Competitive Rezzers

[Cornelious1424]

Against Dreamer? I'm... a bit sceptical.

It's really kinda strange. In book one Seamus's big thing was terrifying shenanigans and Nicodem's was summoning. Come book two, and both have been cuddled to oblivion by giving all other factions such a vast number of models that are immune to those things. You can't rely on either as every faction can produce a very competitive list that can ignore your strength completely.

You can of course adapt. Change the focus and you can win still. But it kinda feels like Wyrd changed horses in the middle of the race there and I wonder whether it was a conscious decision.

I wasn't saying specifically against the Dreamer, but as a generalization. Seamus is a really good master if you use each one of his abilities in the right way. If you just play the lure, lure shoot tactic, I can see why you would think he is poop.

[ProdigalPunk]

As of now I think High Defense is much better then H2W. This is partly a design issue, and partly a meta issue (which is partly a design issue). Now that is not to say it will always be that way. In fact H2W is one of the few things I think Rezzers will have going for them with the current design philosophy.

H2W is much better with the following things:

Less importantly pulling weak damage, this hurts some armies more then others. Korps for example drop significantly if they are constantly getting weak. I think as Wyrd gets away from their more common scaling this could become even more prominent.

It also stops things that trigger off of moderate+ damage. Things like blast damage and models gaining slow. Tina is a lot less scary with h2w then with df 7.

Most importantly it cuts down on cheating. This is most important with Masters, but even nice on minions. I feel way more comfortable taking a hit knowing that I will not be Red Jokered.

Finally it has the added benefit of draining the deck of good cards. This is sort of a counter balance to the high df ability to drain a hand of valuable cards. High cards on minus flips are wasted, so the more high cards you remove from the deck on minus flips the better. Flipping a 3 and two 12s is so priceless at times. I think this is an advantage that gets so overlooked, because it is so subtle, but it is a big plus.

Currently though there are more times that not getting hit is so much more beneficial (don't get me wrong it is always beneficial, but that does not mean it is always worth the cost). Triggers off suits which low defense allows to happen more often being one of them.

[emissary]

Finally it has the added benefit of draining the deck of good cards. This is sort of a counter balance to the high df ability to drain a hand of valuable cards. High cards on minus flips are wasted, so the more high cards you remove from the deck on minus flips the better. Flipping a 3 and two 12s is so priceless at times. I think this is an advantage that gets so overlooked, because it is so subtle, but it is a big plus.

I think this is a good point too. I love seeing severe cards (especially ones with suits I know they're waiting for) go out the window because they flipped one bad card. In my game last night, twice in a row my opponent damaged Seamus, flipped 2 severes then a weak. Seamus took 2 weak damage hits and also managed to knock out 4 high cards of his deck. Yes, you have those spreads of 2-3 weaks in one set of flips, but it makes me smile to see wasted good cards.

[Math Mathonwy]

And I'm not sure where do you see exaggeration in my evaluation of the drop in damage, due to flipping at . When you can cheat damage and want to cheat damage, you will cheat for severe. It's not matter of randomness, it is matter of what a player would do if he can do it. So the difference you consider is the difference between the highest possible damage the player can get, if he's allowed to, and the damage he does get because of .

Even drop from Moderate to Low bracket is 1/2 or 1/3 less damage, in most cases. Just look at the numbers. That's the only point I made. Can't see exaggeration there, though of course there are exceptions (some of the rare 1/1/3 models and such).

Heh, that was a pretty hefty change of heart from the previous version:

What I'm trying to do is to say they work in concert - not only you are hard to hit' date=' but when you get hit, you receive only 1/2~1/3 of the damage you'd normally get.[/quote']

I'm sure you can spot the difference

[Math Mathonwy]

I wasn't saying specifically against the Dreamer, but as a generalization. Seamus is a really good master if you use each one of his abilities in the right way. If you just play the lure, lure shoot tactic, I can see why you would think he is poop.

"Shutting down enemy crew" for Seamus works against living models with moderate to low Wp. Otherwise I don't see him "shutting down the opposing crew". As for the rest of your post, I know that Seamus is an ok Master. Not top-5 certainly, but might be in the top-10. Top-15 for sure. He's the Master I've played the most and I don't lose much.

[magicpockets]

Okay, so who is the least tournament friendly resser master? I was considering a Rasputina crew but may take up this challenge instead

[Jonas Albrecht]

Okay, so who is the least tournament friendly resser master? I was considering a Rasputina crew but may take up this challenge instead

What's the Strategy?

[Cornelious1424]

Undead Psychosis is not limited to living models, so even nightmares, constructs, and undead can be effected by it pending they are not Immune to Influence. Not a hell of a lot a model can do when all they can do is attempt to move away. Yes, it's all theory but so is everything else. Just trying to defend my main man at the moment, I think he is highly underrated.

[Calmdown]

Okay, so who is the least tournament friendly resser master? I was considering a Rasputina crew but may take up this challenge instead

Nicodem.

Incredibly easy to kill coupled with move 3 and a reliance on corpse counters. If you can consistently win with him against higher tier masters that aren't played by idiots, I'll tip my hat to you.

[Necromorph]

Curious to see how nico will do with his avatar. I mean, he's one of the few that can get an easy turn 2 manifest, and he can be summoning 2-3 punk zombies per turn so long as the walking corpse engine keeps going. Plus he gets a bit faster, and keeps his 2 offensive spells. I'll be trying him Monday, so we'll see.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Well Magicpockets, here is the issue. If we are speaking about two opponents of equal skill level...I'd have to say...probably Nicodem. I say this mainly for two reasons.

#1: He's slow. In order for Nicodem to project his power wherever he needs to on the board requires more expenditure of Action Points from him. Now granted, his spells often have a long range, but his theoretical bubble of threat cannot shift very fast from one section of the board to another without spending even more actions either from him, or from another model who has been brought along to offset this weakness. Typically Mortimer or Molly. The Masters generally thought of as "Top Tier" by the community at large tend to not have this problem of projecting power where they require it very easily. Examples include The Dreamer, Kirai, Colette, Collodi, Pandora, etc...

Given how the game of Malifaux is so objective oriented (a fact I love!) this is a crippling handicap. You have a limited action pool from turn 1 and the less actions you have to spend getting into position to project your power in an effective way, the more actions you have to devote TO the projecting of that power.

#2: He lacks built in synergies that directly contribute to victory. Yes his bolster undead works for all undead, but it is a 10" aura. It is a big aura, and no mistake, but it is still limited by Nicodem's slow walk speed. Getting that aura to be where you need it on a moments notice is not easy. A good portion of his abilities which directly affect his built in synergy affect Corpse Counters. In the current environment Nicodem will rarely face an opponent that will be be composed primarily of models which will feed him these counters, so in order to get much use of his Arise, Zombie Control, and Zombie Fodder Talents he has to use them late in the game as his own models die, or attempt to build his crew from the outset to kill themselves, a strategy which I know many Ressers don't particularly think is effective.

Again I'm not saying Nicodem is terrible or bad, I just think he is an example that is particularly expressive of an outdated design. He was designed in the book 1 Era, when the rules were different (Graverobbers could actually take an all action to Get a Corpse Counter).

But if we are speaking of competitiveness I feel that a better definition should be sought for. A counter-argument often employed by those who argue something is stronger than it is perceived is that "If you learned to play, IE had more skill, you wouldn't be having the problem you are". I think as much as we can if we are speaking of comparing two of anything for ranking in competitiveness, we have to regard out examples as being played by individuals of equal skill level. Again, looking back on an example I've given before, comparing an automatic pistol to a revolver, you can't look at them and say "Well, if you just knew how to shoot the revolver is better than the automatic", I think it is a given that a highly skilled individual can perform very well with anything in the game. Competitive edge can only be determined if we assume skill level between the opponents is equal.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

Most ressers in a competitive environment suffer from longer activations and so fewer turns than anything else. It takes far more time to play a resser crew and that can really eat into your ability to get vp in a tourney setting.

All are good masters I think what they require most is a fast oppenent who can think a few moves ahead. When I play against ressers I know that I will not be making it to turn 6 because my opponents have a lot of activations and they can't complete them fast enough. So I go for vp early and win every time, even though most of time I would lose if we went a second round.

Once you can play them faster then the next step is to know how to crew build. Ressers second most difficult issue is good list building for strategies. Usually with guild or neverborn, I can bring good all comers list but with ressers a slaughter list is going to look a hell of lot different then a treasure hunt. It is important to know the role of each model for each strategy.

If you can master both of these things than you can make them competitive. This is just basic advice for most war games, but I think these are far more important and difficult to accomplish in this faction than any others.

As for the strongest masters I would say Nico and Kirai. Both bring the most options to the table but both are the hardest to master. Their strong point is long games of attrition and denial. McMourning and Seamus are both great masters but I would say all ressers are teir 2 masters.

edit: Though Seamus's Avatar is probably the scariest thing I have seen yet in this game. Spam terrifying and negs to wp hard for most crews. It seems a strong ranged list is the best way to handle him.

Edited September 2, 2011 by Mr. Bigglesworth

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

As for H2W versus high def, in a vacuum high def wins, but usually comes with H2W is higher wd, now add in the factor of 3 def 8 wds and h2w versus def 7 wds 6, it will likely take 3 strikes from most cb5 models (since attackers are favored on ties) will kill each model in 3 strikes. 2 hits for def 7 model and 3 hits for def 3 model. Now factor in the one shot ability a lot of minions can do 6 dmg in one strike and most cap at 6. Now my wd 8 is looking a hell of lot better because that gives reassurance that I can count on at least 2 hits before it goes down.

I'm just comparing Kade to hookers. Now let's not forget that hookers are cheaper than Kade. Same goes for Candy however candy has 8 wds meaning she is likely to take 5-6 strikes on par with a model half her cost.

Now factor in token effects like poison high def does better. Throw in blast since h2w avg higher wds they do better.

My math is not from a calculator but from play experience, and having played both types of models a lot.

Here is my favorite part is that we play crews so we can work on synergy to boost my natural abilities. Now a hooker for 4 ss with def 5 from bolster undead and cover whether from nico or just natural and h2w1 and 8 wds total wipes the board of candy in survivability. Throw in range 18" threat versus 13". I know who I pick.

Also on side note most nvb minions mode def is 5. and ressers mode is 4.

It is really better to deal with mode when it comes to stats than avgs.

On a complete side note in my meta I have yet to lose or tie against ressers. But my win ratio is probably around 10:1. I'm going to give Nico a shot and see what he can do, having slaughtered every time I think I know his weaknesses a little better, but I have to say he plays best out in the open and super aggressive. Summoning a samurai punk in the middle of your opponents forces is devastating, and you can only do so if you are in the middle. I truly believe Nico is the best resser caster because he is harder to predict due to his versatility.

Edited September 2, 2011 by Mr. Bigglesworth
on a complete side note. Math Fix thanks Gensuke

[Gensuke626]

Not trying to be a pain or anything...but Mean and Average are the same thing.

Median is you take the middle most number of a set and Mode is you take the most frequently occuring. Average or Mean is when you take all of the numbers of a set, add them together, then divide them by the number of numbers in the set...

So...Which were you talking about? It seems like Mode.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

Not trying to be a pain or anything...but Mean and Average are the same thing.

Median is you take the middle most number of a set and Mode is you take the most frequently occuring. Average or Mean is when you take all of the numbers of a set, add them together, then divide them by the number of numbers in the set...

So...Which were you talking about? It seems like Mode.

Mode thanks for the clarification. I was really good at math 10 years ago I swear

[Math Mathonwy]

Undead Psychosis is not limited to living models, so even nightmares, constructs, and undead can be effected by it pending they are not Immune to Influence. Not a hell of a lot a model can do when all they can do is attempt to move away. Yes, it's all theory but so is everything else. Just trying to defend my main man at the moment, I think he is highly underrated.

He might be underrated, but he doesn't shut down whole crews with Undead Psychosis unless the opponent does something really silly. The only way I can see him shutting down a whole crew is through terrifying and WP shenanigans coupled with UP. UP alone simply doesn't have time to do it.

Seriously, I've played him since the release of the game - I know a bit about him.

Okay, so who is the least tournament friendly resser master? I was considering a Rasputina crew but may take up this challenge instead

I'd actually say McMorning. Simply because Neverborn are such bad news for him due to his low WP.

As for H2W versus high def, in a vacuum high def wins, but usually comes with H2W is higher wd,

--snip long post--

No offense, but this has been noted by three or four different posters rather a many posts ago.

Edited September 2, 2011 by Math Mathonwy

[Teal]

To give my two cents on the H2W vs high def argument, I think one of the biggest differences is that H2W (coupled with more wounds, as it always is) is a lot more predictable. When I see my Belle in melee with, say, a Witchling, I know that he'll kill her in three hits, and work around that. And my opponent knows that too. But when Kade is in melee with a Witchling, I have a much harder time saying with absolute certainty what the result will be.

Overall, I prefer high defense. The points that you pay for it seem much better spent than those spent on H2W, but that may just be personal preference. Of course, I play Seamus almost exclusively now, so that philosophy hasn't entered my meta all that much.

[Stargazer]

Maths fail! The chance of hitting 2 cards of 6-10 is the same as flipping two cards of 1-5, but the chance of flipping a moderate is nowhere near the chance of flipping a weak. You hit a weak when you hit any of (1-5) plus any card (1-13). You only hit a moderate when you hit a (6-10) and any card of value (6-13).

Is that not exactly what I said..?? So either you agree with me or both of our maths are wrong..

I think we should put this H2W vs high Def argument to bed and move on. What schemes do you think are our best and with which masters? I know we don't have any guaranteed 2vps like kidnap or sabotage but which ones do you take and which ones are a definite no?

[AdrianMills]

Don't know about the other 2 masters but Bodyguard for Nico and Kirai seems to be fairly easy depending on who you are facing (I wouldn't take it if Kirai is facing the Viks).

[Ratty]

Stake a Claim with Kirai is fairly guaranteed.

[AdrianMills]

Has anyone tried the faction specifics ones ? When I play neverborn I usually take Reclaim Malifaux but I am unsure on the Ressers one yet.

[Ratty]

Has anyone tried the faction specifics ones ? When I play neverborn I usually take Reclaim Malifaux but I am unsure on the Ressers one yet.

Unfortunately the Rezer ones are very Nicodem-centric and don't work so well for Seamus, Kirai and McMourning.

[Hookers]

i think kirai can get more models than she started with easier than nico

[Ratty]

i think kirai can get more models than she started with easier than nico

Depends how you play her. But she can do, however it's far less safe VP wise than Breakthrough and Stake a Claim

[Calmdown]

Generally, both the master-specific and Rezzer-specific schemes are unfortunately pretty bad. As Ratty says they're all Nicodem-centric and even with Nicodem, they can be quite difficult against many opponents and depending on your strategy.

Generally, I look at the following (not including Nicodem; hardly played with him and I think he's too easy to get bogged down to do half of this stuff anyway):

Breakthrough and Stake a Claim with Kirai and to an extent, McMourning and Seamus, due to the ease of last second objective grabbing with movement tricks+summons.

Hold-Out against any list without specialist speed/float/flying/etc models, since Rezzers can, if nothing else, tie up non-tricksy models in combat pretty easily.

Bodyguard with Kirai since she's a nightmare to kill.

Assassinate with Kirai, depending on what master you're facing and how your list is set up (Jack Daw or -ve Wp flips + Wp attackers are great Assassins combined with Kirai movement)

Kill Protegee and Grudge with all masters as they're generally great at killing whatever they choose to (either by movement tricks with Kirai or Luring/Speed with McM and Seamus). However, be aware of how broken these schemes are when people Drain Souls their own guys, or other such tricks.

I personally never take Steal Relic as it's too easy to cheat+stone out of and generally puts your model in a position that screams "kill me!".

I also find that Eye for an Eye looks like it should be a great Kirai scheme but in reality is not that easy to pull off.