Neverborn Rules Discussion

[Cunning]

Nekima is pretty terrible anyway. Even with irresistible she dies very easily. One of those models that looks great on paper but in practise you soon realise that she isn't all that.

Plus the sculpt itself is a nightmare. Such a small thin connection to the base of such a big model. Mine is currently bent 90% at her shin and I can't really be bothered to fix her again

[sephiroa]

1. Alps arent a problem in and of themselves, theyre a problem because of the way they stack. They hand out AE slow, and they have no real positional issues due to the Dreamer to offset their small range. The real way to solve the Alp Bomb is to stop Feed on Dreams stacking. Simple.

2. I dont really see Lillitu's double take as being a problem; I think the major problem is that she does too much for a 7 point model. Double Take AND Casting Expert AND a solid melee statline AND float AND 12 wp to attack her AND all of her other triggers and summoning etc...too much. I think she needs to go up to 8 points, and be toned down a little, or be toned down a lot. She puts support models from every faction to shame.

3. The problem with Stitched Together is not Does Not Die (although the many interactions in this game that allow you to bypass strat/scheme requirements - including this one, drain souls, saccing your own models, etc - do need to be removed). The problem with it is that it does too much for a 5 point mode. Its damage potential with GyL is huge AND always cheatable - and the fact that the opponent can win is bare compensation when the choice to activate it is yours meaning you will always do it in an advantageous position (and at worst...kill yourself and reactivate). Gambler is also ridiculous; hand control/card draw abilities seem to be very undercosted in general by Wyrd, and this one is no exception. I think GyL needs its damage toned down to realistic 5-point model levels, and I think Gambler needs to be a real gamble not "I discard an Ace to activate this". Maybe have a minimum card number limit on it, something. All in all, like Lillitu, Stitched is simply far too cheap for what it does.

4. Yep, that's all Kidnap needs. Must be announced.

5. I agree.

i have to agree with that, especially with the stitched, give them +2 wp from puppet master when playing collidi, they have 8wp, even most master cannot do nothing against that, and to have to use ss to resist it because of that insane damage flip, and for just a 5ss model, is way over the top. and the does not die ability indeed need some tweaking

[Talos]

With the stitched would it make it less overpowered if Gamble your life was a zero action ?

[sephiroa]

Nekima is pretty terrible anyway. Even with irresistible she dies very easily. One of those models that looks great on paper but in practise you soon realise that she isn't all that.

Plus the sculpt itself is a nightmare. Such a small thin connection to the base of such a big model. Mine is currently bent 90% at her shin and I can't really be bothered to fix her again

agreed,

but nekima isn't that bad, anoyying buffer and heavy hitter, only a little to much ss cost i think 11 or 12 was enough, i can do more with my snow storm than with nekima.

the model,, wel, it's a nightmare indeed, i found a way to fix that tough

[Cunning]

Even worse would be taking a stitched with Zoraida and a doppleganger. Ganger mimics Zoraida's willpower and gamble your life. Pain is brought.

[Mentat_Canis]

3. The problem with Stitched Together is not Does Not Die (although the many interactions in this game that allow you to bypass strat/scheme requirements - including this one, drain souls, saccing your own models, etc - do need to be removed). The problem with it is that it does too much for a 5 point mode. Its damage potential with GyL is huge AND always cheatable - and the fact that the opponent can win is bare compensation when the choice to activate it is yours meaning you will always do it in an advantageous position (and at worst...kill yourself and reactivate). Gambler is also ridiculous; hand control/card draw abilities seem to be very undercosted in general by Wyrd, and this one is no exception. I think GyL needs its damage toned down to realistic 5-point model levels, and I think Gambler needs to be a real gamble not "I discard an Ace to activate this". Maybe have a minimum card number limit on it, something. All in all, like Lillitu, Stitched is simply far too cheap for what it does.

Just so you know with gamble your life its a normal style damage flip meaning if it is a negative twist you can't cheat it.

http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=22783&highlight=gamble+life

[sephiroa]

With the stitched would it make it less overpowered if Gamble your life was a zero action ?

maybe it would, because its possible for them to do GyL twice in an activation, and when they die, 4 times, no model survives that with their 8wp, (execpt immune to influence models)

[Cunning]

Just so you know with gamble your life its a normal style damage flip meaning if it is a negative twist you can't cheat it.

http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=22783&highlight=gamble+life

That's interesting. The wording for the ability is a bit misleading in that case.

[sephiroa]

That's interesting. The wording for the ability is a bit misleading in that case.

that's what they meant with, can be cheated, it counts as a normal damge flip and can be cheated, it doens't mean you can ALWAYS cheat

[Calmdown]

Interesting. That certainly changes things a bit and makes me feel a bit better about facing them. Still OTT though.

[sephiroa]

Interesting. That certainly changes things a bit and makes me feel a bit better about facing them. Still OTT though.

doing minimum 3 damage with a (1) action, is just to strong,

2/3/5 would be normal, and since neverborn can but 3 of them in a single scrap, and its not a so it can be done in melee

[DarcXON]

I really think Neverborn are a little bit above average as a whole just the best players are playing them and everyone heard they are the op army so that's what they picked up first. The only one master that tips the scale at all is Pandora and that's because she abuses the moral rules which in this game are brutal. I honestly think guild is the worst faction out there and I see them being OP threads all over the place. Once people figure out how badly Arcanist ruin Neverborn really raspy just murders face, then Ressers will be OP because of how much Nicadiem can summon.

After playing with every Master I can honestly say that when thinking tournament play Neverborn Masters really are the top tier.

The sad thing is that "little" above average is what we are discussing in this thread.

Try to describe every faction and when you talk about Neverborn you might hit a snag. They have no inherent weaknesses anymore. They use to be glass cannons and now have models that are just as tough (if not tougher) than in other factions.

[Math Mathonwy]

Wp5~7 across the board is not unheard of in a crew. Rezzers can do it' date=' Guild is generally higher than that.[/quote']

Aye, 5-7 is way more realistic than the 8-10 you suggested earlier. And 5-7 really struggles with a WP12:-fate duel.

But that's the beauty of it. The Alp player chooses when to deploy the bomb. The ball in in his court and he has the edge. The other player is just hoping that he can capitalize if the Alp player makes a mistake but that's a decidedly bad position to be in.

That 45% gives you a chance to off an Alp or two. It doesn't guarantee it. And if the Alp player is smart, the odds are lower. Minis games are, mostly, about minimizing risks while making smart moves. That's what wins you the most games in the long run. Taking risks might win you a game every once in a while but it won't place you consistently high in tournaments. Minimizing risks while playing well does.

And Malifaux is especially beautiful in this regard as it has the control hand which allows you to plan and affect very strongly the things you deem the most essential. takes that away and when it's something as important as the Alp bomb WP-duel, that 45% just doesn't cut it.

My assumption is that it was created that way because it was fluffy.

I've been here quite long myself, you know (still have the original beta testing rules printed out on my shelf). I've seen those too and the Canine Horde Gravedigging really was unbalanced. The fact that there have been chicken littles around doesn't mean that every time someone cries wolf, there really is no danger (how's that for mixing metaphors ).

They are very easy to play, agreed. And yes, defending against them is hard. I just think that we have given enough time for the Stitcheds and Alps to say that no, there is no silver bullet coming, they indeed are too powerful.

How is that a problem? There's loads of minions that are weak at best unless they are in a crew with a specific Master. I would go so far as to say that that sort of forced synergy has been one of the most important design philosophies of Malifaux since the beginning. Now, the fact that Neverborn tend to have their most powerful models being awesome under every master doesn't make it so that every one of the their minions should be that way.

All in all, trying to balance the minions to be worthwhile with every Master while having huge synergy bonuses with one is a fool's errand at best and extremely harmful at worst.

Making Ice Gamin worth it for Colette is something that I'm not at all interested in.

Taking the away from the WP duel wouldn't make them useless. It would be a very big cuddle but they would still be nasty.

The argument that "I can win against them so they must be fine" is absolutely ridiculous. My win percentage in Malifaux is something completely ridiculous like 95% or something. Doesn't mean a thing balance-wise.

This doesn't mean that they are balanced. I realize that I split the paragraph and I urge others who read this to take it into account, but I wanted to take this separately as it is something that I see being pointed out a lot. "Making you think" is often a short-hand for "if you're a lot better player, you will still win". You lose with your Neverborn only to really good players, so you rationalize it as "only people who really think, beat the Neverborn". But this could just as easily mean that only people a lot better than the Neverborn player win against them.

Eh, I see this bandied a lot, but I agree with Q. Neverborn are easy to get to grips with. Not quite as easy to Perdita, but the fact remains that it's much easier to grasp their tactics on attack than the tactics needed to defend against them.

Interesting that one of your examples was deemed by Wyrd to be too tough and the basic rules of the game were changed to eliminate it, one is a purely personal example and a bit silly at that and the last one is again a model that has received huge revisions. So yeah, all I can get from this last paragraph is that you agree that Neverborn should be cuddled but since your previous post seems opposed to that idea, I'm thoroughly confused.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

Sigh. Players seem to have more issues with my Gremlins than my Neverborn.

Want to cuddle them next?

The Alp Bomb I see as an issue only becuase how it can stack with the Dreamer, otherwise they are only ok as a model. Everything else mentioned does not seem like an issue becuase other factions also have just as annoying tricks and schemes. The issue you may have maybe that the Neverborn is a faction of solid models while other factions' solid models are more spaced out or master reliant, but there are a number of sweet minions in every faction.

Have a problem with Lure take models who are immune to influence. Don't like Kidnap, stop killing your own dudes for body parts.(it's kind of retarded who much other Ressers do that, and yes I play Seamus.)

I can go on with the list and I have not seen issues so warranted that Neverborn as a whole needs to get cuddled. If we start there then I say go after Nino and a large list of other models I don't like.(Heading to work and realized I don't have time to type them all.)

Let's all wait till Book 3 finally gets more distributed and every faction has more choices than now and let's see if you all feel the same.

[Q'iq'el]

My assumption is that it was created that way because it was fluffy.

Perhaps you don't remember the original version of Kidnap. It was far less powerful and made Neverborn combine it with Assassinate and such (it was designed to off single target and you were predisposed to choose something your opponent wouldn't sacrifice, but use in combat against you).

It was changed in Raising Power, I think partly because Neverborn (with exception of Pandora perhaps) struggled against sacrifice/summon hordes. It was changed from something you used to target enemy elite models and masters into something you use to target their weakest minions.

There's nothing but intention visible in that change.

[DarcXON]

Let's all wait till Book 3 finally gets more distributed and every faction has more choices than now and let's see if you all feel the same.

The sad thing is that the models in Book 3 that would balance the Alp bomb would also require that the player know he is fighting against it.

Usually that would mean cheating.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

Well as I said the Alp Bomb is a problem, so there we are in agreement.

[Math Mathonwy]

Perhaps you don't remember the original version of Kidnap.

You are correct. I had forgotten the original version. Indeed, it seems that Kidnap is as it is through intent. Sad

The sad thing is that the models in Book 3 that would balance the Alp bomb would also require that the player know he is fighting against it.

Usually that would mean cheating.

Aye, that's one problem through trying to balance things by introducing new models. It creates worse imbalances in that things become even more rock-paper-scissors or else the models are so uber that you'd be a fool not to take no matter the opposing Master. Both of which are very non-optimal results.

[karn987]

Try to describe every faction and when you talk about Neverborn you might hit a snag. They have no inherent weaknesses anymore. They use to be glass cannons and now have models that are just as tough (if not tougher) than in other factions.

I don't see this honestly. They are still glass cannons in 95% of the cases. If you can hit them or get damage through to them (AE's), they go down easy. That is still true and constant accross the faction. I'm honestly just curious, what models do you see as being as tough or tougher then the other factions?

The only one that truly comes to mind is the Stitched Together and it is actually not tough, it just doesn't go away once you put it down. They still have next to no Armor, more Hard to Wound then say Guild but a lot less then Ressers. Average Wds. If they are a Nightmare, they are almost gauaranteed to have a low Df. If they aren't they either have a high Df or some secondary duel shielding them like Irresistible or Harmless. But nearly all of them are highly vulnerable to AE damage.

How is that a problem? There's loads of minions that are weak at best unless they are in a crew with a specific Master. I would go so far as to say that that sort of forced synergy has been one of the most important design philosophies of Malifaux since the beginning. Now, the fact that Neverborn tend to have their most powerful models being awesome under every master doesn't make it so that every one of the their minions should be that way.

All in all, trying to balance the minions to be worthwhile with every Master while having huge synergy bonuses with one is a fool's errand at best and extremely harmful at worst.

Making Ice Gamin worth it for Colette is something that I'm not at all interested in.

Fair enough. I mispoke and I think you took some of it the wrong way, but you are right. They don't have to be good with every Master.

The argument that "I can win against them so they must be fine" is absolutely ridiculous. My win percentage in Malifaux is something completely ridiculous like 95% or something. Doesn't mean a thing balance-wise.

You jumped my point completely. The point was, anyone can do it. You just have to know what your fighting against and how to handle it. Neverborn make you think, they are a blast to play against because of this. The factions basic nature twists the game in new directions and makes it so you can't tackle them like all the rest. Once you figure out how to deal with them though it's just the same as playing against any other faction. They have X, Y, and Z so you need to do A, B, and C to deal with it.

Look at Pandora. A year and a half ago next to no one knew how to really deal with her. There were pages of people screaming imbalance. Then people started to work towards figuring out how to beat her. Now she is still a pain in the butt to deal with, but there are a lot of tried and true ways to handle her and reams of strategies and tactics for dealing with her. People have figured out how to handle her and new models have given them the tools they've needed. Players have taken the time to stop and think instead of just reacting.

Eh, I see this bandied a lot, but I agree with Q. Neverborn are easy to get to grips with. Not quite as easy to Perdita, but the fact remains that it's much easier to grasp their tactics on attack than the tactics needed to defend against them.

Eh each person is different. But I do agree with the last part, that the tactics needed to defend against them are hard to learn. But that is part of the Faction and really the beautiful part of their design. This is not just isolated to them either, most Factions have at least 1 Master that presents the same kind of challenge. There are also Neverborn lists that don't make use of this, many Lilith players seem to forgo her biggest tricks in favor of the Nephilim's brutality.

It's part of the game though and it's been a core part of the game for as long as the game has existed. It's not really a problem. Competitive players will go up against them knowing what they are in for and knowing the gaps in each Master. Once you know the gaps in the Master, you often realize the trickle down effect they have in the crew. Of course players own personal style varies heavily, but some things are near constant. I really hate to quote GI Joe but, Knowledge is half the battle.

Interesting that one of your examples was deemed by Wyrd to be too tough and the basic rules of the game were changed to eliminate it, one is a purely personal example and a bit silly at that and the last one is again a model that has received huge revisions. So yeah, all I can get from this last paragraph is that you agree that Neverborn should be cuddled but since your previous post seems opposed to that idea, I'm thoroughly confused.

Actually all of those examples still exist to one degree or another. But we've learned how to handle it. I don't think Neverborn should be cuddled, nor do I think any faction or Master should be. If there is an imbalance, it should be indentified, examined, and see if there is a way to handle it. Wyrd has been very good about this with nearly all the Rising power models, many have had changes appear on their Card from the books printing that have helped balance things. Case in point, Stitched Togethers original book printing.

What I was trying to do is show you it is not just the Neverborn. There are a lot more examples out there and 99% of them have not been changed. Wyrd hasn't done much to handle some of the nastiest things in the game. Whats happened is players have learned how to play against them and how to win against them.

If you think something is to powerful, the first thing you should do is stop. Take a step back and then look at it and try to figure out how you can actually beat it before going off on a crusade to fix something you precieve as OP. Look at it from both sides of the field and see where the cracks in it are.

Ive had many people complain about the Dreamer, yet when I get them to try him themselves they suddenly realize he has major weaknesses. Is he strong? Yes. But half of his power is because you precieve him to be that deadly, you've already lost half the game in your mind. If you go into a game with the attitude of "Gee that model over there is so over powered I can't handle it" its going to affect you more then you realize. Attitude and perception play a big role in your own performance as a player. Neverborn have this almost inherent trait of warping their opponent's perception. But if you take that person, get them to slow down for a moment and really look at whats going on... everything more or less falls into place.

Yeah this all sounds a bit zen and non-sensical, but there is a lot of truth to this. Once you get past this sort of "mystique", you are still facing strong models. But you have the tools to deal with them, it is on you to figure out how to use them. Malifaux is a harsh game and makes no appologies for it, nor should it. It is the nature of the game. A great example of this is Pandora's Expose Fears. Once you realize it only happens when you target her, things fall into place nicely. You still have to figure out how to apply this knowledge, but thats where the skill in playing against her comes in.

Edited August 23, 2011 by karn987

[DarcXON]

Karn before I begin I want to clarify, this is not an attack against you.

I don't see this honestly. They are still glass cannons in 95% of the cases. If you can hit them or get damage through to them (AE's), they go down easy. That is still true and constant accross the faction. I'm honestly just curious, what models do you see as being as tough or tougher then the other factions?

The only one that truly comes to mind is the Stitched Together and it is actually not tough, it just doesn't go away once you put it down. They still have next to no Armor, more Hard to Wound then say Guild but a lot less then Ressers. Average Wds. If they are a Nightmare, they are almost gauaranteed to have a low Df. If they aren't they either have a high Df or some secondary duel shielding them like Irresistible or Harmless. But nearly all of them are highly vulnerable to AE damage.

I won't mention more than the ones mentioned here. You have to admit that Stitched has got one hell of a Slow to Die. The twins are tough in that if you do not take that model down in the same turn, at the end of the turn they heal it almost all the way back up. Add to that the fact that they have above average defense, Regen (Lelu) and Irresistible (Lilitu). In the end it all adds up towards their resilience on the table. Some would say that Coppelius dealing 4 wounds when he dies is a detriment as well.

You just have to know what your fighting against and how to handle it. Neverborn make you think, they are a blast to play against because of this. The factions basic nature twists the game in new directions and makes it so you can't tackle them like all the rest. Once you figure out how to deal with them though it's just the same as playing against any other faction. They have X, Y, and Z so you need to do A, B, and C to deal with it.

That is every faction in the game. The problem that we have been pointing out is that what is required to beat Neverborn usually involves luck (both good for you and bad for them) and/or a big mistake on their part.

Look at Pandora. A year and a half ago next to no one knew how to really deal with her. There were pages of people screaming imbalance. Then people started to work towards figuring out how to beat her. Now she is still a pain in the butt to deal with, but there are a lot of tried and true ways to handle her and reams of strategies and tactics for dealing with her. People have figured out how to handle her and new models have given them the tools they've needed. Players have taken the time to stop and think instead of just reacting.

If we have developed a lot of ways to "deal" with her and we still find her to be "a pain in the butt", then there is a problem. I was one of the players that was really happy when they introduced Ryle, the wording made me believe that he was supposed to be a model that would help against Pandora. Look how far that got...

It's part of the game though and it's been a core part of the game for as long as the game has existed. It's not really a problem. Competitive players will go up against them knowing what they are in for and knowing the gaps in each Master. Once you know the gaps in the Master, you often realize the trickle down effect they have in the crew. Of course players own personal style varies heavily, but some things are near constant. I really hate to quote GI Joe but, Knowledge is half the battle.

Competitive players went WITH Neverborn because they knew they had an edge against everyone. Granted that it wasn't 100% Neverborn at GenCon but you won't find those numbers anywhere.

What I was trying to do is show you it is not just the Neverborn. There are a lot more examples out there and 99% of them have not been changed. Wyrd hasn't done much to handle some of the nastiest things in the game. Whats happened is players have learned how to play against them and how to win against them.

Maybe because they are not unbalanced? Have you used these crews? I have at least given a try to every "power" list out there (against or with), and it always came down to "Does this beat Neverborn?". Our LGS has a lot of competitive players....

If you think something is to powerful, the first thing you should do is stop. Take a step back and then look at it and try to figure out how you can actually beat it before going off on a crusade to fix something you precieve as OP. Look at it from both sides of the field and see where the cracks in it are.

How long ago did Rising Powers come out again? I think we have done a lot of heavy thinking.

Ive had many people complain about the Dreamer, yet when I get them to try him themselves they suddenly realize he has major weaknesses. Is he strong? Yes. But half of his power is because you precieve him to be that deadly, you've already lost half the game in your mind. If you go into a game with the attitude of "Gee that model over there is so over powered I can't handle it" its going to affect you more then you realize. Attitude and perception play a big role in your own performance as a player. Neverborn have this almost inherent trait of warping their opponent's perception. But if you take that person, get them to slow down for a moment and really look at whats going on... everything more or less falls into place.

Half agree with you there. If you go in thinking "I am going to lose" then you will. The first time I played Lord Chtulu Bits was against Lilith and I lost 3-2 then lost again against Pandora 8-0. After that I think won something like 13 games in a row against different crews from other factions. They knew what they were up against and these are the same competitive players in my LGS. I may be good but damn if I would take credit for all that.

Yeah this all sounds a bit zen and non-sensical, but there is a lot of truth to this. Once you get past this sort of "mystique", you are still facing strong models. But you have the tools to deal with them, it is on you to figure out how to use them. Malifaux is a harsh game and makes no appologies for it, nor should it. It is the nature of the game. A great example of this is Pandora's Expose Fears. Once you realize it only happens when you target her, things fall into place nicely. You still have to figure out how to apply this knowledge, but thats where the skill in playing against her comes in.

But there is no Mystique anymore, and we still find the same issues and the same models come up. This is not something that we just saw in a new book and cried "cuddle!".

All I am hoping for is that if/when Malifaux V2 comes out, I can play Bishop again and not feel like I am handicapping myself.

Edited August 23, 2011 by DarcXON

[Wulfen]

Sigh. Players seem to have more issues with my Gremlins than my Neverborn.

Want to cuddle them next?

The Alp Bomb I see as an issue only becuase how it can stack with the Dreamer, otherwise they are only ok as a model. Everything else mentioned does not seem like an issue becuase other factions also have just as annoying tricks and schemes. The issue you may have maybe that the Neverborn is a faction of solid models while other factions' solid models are more spaced out or master reliant, but there are a number of sweet minions in every faction.

Have a problem with Lure take models who are immune to influence. Don't like Kidnap, stop killing your own dudes for body parts.(it's kind of retarded who much other Ressers do that, and yes I play Seamus.)

I can go on with the list and I have not seen issues so warranted that Neverborn as a whole needs to get cuddled. If we start there then I say go after Nino and a large list of other models I don't like.(Heading to work and realized I don't have time to type them all.)

Let's all wait till Book 3 finally gets more distributed and every faction has more choices than now and let's see if you all feel the same.

Nino is countered by a Stitched, easily. As is Sam, Stalkers and anything else with Hunter.

As to your comment about players who kill their own models to get body parts. Ressers are forced to do that against Neverborn, in large part, due to the fact that they can't get body parts from your nightmares. I tried to argue this in testing, giving a lot of Book 2 Neverborn nightmare, woe and Nephilim was way too much. It'd be like giving all the Book 2 Guild stuff the Family trait.

Alps are crazy, and not just because of the Bomb. Let's not forget that once they get close, if you have a melee force, get ready to take wounds because you'll be taking them once you start making strikes close to them, even if they aren't the target. Immune to Influence will help with the WP stuff, but not every crew will have this option, and crews playing against Neverborn will also have to consider that they may face Pandora, in which case that talent means nothing.

[Csonti]

Look at Pandora. A year and a half ago next to no one knew how to really deal with her. There were pages of people screaming imbalance. Then people started to work towards figuring out how to beat her. Now she is still a pain in the butt to deal with, but there are a lot of tried and true ways to handle her and reams of strategies and tactics for dealing with her. People have figured out how to handle her and new models have given them the tools they've needed. Players have taken the time to stop and think instead of just reacting.

You forgot to mention that Pandora got cuddled in multiple rounds.

Old Pandora played with all the cheese loopholes like Inciting your own models etc. would still be a hard nut to crack even for a skillful player. So - as a Pandora player - I agreed with most of the screamers and did welcome the change.

[Calmdown]

You forgot to mention that Pandora got cuddled in multiple rounds.

Old Pandora played with all the cheese loopholes like Inciting your own models etc. would still be a hard nut to crack even for a skillful player. So - as a Pandora player - I agreed with most of the screamers and did welcome the change.

It should tell you something that she's still a top class master now after all of these cuddles.

Hint: it tells you you were right, and that cuddles are sometimes needed.

[karn987]

You forgot to mention that Pandora got cuddled in multiple rounds.

Old Pandora played with all the cheese loopholes like Inciting your own models etc. would still be a hard nut to crack even for a skillful player. So - as a Pandora player - I agreed with most of the screamers and did welcome the change.

I actually legitimately forget about that olds stuff. I so vehimently refused to play like that way, so when she was modified I had to change next to nothing about my play style with her.

But in that case, yes I agree with you and that those were definitly needed. But then again, that was back in Wyrds first release draft of the game. They've come a long way since at the very least.

[DarcXON]

I actually legitimately forget about that olds stuff. I so vehimently refused to play like that way, so when she was modified I had to change next to nothing about my play style with her.

But in that case, yes I agree with you and that those were definitly needed. But then again, that was back in Wyrds first release draft of the game. They've come a long way since at the very least.

And this is the kind of stuff that keeps me in the game. Wyrd does listen to the player base when it comes to these problems.