saying that Alps are not great, but I was getting at the fact that Alps have a major weakness and that is that you sacrifice board presence to bring them.

Yup that is certainly a big part of it, and in an often objective based game like Malifaux this can be a huge loss. Especially when the bomb fails or is countered, that board presence loss hurts a lot.

What I'm getting at is that Alps do have weaknesses that you can exploit, like any other minion. What I'm secondarily getting at, is that often Alps may seem like they're overpowered because the Dreamer is overpowered; pretty much anything you pair with Dreamer/Chompy is going to be even better by virtue of being there with them.

The partial change of tone is nice to see. Several of us have tried to explain over and over again the weakness of Alps and the Alp bomb but it fell on deaf ears. It looks like it just took you seeing it yourself. I'm eager to see what you have to say when you get done with your piece, I'm honestly extremely interested where your experience will lead you with it.

But you are correct, the Dreamer dirrectly makes up for what his Nightmares are lacking and presents a tactical style of play some players don't know how to handle and most crews don't handle well. At the same time, his eligance can be used in a brutal way and turned into a hammer rather then a scalpel... and this is where I think the Dreamer becomes over the top.

A tactic that relies on your opponent playing badly is not a tactic at all

True, but misdirrection, manipulation, and messing with your opponents head (Im sure there is a more technical term for it) are all viable tactics. A lot of these "oppoent playing badly" tactics your commenting on, are actually based off of those concepts. It is not a simple matter of "letting them", but rather shifting things into a situation where you can. *points to quote in his signature* There's no good way to teach or even explain this to someone. It's a way of thinking and a way of playing that has to be learned and developed.

Edited September 14, 2011 by karn987

[011121]

Here's the impression I get-

the Dreamer is normally a trapdoor spider basically. he pounces on any place you are weak bringing out an overwhelming amount of force, then retreats in short order to hit the next target. The usual response to such a tactic is not separate up but keep forces together and capable of covering each other.

Consequently if the dreamer has something that makes clumping together impossible then you;re in a no win situation simply choosing to be killed piecemeal or all at once. Terrify has some potential as a anti-big group power but only against some forces, it is impotent against others. This is somewhat balanced

On the other hand the Alps make clumping effectively suicide, and there's no construct type that's reasonably common and yet laughs them off.

To make matters worse the Dreamer can potentially launch such an assault on the first activation, meaning your game may be effectively lost based on your deployment with no chance to recover.

And finally, while the dreamer I think is designed for the trap door spider routine, he really doesn't seem to need it. Far from being glass cannons his forces are pretty solidly constructed steel cannons. The supposed fragility of nightmares is hard to see, given the in built ability to heal (copellius, LCB), the ability to paralyze (copellius, copellius, and copellius), the ability to terrify, potential immunity to ranged fire (stitched and everyone behind them), and on and on. Their ability to control when you even get to attack them is simply overwhelming.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Karn that's exactly the point. If the Dreamer could only be used as a scalpel he would still be excessively strong, on par with Kirai since that is all she is, but you don't have to use him as a Scalpel you can easily within the rules use him as a sledgehammer. There is no responsibility on the player in a competitive setting to set self limits on what or how he will use his crew, other than within the limits of what the rules allow.

To say

his eligance can be used in a brutal way and turned into a hammer rather then a scalpel... and this is where I think the Dreamer becomes over the top.

to me sounds like your argument is that the Dreamer is balanced because of the self-imposed limits a sportsman playing the The Dreamer would restrict himself to.

Also you said that

the Dreamer dirrectly makes up for what his Nightmares are lacking and presents a tactical style of play some players don't know how to handle and most crews don't handle well.

emphasis mine. You seem to admit that the Dreamer is OP or at least has the potential to be stronger than other crews at least. If most crews in the game don't handle what he can do well how does that not equate to an unreasonable edge in power before the game even starts.

If we were to sit down with a hypothetical group of malifaux novices and only show them book one and make no reference to anything that has come out in book 2 or 3. Then, once they had gotten solid on how to play the game, ask them what their impressions of what balance was on a potential master that was going to be introduced who could take a crew with the very real potential to wipe out an opposing crew on the first turn, in that opponents own deployment zone, I wonder what their thoughts on wether that constituted a balanced master or not.

Please believe me Karn when I say I do respect your opinions and have very much enjoyed listening to you on the Aethervox so this isn't a personal Attack on your belief's. I agree with your sig in that it's always worth thinking that way. I postulate that in addition to whatever very real skill you have as a player, which I'm sure is very high, you are able to do it more effectively with NB precisely because their design philosophy allows you a greater chance of success to achieve this.

[Q'iq'el]

Here's the impression I get-

the Dreamer is normally a trapdoor spider basically. he pounces on any place you are weak bringing out an overwhelming amount of force, then retreats in short order to hit the next target. <cut>

The sort of self-critical question to ask yourself when you try to deal with Dreamer is:

"But what are my troops doing?!?"

The turn 1 alpha-strike routine, the retreat to the lone Daydream in the back, the Alp-bomb... it's all obvious how it works. And its obvious the opponent can't activate to prevent it. But the bomb is dropped, it's your activation now and what do your models do? The bombed model dies, he packs up the alps and retreats, it's your table for all the remaining activations, what do you do now?

IMHO Calmdown is exactly right that you need to aggressively push him early on. And not just with a melee crews that need to push - with any crew. Even a slowish crew can threaten his retreat positions by turn 3 and that means he really strikes what he likes only in turn 1 - turn 2 and 3 and even 4 he has to deal with approaching threats. That's half of the game you can either focus on pining him down somewhere, or getting the objectives done with one or two fast minions.

Edited September 15, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[Fetid Strumpet]

But he doesn't have to retreat. He can just drop his crew on top of you and sit in the middle of a group of nightmares in the middle of Melee and not be touched at all. If he's brought at least 2 stitched he's got pretty much as close to the next best thing as 1 full certain turn of invincibility.

Now it does require some careful placement considerations but like I said I've seen Chompy's crew take out an entire take out an entire opposing crew save for the Master on turn one. I fail to see how theoretically being able to clog the Dreamer's escape vectors on turn 3 or 4 is helpful when your crew is dead of completely crippled on turn one or two.

This isn't an attack on you Q, and again let me state for the Doomsayers the Dreamer Can be beaten, and at the very least you often get the chance to interact against him, which you don't often get to do against other masters. I hear what you are saying and perhaps in your meta things are very different from my experience, or perhaps in mine are very different from yours. I can only comment on what I've personally seen and the research and analysis I've done on the Dreamer, so perhaps somewhere along the lines I have gotten a false impression.

[Math Mathonwy]

I feel that the advice against the Dreamer has taken a decidedly spiritual turn.

"You need to believe in yourself, make no mistakes while messing with your opponent's head to cause him to make mistakes and then exploit that mistake, whatever it may be, to completely dominate the whole game. It's just a matter of pressure and dominance and it's impossible to explain - a mystical enlightenment available only to a chosen few. But the Dreamer is very balanced, honest! Playing him makes you susceptible to these headgames even if you're a good player while granting the opponent immunity to them - Wyrd made the mini out of special moon metal that vibrates into your brain."

[Fetid Strumpet]

That's an outright misrepresentation of the facts Math.

. . .

It's special Sun-metal.

[Q'iq'el]

But he doesn't have to retreat. He can just drop his crew on top of you and sit in the middle of a group of nightmares in the middle of Melee and not be touched at all. If he's brought at least 2 stitched he's got pretty much as close to the next best thing as 1 full certain turn of invincibility.

And by doing this he is stopping you from destroying evidence, activating dynamite or winning a turf war how?

And how is he completing any of his Strategies, when he sits in one point?

Sure there are Strategies where it is a valid tactic, but in the end if sitting in one place was the game winning tactic, Nicodem would be at least equal to Dreamer in public eyes.

Of course, he can sit where he wants and move where he wants and that is a strength, but what are your minions doing?

I'm not trying to say it is not a problem. I'm trying to say that any discussion of the alpha-strikes or alp bombs without taking into consideration the movement of your side is more or less empty.

We've been through that with Perdita. "How is it fair the family can move everything together and I can't react"! And the answer has always been - "if Ortegas do so, you get to move everything to and you have advantage of moving everything while understanding his intentions better".

Edited September 15, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[Fetid Strumpet]

Q' If the dreamer drops an entire crew of combat monsters supported by 1-3 Stiched it prevents you from achieving any of your objectives because you are in melee with things that won't et you get out of Melee with them via the amount of disengaging strikes you'll have to make. And the Dreamer will still be achieving his objectives because even if it takes him 3 turns to completely wipe out or cripple your crew he still has 3 turns to then leisurely go and complete his objectives.

And I agree that you can't just ignore what the opponents positioning and movement are, but that's the thing, the Dreamer often doesn't care because he can adjust better than you can.

If you have a support master who your crew needs to function, like Kirai, that is the model that is going to die. If you spread out The dreamer can adjust to that to.

[karn987]

I feel that the advice against the Dreamer has taken a decidedly spiritual turn.

"You need to believe in yourself, make no mistakes while messing with your opponent's head to cause him to make mistakes and then exploit that mistake, whatever it may be, to completely dominate the whole game. It's just a matter of pressure and dominance and it's impossible to explain - a mystical enlightenment available only to a chosen few. But the Dreamer is very balanced, honest! Playing him makes you susceptible to these headgames even if you're a good player while granting the opponent immunity to them - Wyrd made the mini out of special moon metal that vibrates into your brain."

You forgot the Unicorn hair! Why does everyone forget the Unicorn hair! I say it over and over and over again

I've never said the Dreamer wasn't powerful or that the way he works wasn't hard to beat. I've openly admited that many times. But mock it all you want, there is a lot to the "state of mind" advice. The Dreamer requires you to accept certain things you normaly would be inclined not to. The most important of these is accepting you will lose models to him, one way or another. Often times this means your Master, and if you wan't to beat him you have to be ready to accept that and make him pay for it.

But if you can get into this frame of mind and strategy, you can find ways to handle him. There are to many variables to give a good step by step guide on how to deal with the Dreamer. There are many basic things that can and have been said about it, but the fact remains you often have to change how you think and play. You can't go against the Dreamer and expect conventional methods to win you the game.

At this point, I think we all agree on his power level and personally I'd like to move on from that discussion. He is over the top, he's one of the hardest to beat Masters in the game and has some well known issues. It's just the way things are right now and rather then getting mired down into another cycle of bickering over how over the top or "OP" he is, lets move past it. Accept that he is the way he is for now and lets get back to the topic of discussing how to beat him.

@Fetid: Your completely right, the Dreamer does handle your oponents positioning better then most crews can. But there is still a lot you can do for making things more difficult for him. Any place you can block of space for his Nightmares to drop is a good thing, especially during deployment. If your Dreamer apponent is rather bloodthirsty (or its a competitive Tourney etc), your probably going to get bombed first turn, so take percautions.

I played a game against a Raspy player who spun up the field quickly, got his back to building and set up pillars on one side. With his Gamin spread around the area and Snowstorm + Golem waiting nearby I could jump Raspy easily. But if I did, I was going to lose whatever I stuck in there and by position himself with the terrain and pillars, he cut of my other angles of attack. It was briliantly done but that careful use of positioning forced me to either hold off another turn, or start the fight on a flank in a more normal way.

Admittidly yes, you can't spend the entire game with this style of play. But you can usually keep it up long enough to get a few solid hits in against his crew. If he's not relying on an Alp Bomb, then you will have good chances to strike back if you've been careful. If he has no Alp Bomb, you pretty much are free to stick close together and that makes it difficult for him to pick you off without any damage in return.

@Alp Bomb: A lot of anti-Dreamer strategies come down to, is your opponent using an Alp Bomb or not. When a Bomb is involved, your forced to spread appart or even split your crew to avoid the worst of it. But when they're not present, your able to stick closer together and rely more on base blocking tactics. In the end, it almost seems like any anti-Dreamer tactic we talk about needs to be prephased with something about including or not including an Alp Bomb in the opponents list.

Edited September 15, 2011 by karn987

[Math Mathonwy]

You forgot the Unicorn hair! Why does everyone forget the Unicorn hair! I say it over and over and over again

I've never said the Dreamer wasn't powerful or that the way he works wasn't hard to beat. I've openly admited that many times.

Aye, it was meant as good-natured ribbing (as you took it).

But mock it all you want, there is a lot to the "state of mind" advice. The Dreamer requires you to accept certain things you normaly would be inclined not to. The most important of these is accepting you will lose models to him, one way or another. Often times this means your Master, and if you wan't to beat him you have to be ready to accept that and make him pay for it.

The other most important thing to consider is that Dreamer has completely insane movement allowing him to appear anywhere and he transports his whole crew with him. The whole idea is so outrageous that I'm flabbergasted that this was combined with crazy melee ability and strong support abilities on the same Master, but there you go. But I digress.

The thing to take home from here is that Dreamer can put any of his models anywhere he likes. They effectively have almost infinite movement for the whole crew (some limitations, but it is easier to grasp this way).

So yeah, warding off the battlefield to make sure that Nightmare appearance is on your terms is possible, but it takes luck in the terrain department, luck in the strategy department, luck in crew selection and luck with initiative. Possible, but extremely difficult and if one of those lucks fails to pan out, you're at an extremely severe disadvantage and if two fail, you lose unless your opponent is a moron (compared to being, if all of that luck holds out, on somewhat even terms).

I'm not sure that I like giving an opponent that big of a bonus without having a say on the matter.

The results of the "banned"-thread were astounding and eye-opening. Many, many groups reported that they look down on players who use the Dreamer and the Alp bomb, specifically and shun them out of games eventually. That's rather extreme, I think, but OTOH my usual Dreamer opponent was sorta disgusted at the power level of Alps himself, so I guess I shouldn't be too surprised. But the fact that this is happening in so many places...

[Fetid Strumpet]

I think the issue in discussing the Dreamer's strength Karn is that because he is so strong it is difficult to formulate anti-dreamer tactics. Firstly because having to have "anti-tactics" in the first place is a strategy for losing or at least not winning, it's at least a 0-sum game as it is generally a defensive strategy and defense doesn't win games, only offense does.

Sure you can try to adjust your position, make it hard for him to get at you, if you are lucky and good maybe you can even achieve the perfect middle ground positioning that will let you offensively strike his crew when he comes in and inflict a few loses on him when he does come in. But again what we come back to is really this is just a more complicated way of saying "Play the game, hope The Dreamer makes a mistake".

I agree that the spiral of "Dreamer too strong, omg!" has gone on long enough, but if we agree he's too strong, where do we go from here?

If we are looking for a way forward are we at the point where we are looking at what small fixes could be done to him to bring him back into line as a powerful master, because frankly masters that work their crew as well as Kirai, the Dreamer, Colette, etc do, but not a super strong one?

I think the ice is very thin here. I think the Dreamer needs to be fixed, but like I've said many times before I'm very leary of doing to much because if they "fix" a powerful master to bring them a little more in line, what do they do once that happens when the next master in line becomes "the strongest"?

Regardless here's my take now that I've examined the problem a little more. I think the Dreamer's major strength (not all of it) comes from his interactions with his Daydreams. I've played games against the Dreamer before his DD got released and he was still very strong as a master. He gets exponentially better with them. The problem is I don't know what I would recommend as fixes that wouldn't completely cuddle the Daydreams usefulness.

[Calmdown]

Regardless here's my take now that I've examined the problem a little more. I think the Dreamer's major strength (not all of it) comes from his interactions with his Daydreams. I've played games against the Dreamer before his DD got released and he was still very strong as a master. He gets exponentially better with them. The problem is I don't know what I would recommend as fixes that wouldn't completely cuddle the Daydreams usefulness.

The 'first try' fixes to Dreamer are quite simple, imho.

1) Don't let Chompy use soulstones

2) Remove Onslaught

The major problem isn't maneuverability, or defensive ability, or anything like that. The major issue is that Chompy is just too good at killing things. I'll withhold my opinions on Flay's power level for another thread, but having two triggers (one of which uses a suit that nothing else in his crew needs), paired, the ability to consistently hit a trigger thanks to paired + stones, the ability to consistently win attacks by 5+ for cheated damage, and a damage line of 2/4/6, is simply too much in one model. Even if it couldn't be flung across the board. Far, far too much. Even if you dont agree with doing both of these, just removing soulstone use could be enough.

Of course after that is done, you still have to deal with the fact that his minion choices - Stitched, Lelu and Lilitu - are better than most other minions in the game point-for-point, but that's a wider issue and not Dreamer specific. Removing the ability for Chompy to just kill whatever he wants, sometimes two things, with hellish consistency and barely even a need to cheat cards, would go a long way to fixing him.

That said... I'm still going to continue formulating anti-Dreamer ideas. I drew a game to McMourning this week if you ignored the Stitched/Slaughter interaction, to a guy who hasnt played for a while, who was playing a non-optimal list (with some play advice from me). As it was it ended 5-3, it should have been 4-4. It can be done even under non optimal conditions; and though it's not going to change the brokeness factor of the master, it might at least mitigate it and mean more losses for those people who "play Dreamer because they like the fluff" (funny how 9/10 Dreamer players constantly remind people how they really love the fluff...)

[karn987]

The 'first try' fixes to Dreamer are quite simple, imho.

1) Don't let Chompy use soulstones

2) Remove Onslaught

The major problem isn't maneuverability, or defensive ability, or anything like that. The major issue is that Chompy is just too good at killing things. I'll withhold my opinions on Flay's power level for another thread, but having two triggers (one of which uses a suit that nothing else in his crew needs), paired, the ability to consistently hit a trigger thanks to paired + stones, the ability to consistently win attacks by 5+ for cheated damage, and a damage line of 2/4/6, is simply too much in one model. Even if it couldn't be flung across the board. Far, far too much. Even if you dont agree with doing both of these, just removing soulstone use could be enough.

Well besides the fact that you need a Ram to pull it off and have no way of guaranteing you get one in your hand. Your more likely not to have what you need to pull it off then you are likely to have it. Also relying on the SS flip is always a risky business and pays off as much as it doesn't pay off. So really... your making a mountain out of a mole hill there. Yes if you have a high Ram and your SS Flip turns out fantastic, it's powerful. But how is that any more potent then what other Masters can do? Especially compared to say Lady J, McMourning, or Leveticus? The answer is simple, its the Dreamers movement that makes it over the top. If you put aside the Dreamer for a second and just consider LCB himself, he is really offensive but easy to kill. He doesn't have nearly the survivability of the other melee Masters or really any tricks to him.

The problem is not LCB, it's never been him. Considering the Dreamer himself is so utterly lacking in combat ability, LCB serves as his polar opposite and is on par or below the melee centric masters of the game. The key to the Dreamers power (and the crews) is his speed and manuverability, and thats what pushes so much of what he can do over the top. Without the Dreamer behind him, LCB is very lackluster even with all his offensive power.

those people who "play Dreamer because they like the fluff" (funny how 9/10 Dreamer players constantly remind people how they really love the fluff...)

You do realize that something close to half of the Malifaux players do play and pick their masters based on Fluff and look and not just pure power? Yet some who pick what end up being powerful masters are forced into a near neverending cycling of defending themselves from comments like those you've made before.

I'm not saying some people haven't picked him because they simply want to kick-butt in the game. But the average poster is going to be the person who picked it for the fun of it, or look or fluff etc. The rest aren't going to care what you or I or anyone has to say, why should they? They just want to win and don't terribly care for the social aspects of it so they are not going to post.

Edited September 15, 2011 by karn987

[011121]

My son and I picked up the dreamer due to the fluff that we knew about him, as well as the cool appearance of many of his models, but that just gives us more reason to want to get him balanced. It's frustrating to feel like it's unfair to use a model that we really like, who has an interesting play style that could be really fun if it weren't currently OP.

I also wouldn't consider LCB to be the root of the problem if he weren't coupled with models that hand out paralysis like candy (copellius), have impenetrable fog that hunter can't help against (stitched), and the ability to cause all models who are clumped together to simply die (alps). It's the combination of all these abilities and the ability to place them where ever you want, whenever you want, that's just evil.

Ultimately I think it's the daydreams that are the problem. Reduce the number of them you can hire to 1 like most totems and I think he'd be manageable. Still allow him to summon them if the player wants, but that's expensive so it becomes a tactical choice- do I lose a turn to get a second day dream in play and give up 2 soulstones?

Edited September 15, 2011 by 011121

[huntroll]

Actually the Dreamers fluff is really one of the best, and his models are awesome. When I read the first master spoilers from Book 2 I really wanted to get him, but when he got released I played one match against him, and decided that I don't want a master which has only one playstyle, and VERY unfun to play against.

Btw this is true to almost all the "OP" crews in the game (Colette, Hammy, the whole Neverborn faction, Kirai), they have good fluff, and are very good with "fluffy" lists.

On the other hand, I always get bad words for taking Belles and Mercs with McMourning

Edited September 15, 2011 by huntroll

[Bigkid]

Easy fix for Alps is:

'This model may not be buried'

Sorts the Dreamer abuse and doesn't punish those that use Alps in other crews (in fact it's a slight advantage).

Anyway,

In addition to the counters listed for Ressers, what are people thoughts on a team of two 'The Drowned'?

Get one to push/move itself near to the blighters, cast Riptide on it with the other (cheating low with the target one) hope that the Alps fail their Df-11 duel (followed by a DF-12 if you get the trigger) then get the original chap to 'Bursting spray' somehow (then another Riptide from 'Slow to die'...).

Viable?

[Fetid Strumpet]

Yes, The drowned are great against swarm models and also against things like Kirai's Seishin.

[Calmdown]

Easy fix for Alps is:

'This model may not be buried'

Sorts the Dreamer abuse and doesn't punish those that use Alps in other crews (in fact it's a slight advantage).

Alps are not the real problem with the Dreamer. They are just a compounding factor. The master is the issue, not the minions.

Also, making them unburyable doesnt make them less good, it makes them totally useless. That's not a desired outcome.

[Calmdown]

Well besides the fact that you need a Ram to pull it off and have no way of guaranteing you get one in your hand. Your more likely not to have what you need to pull it off then you are likely to have it. Also relying on the SS flip is always a risky business and pays off as much as it doesn't pay off. So really... your making a mountain out of a mole hill there. Yes if you have a high Ram and your SS Flip turns out fantastic, it's powerful. But how is that any more potent then what other Masters can do? Especially compared to say Lady J, McMourning, or Leveticus? The answer is simple, its the Dreamers movement that makes it over the top. If you put aside the Dreamer for a second and just consider LCB himself, he is really offensive but easy to kill. He doesn't have nearly the survivability of the other melee Masters or really any tricks to him.

The problem is not LCB, it's never been him. Considering the Dreamer himself is so utterly lacking in combat ability, LCB serves as his polar opposite and is on par or below the melee centric masters of the game. The key to the Dreamers power (and the crews) is his speed and manuverability, and thats what pushes so much of what he can do over the top. Without the Dreamer behind him, LCB is very lackluster even with all his offensive power.

But you miss the point. To remove or cuddle the Dreamer's movement and burying/unburying would ruin his flavour. It's what he does. From a game design point of view, you should always try to remove power without removing flavour. Toning Chompy down is the key to doing that.

I think you're wrong in saying that Chompy isnt the problem. Sure if you take away Dreamer's movement then Chompy becomes less of a problem, but that's not a good fix. Given that removing the movement is not desirable for flavour reasons, toning down the main user of his speed is the way to go. I think you underestimate Chompy's abilities also; no soulstone in the game has soulstone use AND paired AND two major triggers on their weapons. Viks are probably the nearest match for him.

Anyway, this is far from the only solution, of course. But I do think that people focus too much on various aspects of The Dreamer that are no more powerful than what other masters can do. Chompy is what really ties it all together because he's the ultimate beatstick.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I think the interaction between Daydreams and the Dreamer and Chompy is the biggest issue. If the Dreamer's cache was Zero, with no way to get extra stones without bringing less models, and we fix the way the Dreamer can Abuse not use the daydreams, the Dreamer would be very strong, but not over the top.