Exorcist - one too many anti-resurrectionists?

[Dolomyte]

Witchling handlers - one too many anti-Arcanists?

I saw your gencon order. you bought no arcanist models, don't go defending what you dont love gobot =p

[Soundwave]

I saw your gencon order. you bought no arcanist models, don't go defending what you dont love gobot =p

Curses! Foiled again!

[Q'iq'el]

Instead your just asking we stop discussing the threads and have them locked and be done with, which does not help the issue at all. If you think someone makes a point that is wrong or incorrect, or want it explained further, ask them to do so. I've asked plenty of people follow up questions.

That was out of exasperation. My actual call was for some self-moderation.

And I think the burden of documenting the argument lies on the poster, not on the other players. If you want to say Combo X + Y is too powerful against faction B, post step by step how it works, what are the costs, how many Action points, how do you get in position to cast it, what opponent can do to defend against it and then everyone can judge if the assumed costs are right, if the effect is reliable or random, if the defending side can reliably defend from it or not.

And only then, after we scrutinize the process and ensure it is more or less spot on, we will see what is really OP. Right now there are only very few posters (on both sides) who even try to do this and there's really no other way to discuss balance constructively.

[ProdigalPunk]

Actually I have posted some of those multiple times in my previous posts' date=' so feel free to read this and other threads fully.[/quote']

Post #207-Rankings

Post #209 Calmdown is too aggressive. Statistics are only valid from people with Doctorates. A view of the Neverborn style that I want to call unique. Neverborn are just the flavor of the week.

Post #211 Calmdown is being irresposible due to his lack of proof (despite he is the only one that really brought any), and even though the proof he did bring supports his argument, there needs to be more testing.

Post #223 Mocking the thread at the expense of a dead dog

Post #281 This thread and all threads like it are stupid, we should lock them

Post #282 Vassal is not that good

Post #287 More one line mocking

Post #289 Discussion should have standards. If we don't lock this thread people will lose their voice to Wyrd. People do not know how to play Nicodem like you do, so they cry cuddle (although you did not cite who cried cuddle, but in your defense I did say it was bad design to make Nightmares non-living).

Post #292 You tell me to reread all your posts to find all your sweet citations

Post #298 The way people are arguing is wrong. People do not know the rules enough to even be arguing. Something insightful about Karn.

Post #299 More on standards

Post #304 More data is needed. What I will admit is a very good outline of how people should post.

Other then calling out Calmdown I saw no citation, and I don't think you answered any of my questions regarding my interpretation of game design and the dangers there of.

[Math Mathonwy]

So why do I still hear the crying about Nightmares? Sure' date=' they limit the rate at which you get your Body Counters, but they don't affect the number of reanimated minions heavily, so why the false argument about Nightmare characteristic breaking Nicodem is being repeated?[/quote']

Can you quote someone saying that Nightmare breaks Nicodem?

Because I see a lot of putting words into the mouths of the "anti-NB" faction and it gets extremely tiresome. Please, and this goes to everyone, not just Q, address the points made, not random strawmen that are easy to attack. Pretty please.

[Q'iq'el]

If I'm mixing up threads in my head, then clearly it's me who actually can't handle 30 pages of argument, and I apologize. Nevertheless we had 4 or 5 big threads, since Gencon, discussing everything from Nicodem vs. Dreamer to NB combos and the arguments are very repetitive, without being properly documented.

I'm less annoyed by individual posts (that's why I don't name them) and more by the fact that we have 4 or 5 threads on almost the same subject and neither is really conclusive, because there's no consistent methodology applied. This is probably I'm focused the most on the methodology aspect of the argument right now.

@Prodigial Punk

Yes, all my posts in this thread have been about methodology and what is needed for constructive argument. It didn't help much. I didn't feel like repeating my arguments from the other threads, but the've been posted in the Gencon tournament thread by Nix, in the Nicodem vs. The Dreamer thread and in the most recent NB Rules discussion thread.

My posts also contain less serious remarks, which are typically marked so by emoticons. Perhaps you learned in different internets than me, but they are not relevant and are at best an attempt to diffuse atmosphere. Perhaps lame one.

And I'm really shocked you see one-line mocking in the posts #223 #287. Misrepresent opponent's arguments much?

Anyway, the most relevant link for you (hint: player's profile is the best way to check for someone's post):

http://wyrd-games.net/forum/search.php?searchid=865473

In particular, my view on Nicodem's summoning capabilities:

http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?p=295102#post295102

And to address your particular take on Rezzers (Nicodem?) theme - there have always been players taking him for a summoner master of a horde crew. That has always been disputed on these forums. From the very beginning, ever since searching for corpses has been limited, there was a strong and solid argument from him being a healer/buffer of a close quarters fighting band with moderate utility.

Appearance of non-living crews in all the factions (to different degree) in Book 2 only reinforced the later vision of his crew, but it isn't exactly a change or at the very least a recent change.

[Ratty]

Can you give examples of these types of stipulations in other armies? (Henchmen do not count). I think it is still viable to run a rezzer list, I just think Book 2 in particular sort of took the rezzers schtick and kicked it in its teeth. Seamus is not really the rezzer summon master in the slightest, but all the non-living stuff does him dirty all the same. I am just saying, what other factions get hosed in the same way Rezzers do? I would also love to see a Kirai list that is competitive without summoning.

I've managed to wipe out a Pandora list turn 3 with Kirai without a single summon other than Ikiryo (which doesn't really count for this argument as you don't need to scrifice your own models to summon Ikiryo).

And to be honest I win a lot without any summoning other than Ikiryo.

Edited August 24, 2011 by Ratty

[Necromorph]

To add on to ratty's post, I just 8-0'd 2 people without summoning anything other than Ikiryo, haha.

[Buhallin]

I was, but that's not the point

Actually, it is kinda my point. Sure, you may not have been able to use some of your toys, but you obviously still had enough in the box to make it work.

Guild got Hoffman, a construct Master. Lucius has a living crew, though.

Ressers got Kirai, a spirit Master. Molly didn't get much of anything.

Arcanists got Colette who has a living crew. Kaeris has lots of Constructs but one living minion as well.

Neverborn got Dreamer (nightmares) and Collodi (puppets).

Outcasts got Hamelin (a weird case), Von Schill (living) and Ophelia (living).

So yeah, half of the Book 2 doesn't drop corpse counters and is immune to terror. Want me to compare that to Book 1?

Why would we compare it to Book 1? I'd much rather look at the factions as a whole afterward. That seems to me to be far more important - after all, Book 2 won't exist in isolation.

Guild was incredibly vulnerable to Terrifying and dropped counters from pretty much everything. Hoffman shored it up and gave them an option to avoid that, but they're still overwhelmingly vulnerable.

Rezzers were never vulnerable to Terrifying at all, and you couldn't rely on them for counters, because chances were they'd be trying to steal them too.

If we go by common Forum <ahem> "Wisdom", Marcus sucked and nobody ever played him, which meant most of the viable Arcanist options were constructs - no counters or Terrifying. Especially with the popularity of Colette, the odds of facing something vulnerable to it actually went up.

Book 1 Neverborn were pretty much all living across the board. Yes, they got more stuff that was immune, but some of their best stuff (the twins, Nekima) aren't.

Outcasts are across the board just as vulnerable to it as they ever were. Gremlins, well... heh. Hamelin splits the middle, with a crew that leaves no counters but is probably more vulnerable to Terrifying than any other top-tier master. Von Schill is very nasty against Rezzers, but his crew leaves bodies (although with Trappers you'll often be competing for them).

So no, I don't really see it. If you count numbers, you'll probably be right, but IMHO that's irrelevant.

And the thing is, that if you know you're facing Ressers, every faction now offers a choice that doesn't drop corpse counters and doesn't care about terrifying.

It's a good thing the entire Rezzer faction isn't only about corpses and Terrifying then, isn't it?

[ProdigalPunk]

I've managed to wipe out a Pandora list turn 3 with Kirai without a single summon other than Ikiryo (which doesn't really count for this argument as you don't need to scrifice your own models to summon Ikiryo).

And to be honest I win a lot without any summoning other than Ikiryo.

Just out of curiosity how do you heal Kirai again? Do you Just cast into the spirit world a lot so she can be targeted by the heal spells? I will admit that I only have played her a little bit, it just seems tough. I will also admit I was including Ikiryo in the no summoning, but you are right, that she does not require a model to summon. I sort of assume in the long run she requires some to heal, but that very well could be an incorrect assumption.

[Ratty]

Just out of curiosity how do you heal Kirai again? Do you Just cast into the spirit world a lot so she can be targeted by the heal spells? I will admit that I only have played her a little bit, it just seems tough. I will also admit I was including Ikiryo in the no summoning, but you are right, that she does not require a model to summon. I sort of assume in the long run she requires some to heal, but that very well could be an incorrect assumption.

Ikiryo has quite a few ways to heal

• Into the Spirit World and Sooth Spirit, Datsu-ba, Lost Love heal.
  
• You get a heal everytime Ikiryo kills something.
  
• If you are a spirit and low on live Eat Yourself to trigger the Lost Loves ability which makes you permanently a spirit (for easier healing) and puts you back on 6Wds...
  
• If things get really dicey eat a Seishin, your still going to want them for activation advantage and scouting.
  

However a lot of the time you don't have life issues. A lot of the time you dump out Ikiryo late in the turn to hit an isolated target.. You can attack with Ikiryo at the beginning of the next turn, then if he survives, swirl Ikiryo back eat him for 4Wds and then summon him out again immediately for a second set of attack.

Edited August 24, 2011 by Ratty

[ProdigalPunk]

Why would we compare it to Book 1? I'd much rather look at the factions as a whole afterward. That seems to me to be far more important - after all, Book 2 won't exist in isolation.

Mostly because Book 2 is seen as better then Book 1, and Book 2 made decisions that in my opinion that were bad and will effect the rest of the books. Nightmares not being living is my biggest one.

Guild was incredibly vulnerable to Terrifying and dropped counters from pretty much everything. Hoffman shored it up and gave them an option to avoid that, but they're still overwhelmingly vulnerable.

Rezzers were never vulnerable to Terrifying at all, and you couldn't rely on them for counters, because chances were they'd be trying to steal them too.

Chances are if they were trying to steal them it was to deny your opponent them, which is part of the game. I also am fine to see other factions do this as well. Kiria I think is considered the best Rezzer master followed by Seamus (which might change eventually). Niether of them really needs corpse counters. No one sees this as a bad thing? The Rezzers are the corpse counter army, and the two masters that use them are the two sub-par masters.

If we go by common Forum <ahem> "Wisdom", Marcus sucked and nobody ever played him, which meant most of the viable Arcanist options were constructs - no counters or Terrifying. Especially with the popularity of Colette, the odds of facing something vulnerable to it actually went up.

Half of Colette's crew are constructs. This is sort of my point. They took an army of show girls in it and still made it half constructs. I understand why they did it, being Arcanists are sort of the construct army. I do not think Wyrd is specifically targeting the Rezzers, I just think that the philosophy they have in tangent with the way the rules work directly effects them far more then anything else.

Book 1 Neverborn were pretty much all living across the board. Yes, they got more stuff that was immune, but some of their best stuff (the twins, Nekima) aren't.

The only living Nightmare models in Book 2 are Nekima and Blackblood Shaman. I agree that both of those are good models though. The twins are Nightmares so they are in fact immune to Terrifying and do not drop counters.

Outcasts are across the board just as vulnerable to it as they ever were. Gremlins, well... heh. Hamelin splits the middle, with a crew that leaves no counters but is probably more vulnerable to Terrifying than any other top-tier master. Von Schill is very nasty against Rezzers, but his crew leaves bodies (although with Trappers you'll often be competing for them).

We pretty much agree here.

So no, I don't really see it. If you count numbers, you'll probably be right, but IMHO that's irrelevant.

It's a good thing the entire Rezzer faction isn't only about corpses and Terrifying then, isn't it?

I agree that there is more to them then that, but I feel that is their bread and butter, and I think it is slowly being diminished. I heard in book 3 it is not as bad. I am not saying all is lost. I think that is the problem with the argument, too many people see our side saying "this is a problem" (and I will admit some people are being more vocal about it) and think we are all doomsayers. We just want to point something out, so we can determine the best thing to do about it. I have not looked at book 3, they may well have listened and started.

Just for the numbers, models that drop corpse counters in Book 2:

Guild 7/12 (not bad, but the guild always have been ore friends

Rezzers 5/13

Arcanists- 7/15

Neverborn -3/14

Outcasts - 6/14

Gremlins- 9/10

[Buhallin]

Mostly because Book 2 is seen as better then Book 1, and Book 2 made decisions that in my opinion that were bad and will effect the rest of the books. Nightmares not being living is my biggest one.

If you want to argue that Book 2 stuff is better so you'll see it more often, and therefore the counts from Book 2 weigh more, that's fine. But it also contradicts the point commonly made during the Neverborn griping that they're so good because they have 4 viable masters.

But beyond that, I still don't think you can look at it in isolation. You never just play Book 2 - it added to the pool. You can't cut the deep end off from the rest of the water.

Chances are if they were trying to steal them it was to deny your opponent them, which is part of the game. I also am fine to see other factions do this as well. Kiria I think is considered the best Rezzer master followed by Seamus (which might change eventually). Niether of them really needs corpse counters. No one sees this as a bad thing? The Rezzers are the corpse counter army, and the two masters that use them are the two sub-par masters.

Well, if stealing them from your opponent is part of the game, why isn't denying them in the first place?

That's the point I was trying to make to Matt - if Rezzers can still play competitively despite having one of their main themes denied to them, there doesn't seem to be anything but a perception/preference problem. I also think this is a bit of the reinforcing cycle - I don't play Nicodem so won't speak to him, but I think McMourning is as competitive as any of the masters. I rarely use him as a summoner - carve up one dog to get a Flesh Golem out, get another if I have the opportunity... But none of that relies on my opponent having living models. McMourning's ability to create body parts from nothing makes him one of the best options for summoning vs. nonliving, honestly.

I agree that there is more to them then that, but I feel that is their bread and butter, and I think it is slowly being diminished. I heard in book 3 it is not as bad. I am not saying all is lost. I think that is the problem with the argument, too many people see our side saying "this is a problem" (and I will admit some people are being more vocal about it) and think we are all doomsayers.

I think it's easy to look at bits in isolation, say "Every faction has something that can deny us counters or is immune to Terror, that's a problem." But that's not the same thing as it truly being diminished through the course of normal gameplay. Even if your opponent doesn't drop counters, you can always recycle from your own models and the theme is very much still there.

Probably the biggest thing to appreciate, IMHO, is whether it was intended that Rezzers always be able to rely on their opponent to provide them counters. It seems to be what many expect, but I don't believe it was ever the intent or the goal. So you are, in essence, worried that we're losing something that we never had in the first place.

[Dolomyte]

Probably the biggest thing to appreciate, IMHO, is whether it was intended that Rezzers always be able to rely on their opponent to provide them counters. It seems to be what many expect, but I don't believe it was ever the intent or the goal. So you are, in essence, worried that we're losing something that we never had in the first place.

I thought for $$$$$$$$s and giggles I would do some math

Book 1 models that drop counters.

Guild - 16/19

Res - 18/20

Arcanists - 10/20

Neverborn - 13/19

Outcasts - 16/18

Gremlins - 6/6

In total 79/102 or about 77%

Compared to book 2

in total 37/66 or about 56%

Which, book 3 withstanding, leaves a grand total of

116/168 about 69%

so 70% or so of the available models still drop corpse counters. What if we look at it by faction.

Guild - 23/31 74%

Rezzers - 23/33 69% (oh yeah)

Arcanists- 17/35 48%

Neverborn -16/33 48%

Outcasts - 22/32 68%

Gremlins- 15/16 93%

not suprisingly, the guild stayed relatively close to where they were in book 1, since with the exception of hoffman they are all men. (Edit - Men as in Man, not Men as in Men)

The rezzers are actually just about tied with outcasts for 3rd place in generation corpse counters, mostly because the majority of their second book is a spirit crew. which does nothing to help the non spirit crews. also, Kirai seems to be considered better then the other rezzer masters for a reason (Hint, she does not rely on something like the others)

The arcanists stayed the same in book 1 and 2, which is not suprising being they are the "construct" army.

What do we have here? the neverborn. They plummeted from being mostly alive to being mostly not. dropping them into a tie with the "construct" army as giving away the least corpse counters. Why are nightmares not living? What was the decision making process behind that? Did neverborn players have a lot of trouble with guild players?

Outcasts give away alot more body parts then I thought they would, but I attribute that to $$$$$$$$ models no one uses like hans and misaki. (I really want to use misaki cause she is an amazing model, but she just never does it for me)

Gremlins are gremlins.

Edited August 24, 2011 by Dolomyte

[Dolomyte]

If you want to argue that Book 2 stuff is better so you'll see it more often, and therefore the counts from Book 2 weigh more, that's fine. But it also contradicts the point commonly made during the Neverborn griping that they're so good because they have 4 viable masters.

Its annoying that they have four (five) viable masters, but my majority of griping is based on the broken interactions between alps and the dreamer and nekima and lelitu. stop losing sight of the prize people.

[Buhallin]

There's a really core problem with all your numbers though, Dolomyte: count-by-model doesn't actually mean anything in the context of the game. I suspect you actually know this based on your comment about Hans and Misaki inflating the numbers (although I see Hans in use rather often).

If all you count is individual models, then the Dreamer counts as exactly the same as a Terror Tot (twice, really, since I expect LCB is in your list separately). But which will you see more often in lists, and more importantly how many of them will be there when you do?

That's why I was trying to phrase my discussion by crew, at the very least. The Guild seems pretty vulnerable to Terror and dropping counters - but the vast majority of their immunity is concentrated in Hoffman. Move away from him, and most everything else will drop stuff. Same goes for the Neverborn - most of their immunity is concentrated in the Dreamer and Collodi (whose brutality has nothing to do with whether or not he drops corpses), outside that they're pretty giving.

Honestly, if you're going into a game as a Rezzer relying on your opponent to give you counters you're probably in trouble anyway. A bad start could easily cascade as you can't get the resources you're relying on. Having a backup fuel supply of some form is critical to any Rezzer crew design. That's not any different because it says 'Nightmare' instead of 'Construct'.

[Jonas Albrecht]

Well with the design philosophy design Rezzers, shouldn't they have a more self-sufficient means to produce CC?

1) Should Graverobber go back to carrying an inherent ability to gain CC?

2) Should the Graverobber/Scavenger ability be less penalizing? Maybe instead of being an (All), a (1) and two control cards deal?

[Jonas Albrecht]

The Guild seems pretty vulnerable to Terror

This is offset by the ranged focus of The Guild.

[Ratty]

To be absolutely honest Ressurectionists can

• Make smaller minions into larger ones.
  
• They can replace models that they have lost as most of your models drop resources on death.
  

They can do this without relying on the enemy at all. To be honest this is not awful. They have a few ways of generating counters.

• Mortimer can dig for them
  
• McMourning can use "A Piece for Me" on any model.
  
• Kirai can summon Ikiryo, who generates a seishin on death. bringing Spirits into the game without the opponent.
  
• Avatar Nicodem can create Corpse Counters.
  

So they are fairly solid without needing your opponents models to drop corpse counters. There also seems to be this belief that if a Ressurectionist model isn't Summoning they aren't doing anything worthwhile. Which is rubbish, Summoning costs AP, if your summoning your not swirling a model where you need it, or Bolstering your troups, Or ripping things up with Scalpel Slinging.

Edited August 24, 2011 by Ratty

[Jonas Albrecht]

Your last paragraph rings true, Ratty. I started with Nicodem, playing him as strictly a summoner. His potential is so far beyond just making more Zombie Punks.

[nilus]

1) Should Graverobber go back to carrying an inherent ability to gain CC?

Not unless they take Graverobber of Canine Remains first. It led to a lot of Turn one 15 corpse counter crazyness

[Jonas Albrecht]

Not unless they take Graverobber of Canine Remains first. It led to a lot of Turn one 15 corpse counter crazyness

Which is why I think tying it to Control Hand resources is a good idea.

[Ratty]

The other thing I find is a lot of the time what's stops me from summoning is lack of high value cards not lack of corpses/seishin.

[Wulfen]

Not unless they take Graverobber of Canine Remains first. It led to a lot of Turn one 15 corpse counter crazyness

That's what the fix should have been anyways. : \

[Necromorph]

Your last paragraph rings true, Ratty. I started with Nicodem, playing him as strictly a summoner. His potential is so far beyond just making more Zombie Punks.

Yeah I'm about to pick up Nico, and running a summon list seems to be more of a pain than it's worth. I'll summon stuff if my troops die, until then spamming decay, rigor mortis and bolster seem like much better uses for AP.