Alp Bomb, Mark 2

[Necromorph]

Only comment...rats will not be good with Hamelin. If they die making strikes...they generate more alps, bad bad. If you can make a rat through sac'ing a stolen and then (0) Writhing Mass the rest out of the bomb it might be ok, but otherwise, rats vs. alps is 'tarded. Just use (1) Irresistible Lure to take out the alps.

[Dolomyte]

Counter suggestions above this point have been (are being) added to the initial post as we speak.

In a tournament environment where you don't know what your opponent is going to be playing. let's say you hear him say Neverborn as his declared faction.

what list do you take? why?

Do you expect the alp bomb and dreamer? do you expect pandora? the filth list? Im curious what peoples thoughts will be in that environment.

[Dolomyte]

Curiously, I note that rasputina seems especially solid against the dreamer, as most of the models in her line have a good way of dealing with the alp bomb, or a way at least. Kaeris to an extent as well.

In tournaments I take arcanists, I've always taken rasputina against neverborn, just because I think thats her strongest matchup. It seems justifiably more so against the dreamer.

[Gensuke626]

Only comment...rats will not be good with Hamelin. If they die making strikes...they generate more alps, bad bad. If you can make a rat through sac'ing a stolen and then (0) Writhing Mass the rest out of the bomb it might be ok, but otherwise, rats vs. alps is 'tarded. Just use (1) Irresistible Lure to take out the alps.

I think this is only true if there is no Rat Catcher or Hamelin within 6" of the rats.

[Dolomyte]

I think this is only true if there is no Rat Catcher or Hamelin within 6" of the rats.

Do you think none of it is true, or only part of it is not true?

I think you would generate a new alp for each rat that died.

[schristofersen]

the rats do not generate corpse counters but would generate alps as I understand it. Not a good scenario. Similar to Kirai but much much worse.

[Gensuke626]

Do you think none of it is true, or only part of it is not true?

I think you would generate a new alp for each rat that died.

Gods...I just went back and re-read what I wrote. That is possibly the worst response I've made in ages...I need caffeine...

I agree with the fact that rats will die making strikes on Alps. It's sort of a given. But it's usually technically possible to position a rat in a place where it can make an attack and not die. Not easy, but technically possible. It has to be at full wounds and within 1" of only 1 Alp. They can safely make attacks from that range, though simply hitting an alp isn't necessarily enough to kill one. Though if you manage to kill an alp within 6" of Hamelin or a Catcher, it becomes a rat.

As for the Alps summoning more Alps...I've been going through the Rules Manual trying to figure out why it seemed so obvious to me that Rats dying to Recieveing Slow would not generate more Alps.

I suppose it depends on how one interprets the timing guide on page 6 of the RM. RAW, Never Wake Up and Voracious Rats technically occur at precisely the same time If they are immediate effects. If they are not, then I believe the acting player has precedence on which effect goes off, which means a Hamelin player can trigger VRats to get a fresh rat and prevent a new Alp from appearing.

In either case, a Rat dying to Exhaustion does not trigger Never Wake Up, so a rat dying by moving or making a Melee attack would either die, or spawn a new rat.

The more I read into the situation, the more I agree with Necromorph, but I don't think the situation is precisely as hopeless as he thinks it is...

That said I'm not a Hamelin player, but Two locals JUST picked up Hamelin and I'm trying to wrap my head around how he and his crew works.

Edited September 9, 2011 by Gensuke626

[Dolomyte]

Gods...I just went back and re-read what I wrote. That is possibly the worst response I've made in ages...I need caffeine...

haha its ok, its not the worst response ive made, so you've still got a lot of distance to fall.

I agree, the interactions do seem a bit wonky and could lead to some interesting scenarios, can you imagine someone bringing like 20 alps though? just drop 3 on a pack of rats that are near the ratcatcher and watch them spawn a table full of alps.

Hamelin can get himself into trouble with that in a few ways, with the ruling on whirling death by lilith she can keep targeting the new rat that spawns, killing them for a good long while until she gets a bad draw / runs out of soulstones. in slaughter you could be up 150 vps on your opponent by turn 2 =p

[Gensuke626]

haha its ok, its not the worst response ive made, so you've still got a lot of distance to fall.

I agree, the interactions do seem a bit wonky and could lead to some interesting scenarios, can you imagine someone bringing like 20 alps though? just drop 3 on a pack of rats that are near the ratcatcher and watch them spawn a table full of alps.

Hamelin can get himself into trouble with that in a few ways, with the ruling on whirling death by lilith she can keep targeting the new rat that spawns, killing them for a good long while until she gets a bad draw / runs out of soulstones. in slaughter you could be up 150 vps on your opponent by turn 2 =p

Personally...I think only one of the two effects would go off, either Voracious Rats or Never wake up...so I don't think table full of infinite Alps is possible.

But off topic, yes...Hamelin's Rats are sort of Inevitable but they're a hindrance when someone's running Slaughter.

[ZiggyQubert]

well, two things -

1 - when a rat respawsn it prevents any other models from being summoned due to the rats death, so no matter the order if a new rat is summoned then no other models get summoned, there are plenty of cases where abilities effect other abilities that have already taken place i.e when a model dies, before it dies do x etc. you could also make the argument that no other models being summoned is an instance of 'cannot' which would override the 'may or can' loosely following the breaking the rules paragraph in the RM pg 7 (just my two cents)

2 if the hamelin player has his wits about him you simply summon the new rat further away from lilith untill the rat is out of range (it may take one or two kills though)

[Dolomyte]

I know Magic said he had a list that is an alp bomb killer, but does anyone else?

I'm curious if you've had a lot of success against the alp bomb or no success? Post your list, your opponents list, and how the game went down.

[Gensuke626]

I know Magic said he had a list that is an alp bomb killer, but does anyone else?

I'm curious if you've had a lot of success against the alp bomb or no success? Post your list, your opponents list, and how the game went down.

I'll let you know if I see it. Alp Bomb is actually rare in my local meta. Mostly we see Pandoras and Colettes and Kirais...(Though in Colette's defense, most of the Colette players like the models more than the game.)

Also @ziggy - Never Wake Up and Voracious Rats have the same trigger. If they're both Immediate effects then it's a little questionable if VRats takes precedence. In this case the timing Is important I think, because if you summon a model before you begin the effect that states that you can not summon a model, I don't think it Retcons the first summon...

Edited September 9, 2011 by Gensuke626

[Odin1981]

Counter suggestions above this point have been (are being) added to the initial post as we speak.

In a tournament environment where you don't know what your opponent is going to be playing. let's say you hear him say Neverborn as his declared faction.

what list do you take? why?

Do you expect the alp bomb and dreamer? do you expect pandora? the filth list? Im curious what peoples thoughts will be in that environment.

A list with a avg wp of around 6 before stubborn or other bonuses. 2-3 models with cheap aoe (the ones that tend to cost 4 points in some cases 2 points). Heavy hitters that prefer to have ranged strikes over melee dmg ranges (not being a self loathing target). 1-2 models with leadstorm or suppresing fire (every faction has access to at least one model. Models that are quick or have los ignoring abilities to target daydreams/sorrows.

It really isn't that hard to make a list that is good against both dreamer and dora (zoraida to the same extent also attacks wp). While both style lists operate differently they do have styles that both attack the same stat WP. Don't be a coward and cry when you lose 1-2 models (no matter which list they take they will be able to kill some of your dudes), take the bloody lip they give you steel your reserve and uppercut them right back. Know which models that aren't the masters that are the ones you need to kill first. Don't clump up but try (board's terrain depending space your dude's out 15" wide and 6" deep).

[Necromorph]

The way I understood the whole rats/alps thing is that if you try to do anything other than pass or writhing mass away with the rats, they die, make new rats, and alps at the same time due to the wording of the alps ability (could be wrong here, but that's how I interpreted it here). Which would mean a whole lot of alps. On the other hand, even if I'm wrong, that still means that the rats will die every time they do anything but their (0)'s within range of the alps. I guess you could use the rats being placed into base with the dying rats to chain them further back until they are out of the alps range, but this would take a while timewise.

I rarely run rats as standard with Hamelin anymore unless I'm going for his Avatar, so it's really never been an issue...Irresistible Lure is the way to go, haha.

[Gensuke626]

The way I understood the whole rats/alps thing is that if you try to do anything other than pass or writhing mass away with the rats, they die, make new rats, and alps at the same time due to the wording of the alps ability (could be wrong here, but that's how I interpreted it here). Which would mean a whole lot of alps. On the other hand, even if I'm wrong, that still means that the rats will die every time they do anything but their (0)'s within range of the alps. I guess you could use the rats being placed into base with the dying rats to chain them further back until they are out of the alps range, but this would take a while timewise.

I rarely run rats as standard with Hamelin anymore unless I'm going for his Avatar, so it's really never been an issue...Irresistible Lure is the way to go, haha.

Part of that is wrong, as I've said. Never Wake Up doesn't Trigger off of Exhaustion. It only Triggers off of Feed on Dreams.

[Necromorph]

Right you are, was just looking at it. Either way, rats are less than effective against alp bombs, although since they won't die, they'll just make more rats, you can use them for extra activations until you get hamelin in position to pulse the bomb down.

[ZiggyQubert]

Also @ziggy - Never Wake Up and Voracious Rats have the same trigger. If they're both Immediate effects then it's a little questionable if VRats takes precedence. In this case the timing Is important I think, because if you summon a model before you begin the effect that states that you can not summon a model, I don't think it Retcons the first summon...

I would disagree with that, there is no reason that the two rules cant interact, especialy as the rules manuel gives guidelines for when rules contridict each other (as in this case) pg 7 the section on Breaking the rules "When the rules for two models contridict each other rules that say can overrides may, and a rule that says cannot will override can." VRats is a rule that say can "No other model can be summoned as a result of the model being killed."

I dont have the alp card in front of me but I dont believe that it says cannot, thus I think that VRats would override Never Wake up.

Edited September 10, 2011 by ZiggyQubert

[Gensuke626]

I would disagree with that, there is no reason that the two rules cant interact, especialy as the rules manuel gives guidelines for when rules contridict each other (as in this case) pg 7 the section on Breaking the rules "When the rules for two models contridict each other rules that say can overrides may, and a rule that says cannot will override can." VRats is a rule that say can "No other model can be summoned as a result of the model being killed."

I dont have the alp card in front of me but I dont believe that it says cannot, thus I think that VRats would override Never Wake up.

*goes to look up rules.* *Facepalms*

This is like the 8th time in 2 weeks that I missed a single sentence that lynchpins an argument. Thank god I'm not the Local Henchman down here.:confusedpuppet1

[Wormstrum]

On the topic of Alps, does anybody find it as amusing as I do that under the dreamer's page of malifaux.com under recommended purchases Alps are suggested?

[Soundwave]

On the topic of Alps, does anybody find it as amusing as I do that under the dreamer's page of malifaux.com under recommended purchases Alps are suggested?

Not as amusing as the Purifying flame being recommended for Sonnia for being a good caster minion. But that's another story...

[Ratty]

On the topic of Alps, does anybody find it as amusing as I do that under the dreamer's page of malifaux.com under recommended purchases Alps are suggested?

One of the abilities in the core box set summons alps.

[psychocamel]

Yeah I'm not sure what the joke is supposed to be. It makes sense that Alps is a recommended purchase.

Personally I've used them once and thought that (even though they didn't actually do much that game) I'd rather leave them out of most games, but I still bought an extra pack of them for when I feel like being annoying or something >_>

[Dolomyte]

agree, i imagine one of the suggested purchases for perdita is abuela ortega.

[Calmdown]

In case anyone is still on topic, I'm not finding Alps to be an optimal choice in Dreamer lists. There are simply too many better Neverborn models that don't cost the earth (enough alps to kill things is expensive) and that you can actively use rather than relying on passive abilities and low-Ca active spells.

I think, in terms of "anti-Dreamer" thought processes, that seeing a Dreamer player running Alps gives you plenty of weakness to exploit.

[Dolomyte]

In case anyone is still on topic, I'm not finding Alps to be an optimal choice in Dreamer lists. There are simply too many better Neverborn models that don't cost the earth (enough alps to kill things is expensive) and that you can actively use rather than relying on passive abilities and low-Ca active spells.

I think, in terms of "anti-Dreamer" thought processes, that seeing a Dreamer player running Alps gives you plenty of weakness to exploit.

I think the alp bomb's power level is much greater in conjunction with not being prepared for it. IE in a tournament when you dont know what your opponenets playing, you either set up to deal with the bomb and have a good chance if the opponent uses it, or you set up for something else, and wind up getting screwed by it.