Competitive Rezzers

[Calmdown]

Models with high defense ignore black blood? How's that now?

Bad editing on my part, fixed.

[Q'iq'el]

Heh, I'm not arguing H2W is better than Df or that it is something particularily awesome on its own.

What I'm trying to do is to say they work in concert - not only you are hard to hit, but when you get hit, you receive only 1/2~1/3 of the damage you'd normally get.

I understand Jonathan's argument - if you merely compare how much the ability does for a model, it does more for models which can survive full hit or two.

But there is another value to ability, which is harder to quantify - how much ability does for a model by just being there and making opponent not act?

I'm trying to point out, that a 6Wd model, for which he dismissed ability as useless, is still going to benefit from it quite a bit, if it has high Df. Not because H2W is better than Df, but because the opponent knows from the start his damage is going to be cut further, even if he beats Df. That the model seems harder to kill is exactly as valuable as actually being harder to kill, as long as the opponent makes a decision based on that perception.

This is ability which makes opponent calculate. Will 2x Moderate damage kill it? Will I have to cheat it at least once to kill it? Should I bring bigger model to kill it and get done with it?

It isn't particularly good, but each time the opponent has brought a bigger and badder model to deal with your Punk Zombie, you won a little - he had to use 2 or 3 AP to deal with a 5SS model you're probably bringing back (or something better in its place), and that model has only 10~18 AP per typical game.

And that's not even mentioning many opponents start doing plenty of mistakes, when they feel pressured to calculate things.

And all that messing-with-heads doesn't invalidate the fact, that H2W does force people to spend more AP on killing your models - even the 4~6Wd ones. It just doesn't happen every time.

Edited September 1, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[Golden]

There needs to be a header at the start of this thread that reads "Welcome to Bickerville." Gawd...

Its been mentioned, but not really adhered to,Why don't we work together and form sound strategies? Just sayin...

I have, and play, Dr. Doug, Nicodem, and Seamus. I have not yet seen Kirai in action, but I can say this, you choose your faction first, then you choose your Master and crew based on strategies and schemes, correct? I know these three have very different ways of getting things done from game to game, let alone from one another.

Mc Mourning is a melee monster/summoner that can acquire body parts from anything, last I checked.

Seamus is a highly mobile,and versatile, UTILITY Master. Noone seems to catch that about him.(Thank you, Sandwich)

And Nicodem is a buff/aggro debuff/replenishment SupportMaster.Count on your guys dying,if the opponents models end up in the mix, thats a bonus, not something to depend on.

Ressers as a faction requires an expansive amount of knowledge on your Models,your opponents models,and execution of schemes and strategies. There is no Autopilot, unlike the NeverBorn where the purpose of a model and its crew is very straightforward. Ressers are much more situational and very reactive, far from weak, they just dont set the pace of the game,they mold to fit any pace.

Granted,those afforementioned attributes will benefit any player in any faction, but when your faction strength is amount and variety of models it is your new obsession. Would you play The Dreamer and a bunch of Nephilim? NO!!! Don't play Ressers without a decent model pool and a really good knowledge of what they should be doing. As plain for you now as "The Dreamer uses Nightmares."

A "Competetive Power Curve" is a relative thing to the types of competitions are being matched up. If your in a single master tournament where its one master every game, resser masters wont stack up, they are not meant to do it all, they are meant to do a few strategies really well.

I will end things saying a mantra that many others have uttered in the past, its about Victory Points. Period.

[Calmdown]

What I'm trying to do is to say they work in concert - not only you are hard to hit, but when you get hit, you receive only 1/2~1/3 of the damage you'd normally get.

If these numbers were true, you'd be right...but they're not even remotely on the money!

Almost all hits over the course of a game have a -ve flip. The difference in a H2W models and a none-H2W model is often zero; they take weak in both cases. The only difference is, that the High Df model is less likely to be hit in the first place.

Moderate damage is rarely double minimum damage. Most damage lines look like 2/3/x or 3/4/x. I cant think of a single case where H2W is going to consistently make you take 1/3 damage as you suggest.

So the reality is that H2W models will often take the same damage as a high Df model, but in some cases will take a few points less (2-3) when the Df model takes a mod or severe and the H2W model only takes a minimum. Those cases are offset as soon as a single attack misses the Df model and it saves the same amount of wounds.

And again, this is before we consider that H2W does not stop triggers such as poison and Df does.

I'm trying to point out, that a 6Wd model, for which he dismissed ability as useless, is still going to benefit from it quite a bit, if it has high Df. Not because H2W is better than Df, but because the opponent knows from the start his damage is going to be cut further, even if he beats Df.

It isn't particularly good, but each time the opponent has brought a bigger and badder model to deal with your Crooked Man or Punk Zombie, you won a little - he had to use 2 or 3 AP to deal with a 4SS model you're probably bringing back (or something better in its place), and that model has only 10~18 AP per typical game.

This is not the case, at all. Take any model with a minimum 3 damage on a hit. They take 2 shots to kill a Crooked Man, and they're going to hit because of his low Df. Put a Young Neph in front of it, and he's also going to take 2 shots to kill; but you need higher totals to hit him. H2W does nothing.

Good players can play around H2W; I certainly do. You can almost completely obviate the skill with good play. My most recent Seamus kill was because I knew all I had to do was hit him with 4 total attacks with Von Schill and my Dead Rider; I knew he'd stone Df on some of them, so I was unlikely to be on anything but a -ve flip anyway. If that had been Lilith, I'd not even have tried to attack her since the chance of hitting 8 Df with 5 Cb is too low (not to mention her trigger).

H2W is not an unquantifiable force. It is completely quantifiable. If your opponent is H2W2 (which is rare), assume weak damage and dont hit it with something like a Teddy bite which needs good flips to be useful; use other stuff instead. If your opponent is H2W1 (more common), you're pretty likely to beat it by enough to only be on 1 -ve flip, which is the same as if you'd attacked a higher Df model - but you're more likely to have missed the higher Df model in the first place.

All of this would be completely fine, if H2W wasn't so expensive on models. If a 4 Df, H2W1 model didnt come at as much cost as a 6 Df model, it would be fine. Look at poor Dead Rider; 10 points because he has H2W2 compared to all of the other Riders' much lower costs, prone to getting plinked to death by 2/3 minimum damage models because of his Df 5, inability to hide and need to eat his own wounds to get decent stats. It's an *expensive* ability as Wyrd cost it, and it would totally be worth that expense if coupled with good Df, which it never is.

Anyway, offtopic as usual...

Edited September 1, 2011 by Calmdown

[Q'iq'el]

Ok, Calmdown, I'm not sure what you are trying to argue.

1. I didn't said I speak about numbers. I'm speaking about relative difficulty.

If a Cb6 (decent) model whacks Df4 model (weak) and the expected damage is 2/3/5 (decent), you are looking at a situation, where Cb6 model will likely be able to cheat the damage flip or even get on the flip.

H2W means he won't, so he:

- Cheats to get the trigger out

- Cheats higher than he would otherwise

- Burns a Soulstone if he can.

Every one of this means extra resources spent on killing a weak Df4 model.

2. Second thing I said, was that in high Df model, it becomes even more problematic:

If you are likely to finish the duel with or even :-fate on the damage flip, you really have to attack multiple times or bring more models.

3. If you drop from 3 damage on moderate to 2 damage on low, that is 1/3 drop in damage. In fact, that means you can easily drop from severe to low, depending on flips - that's even more. If you spend resources to deal with that, you are spending more resources on killing the model than you'd normally would (either Control Hand, extra AP or SS).

Then you tell me about Seamus kill which exactly proves my point - to kill him, you had to calculate the damage and bring 2 heavy hitters. If opponent does the same to deal with my lowbie minion, I'm more than happy to let him kill it. I have numbers and activations on my side, as a Rezzer, and he is going to over-commit... or ignore the model altogether.

You are trying to prove the ability is over-costed for what it does when it doesn't work. What I'm trying to say it works when you bring Von Shill and Dead Rider against Seamus. It works every single time you over-commit to work around it. It doesn't, in any way, makes the ability worse that you can work around it, because you need to consider cost of working around it.

Sure, if you are winning and taking out enemy master, the ability isn't meaningful anyway. But if it is early in the game and every move counts, it does help a lot.

Edited September 1, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[Calmdown]

Post

I think we're talking about two different things.

No one is arguing that of two models with equal Df, a H2W model isn't harder to kill.

The point being made is that having higher Df is preferable to having H2W, and as such the argument that Rezzers are "tough" because they have H2W is incorrect, since they universally have low Df to go with it and this obviates its effect and more.

[Ratty]

I think it does depend on the difference in Df... Df4 is not as good a Df3 + HtW. Most Cb values will go through Df4 almost as easily as Df3.

[Q'iq'el]

I think we're talking about two different things.

Yes. I'm trying to show you, H2W is in different category of abilities than Df and you are mistaken to compare them.

No one is arguing that of two models with equal Df, a H2W model isn't harder to kill.

It costs more to kill. This is important distinction.

The point being made is that having higher Df is preferable to having H2W, and as such the argument that Rezzers are "tough" because they have H2W is incorrect, since they universally have low Df to go with it and this obviates its effect and more.

Argument may be incorrect (not me making it), but H2W is something you benefit from regardless of Df and I don't think, at any point, there's a trade made between Df and H2W.

What H2W does is counter the fact you are likely to need more resources to perform, as a Rezzer. It is an equalizer. You get more AP, more activations (typically), but if you need to cause more duels to win, you need to cheat more (not to mention all the card-draining abilities like Flurry). H2W makes your opponent spend more on cheating too, which puts you in better position. He may also have to sacrifice more AP or even activations, and that's even better, because he already has less than you.

Nothing to do with Df. Very good for Rezzers. Worth every penny.

[Calmdown]

Post

Alright. I disagree with your conclusions, not in principal, but because the impact of H2W is not high enough to have the effect you describe.

But let's not bother with this anymore since clearly our opinions differ

[karn987]

Yes. I'm trying to show you' date=' H2W is in different category of abilities than Df and you are mistaken to compare them.[/quote']

Absolutely. I believe I brought this up to you a few times in other threads Calmdown. H2W is Durability and high Df is avoidance. Yes they both work towards the same goal, reducing incoming damage on your model, ie resilience. But you can't lump them together so carelessly. They go about it in drastically different ways and have many subtle effects on the game that your just painting over with that broad brush of yours. Q'iq'el is on the money about this and some of it's effects.

Even the effects of H2W 1 are rather obvious. From the perspective of trying to get to that all important straight Flip, H2W 1 is worth an 11+ difference in the attack duel. That is rather staggering. Yes if you have Df 7 or 8, you generally have 1 - 3 higher then the average Cb and that does create a section of cards that just can't hit you and stresses your opponents high cards. But you feel the effect to. Mean while a H2W 1 model can be perfectly fine with a 5 on his Df Flip because its going to take a lot to get to that straight flip. Yeah luck happens, but I'll gladly take the relief H2W gives my hand.

Edited September 1, 2011 by karn987

[Calmdown]

Absolutely. I believe I brought this up to you a few times in other threads Calmdown. H2W is Durability and high Df is avoidance. Yes they both work towards the same goal, reducing incoming damage on your model, ie resilience. But you can't lump them together so carelessly. They go about it in drastically different ways and have many subtle effects on the game that your just painting over with that broad brush of yours. Q'iq'el is on the money about this and some of it's effects.

And avoidance is better than mitigation. Always.

Think what you like, I'm done with this argument, as usual the "Malifaux is fine you just can't see it" crew are out in force and you're entitled to your opinion

[Q'iq'el]

Alright. I disagree with your conclusions, not in principal, but because the impact of H2W is not high enough to have the effect you describe.

But let's not bother with this anymore since clearly our opinions differ

I think you are all-too often comparing abilities and their deduced cost on the paper, while in a miniature game paper is in the end of secondary importance.

I play Nic, Lilith and recently Colette. When I go with Nic, I do not even notice impact of H2W, because if my models die, they die. If I see opponent over-commit, I'm glad for that and I try to exploit it, but that is the only really noticeable benefit.

Colette, quite interestingly, has such an ease of getting cards for cheating or SS for buffing up the damage, this extra cost of having to cheat more and higher than usual doesn't bother me much (though it probably makes a lot of difference).

When I play Lilith against Nic though, I take H2W into account with every charge I make. I have only so many cards, I need them all and being forced to cheat anything more than damage flips really hurts my Control Card and SS budget.

It is a very noticeable difference for me, but it manifests on the table, depends on the opponent to a degree and does not matter every time (obviously a very good Hand may mean I can cheat more).

[Q'iq'el]

And avoidance is better than mitigation. Always.

Think what you like, I'm done with this argument, as usual the "Malifaux is fine you just can't see it" crew are out in force and you're entitled to your opinion

It's not about Malifaux being fine. It's about building argument on right premises.

You are right avoidance is always better than mitigation. But Rezzers heal (both actual heals and ability to bring models back at full Wd goes into that category of abilities) and avoidance crews in Malifaux typically don't (there are expensive exceptions to that, of course). If you mitigate and then heal the model up, the disadvantage goes away.

[Math Mathonwy]

If a Cb6 (decent) model whacks Df4 model (weak) and the expected damage is 2/3/5 (decent)' date=' you are looking at a situation, where Cb6 model will likely be able to cheat the damage flip or even get on the flip.[/quote']

Huh? Your "likely" is a tad strange here. Similar to the 1/2 or 1/3 of damage comment you made earlier, I'm not at all convinced that these sorts of obfuscation tactics where you hide random exaggerations into your posts make the conversation easier.

[Q'iq'el]

Actually, to set the record straight, I merely commented on Jonathan's observation, that H2W benefits models with multiple wounds and low Df more than models with few wounds.

Calmdown's argument about Rezzers survivability has nothing to do with that, and since he addressed my reply to Jonathan (which he has full right to), we continued the discussion on our difference in perception of H2W value.

I don't dispute his argument, that H2W has little to do with Rezzers survivability. Broadly understood healing does, but that's another story.

And I'm not sure where do you see exaggeration in my evaluation of the drop in damage, due to flipping at . When you can cheat damage and want to cheat damage, you will cheat for severe. It's not matter of randomness, it is matter of what a player would do if he can do it. So the difference you consider is the difference between the highest possible damage the player can get, if he's allowed to, and the damage he does get because of .

Even drop from Moderate to Low bracket is 1/2 or 1/3 less damage, in most cases. Just look at the numbers. That's the only point I made. Can't see exaggeration there, though of course there are exceptions (some of the rare 1/1/3 models and such).

[Jonas Albrecht]

Even drop from Moderate to Low bracket is 1/2 or 1/3 less damage' date=' in most cases. Just look at the numbers. That's the only point I made. Can't see exaggeration there, though of course there are exceptions (some of the rare 1/1/3 models and such).[/quote']

You're really going to make me go and catalog and average the entire game's Damage tracks, aren't you.

[Q'iq'el]

You're really going to make me go and catalog and average the entire game's Damage tracks, aren't you.

Feel free to, but I don't think there's any need. As far as I remember, 1/2/X, 2/3/X, 3/5/X are the common patters among minions and some masters, though the later can be all over the place, as Leveticus attests.

A/A/B patters appear on some weapons, but these are either low on damage anyway or secondary damage in cases I remember. I suppose you'll find some exceptions. In Book 1 many Arcanist constructs had such damage pattern, but Book 2 constructs are more normal.

[Calmdown]

Even drop from Moderate to Low bracket is 1/2 or 1/3 less damage, in most cases. Just look at the numbers. That's the only point I made. Can't see exaggeration there, though of course there are exceptions (some of the rare 1/1/3 models and such).

Your maths falls down when you factor in that the majority of hits in an average game of Malifaux are for Weak damage, and in this situation H2W does precisely nothing. The average damage reduction value is likely to be somewhere between 1 and 2, but the modal value (hopefully you understand the maths here) of damage reduction for H2W is actually 0, and that's my problem with it.

Edited September 1, 2011 by Calmdown

[Ratty]

I think your brushing over the real difference. H2W makes it harder to cheat. Lets say you have a big scary model to take out with your Master and have a Red Joker (or even a 13 in hand). You run at it and strike, against a model with high Df, lets say 6, you will probably cheat in a high card and spend a soulstone. In this case your all but guaranteed to be able to cheat in your Red Joker. Now throw the same model against a model with Df 3 and HtW2. Your almost gaurenteed to not get a straight damage flip, your also more likely to get a weak flip. In most cases that is the difference between 2 damage and 10 damage.

H2W is very good at stopping spike damage from high Cb models. Df is very good at stopping low Cb models hitting you. They do very different jobs.

[karn987]

Your maths falls down when you factor in that the majority of hits in an average game of Malifaux are for Weak damage, and in this situation H2W does precisely nothing. The average damage reduction value is likely to be somewhere between 1 and 2, but the modal value (hopefully you understand the maths here) of damage reduction for H2W is actually 0, and that's my problem with it.

See that is were I would contest you. I believe 100% it is a crew by crew basis and a players preference. I know my personal play style has me scoring moderate more then anything else because I play for the straight flip and rarely leave myself with just weak. Your just painting things with a broad brush, again.

There are also more cards that enable higher than weak damage then their are cards for weak damage. Yes you take the lowest card on the Negative flip, but it's not that hard to play for the Straight Flip.

This is the value of Hard to Wound 1, it pushes the Straight Flip from a 6 above to an 11 above, thats a 5 point increase. You also can't really account for what a player has in their hand to cheat with. They are very likely to have the majority of their hand be 6+. So again, it proves the value of Hard to Wound. This is only H2W 1 also, when you get into the 2 and 3 range it becomes even more valuable. You seem to keep missing the point, the value is in the ability to stop your opponet from cheating damage. That can be worth it's weight in gold and can easily keep a model alive as long (and some times longer) then a high Df can because it relies less on luck.

For Df vs H2W think of it like this. High Df is valuable against mid to low Cb models. H2W is valuable against Mid to High Cb models. They have different roles.

Edit: Ratty and I seem to be on the same wave length >.>

Edited September 1, 2011 by karn987

[Stargazer]

^That.

the majority of hits in an average game of Malifaux are for Weak damage

Not quite sure where you get that from? The odds of flipping Weak on a straight flip is exactly the same as flipping a Moderate. This then also extrapolates to flips where the probability of 2 moderates is the same as 2 weaks, the deciding factor is that when a moderate and a weak is flipped you have to take the weak making negative flips on damage very powerful. The H2W means that you will be flipping more cards for damage in all likelihood meaning the odds of a weak coming up will not only increase but you will nullify the opponents hand as they will be unable to cheat.

Edit: Ninja'd by Karn but I think we pretty much agree, when you are going to have a negative flip anyway yes H2W isn't that big a deal it's when the opponent is going for the straight flip with high cards from their hand that it really comes into its own.

Edited September 1, 2011 by Stargazer

[Calmdown]

Not quite sure where you get that from? The odds of flipping Weak on a straight flip is exactly the same as flipping a Moderate. This then also extrapolates to flips where the probability of 2 moderates is the same as 2 weaks, the deciding factor is that when a moderate and a weak is flipped you have to take the weak making negative flips on damage very powerful. The H2W means that you will be flipping more cards for damage in all likelihood meaning the odds of a weak coming up will not only increase but you will nullify the opponents hand as they will be unable to cheat.

Maths fail! The chance of hitting 2 cards of 6-10 is the same as flipping two cards of 1-5, but the chance of flipping a moderate is nowhere near the chance of flipping a weak. You hit a weak when you hit any of (1-5) plus any card (1-13). You only hit a moderate when you hit a (6-10) and any card of value (6-13).

In any case, no one has argued that H2W makes it harder for people aiming to cheat, to pull it off. The point is, again, that more Df is preferable to having H2W in general due to the fact that a better chance of taking 0 damage (and no triggers) is preferable to being hit more often but for occasionally less damage.

Also, your argument is mooted by the fact that if you don't aim to do more damage in a single hit by cheating cards, then you still have your cards available for other things. H2W forces you to alter your tactic, but you still have a choice; hit once and big or less and often is up to you. Against a model with high Df, you don't have a choice.

[emissary]

Maths fail! The chance of hitting 2 cards of 6-10 is the same as flipping two cards of 1-5, but the chance of flipping a moderate is nowhere near the chance of flipping a weak. You hit a weak when you hit any of (1-5) plus any card (1-13). You only hit a moderate when you hit a (6-10) and any card of value (6-13).

Wow, this was pretty rude. You're actually arguing exactly what he said. "the deciding factor is that when a moderate and a weak is flipped you have to take the weak making negative flips on damage very powerful." Another angle is that the odds of flipping a weak/BJ (21/54) and a moderate or above (31/54) is to the point where you want to avoid the negative flip not only for the chance to cheat, but flip favors you to do moderate or above straight but dips to weak with a single negative, and dives lower as you get more negative flips.

In any case, no one has argued that H2W makes it harder for people aiming to cheat, to pull it off. The point is, again, that more Df is preferable to having H2W in general due to the fact that a better chance of taking 0 damage (and no triggers) is preferable to being hit more often but for occasionally less damage.

Also, your argument is mooted by the fact that if you don't aim to do more damage in a single hit by cheating cards, then you still have your cards available for other things. H2W forces you to alter your tactic, but you still have a choice; hit once and big or less and often is up to you. Against a model with high Df, you don't have a choice.

It's not that black and white for me. What matters to me is the weapon's minimum damage and the spread of the CB to DEF. Frankly if you hit well but don't do a ton of damage on the minimum end (Baby Kade or a Flesh Construct for example) I don't care much about you hitting as much as I care that you don't hit the severe. Here's a listing of some of the damage ranges from book 1 for Neverborn/Rezzers:

Waldgeist: 2/4/5

Young Nephalim: 2/4/5

Teddy: 3/4/6, 3/5/10

Terror Tot: 1/3/4

Mature Nephalim: 4/5/6

Kade/Candy: 1/2/4

Silurid: 2/3/4, 2/4/5

Bad Juju: 3/5/7

Lilith: 3/4/6

McM (will ignore HtW): 2/3/6

Seamus: 1/3/5, 4/6/7

Flesh Construct: 2/3/6

Madame Sybelle: 2/2/4, 1/3/5

Mortimer: 2/3/4, 2/2b,4b

Necropunks: 1/2/3

Punk Zombie: 2/4/5

Sebastian: 3/4/6

Rotten Belles: 2/3/4, 1/2/4

Bete Noire: 2/3/4

Look at that list, very rarely is the severe less then double the damage of the weak. Many times it's much higher in terms of volume then the weak. Many times the moderate is double or more then the week. From experience, the only model off that list I really don't care as much to have htw against is the mature, just because the minimum damage is so high (which I think it one of the main deciding factors for me to begin with). If some of the models like the Young Nephalim or Flesh Construct hit their trigger so be it. It's just not as close to as black and white as you're making it out to be.

Edited September 1, 2011 by emissary

[Jonas Albrecht]

Maths fail!

Try not to undermine the point you are attempting to make.

[emissary]

Couple more things that are important to me in this debate:

I honestly don't see the increase of defense by 1-2 over an average model as being that big of an issue given the 1-13(14 RJ) range on the cards. There are difference spreads/models where this is an issue (like Lilith, which may be the most extreme model for this out there) but in general having a CB 4-5 model go up against a DF 4-5 (averageish for Rezzers) model vs a DF 5-6 model (averageish for Neverborn) isn't huge considering it's an 8ish% jump in cards. Yes, you can look at Rotten Belles with their DF 3 and Young Nephalim with their DF 6, but you're looking at opposite ends of the spectrum. Many Rezzer models have a DF 5 with HTW including Canine Remains, Punk Zombies and Mortimer. If this were dice where it was a 1 in 6 change that would be different. Unless you manage to get within 1-3 of them to completely avoid the damage, the only thing that extra DEF will do for you is act as a pseudo-HtW 1 if the CB-DF spread changes what damage flip band you're in.

However, HtW is always in effect no matter how much you win by. Plus it helps to cancel out the bonus for charging, winning by 6-10 and great weapons.

Another issue are attacks that avoid DEF. Many spirits or other models can attack your CA or WP. There are spells that can do damage against your WP (Decay), abilities that attack your WP (Gamble your life) or attacks that don't have a DF at all (like self loathing). HtW helps on all of these but DEF is left at the door. Yes, there are spells where DEF helps but HtW does not, but it's something to think about.