My dreamer's alpha strike

[Smokey616]

So in the same light; when a daydream is killed and ya bring chompy out with turn into nightmare, the enemy could still get away with remaining ap before chompy activates? Suddenly activating immediately doesn't seem so immediate! I was under the impression that "immediate" interrupted the current activation. And resumed current activation after chompy had his immediate one? Perhaps it's time for a v2 card clearing up the instances whereby "one master" is immediate or not. Strange that one master doesn't say "activates immediately AFTER this model" like it does with say companion or bond.

[Smokey616]

Or worse still tee off on lcb before he gets his retribution!

[mindwarpusa]

I'm kinda happy that this grew into a venting about The Dreamer/Nytmare(LCB) thread. I'd like to put in my two sense now. I bought the Dreamer because who he was. A little kid being followed around by his own everyone else's worst nightmare who he basically turned into a pet. Also supposedly one of the hardest masters to learn/play right, as this was my first crew I liked the idea of the learning curve here. In my opinion he is one of the best masters in the game mainly due to fluff but he is also very powerful, but is he too powerful, does he break the game, does he stop fun being had by all, does he auto win when played very well to perfect?

Is he too powerful. He is better than alot of other masters, but like all of the masters in this game he has strengths and weaknesses. Yes he can keep most of his models off the board the entire game. Ok so focus on whats on the board, usually two daydreams a stitched and the dreamer. The daydreams are pushovers in combat, stitched is very strong but still not to hard to get rid of, then the dreamer himself the 3 wd little boy... really hes a kid just whack him over the head. Oh but when you kill a Daydream another nightmare comes out, yes but only if he was Killed with a Melee Strike notice the capitals so dont use Melee. Oh and Nytmare(LCB) comes out when the dreamer dies, exactly and within 6" YAY the glass cannon is here in melee... Oh no Alpha strike you know your opponent is taking the dreamer when you deploy so make sure to place you high value models further back in areas with little room for LCB to fit also dont clump all your models together to prevent the woes of the alp bomb. People mainly remember to go after him dont wait and let him come to you, you wont get a chance to hit him before he disappears. As to Strategy's the only truly broken aspect is his ability to remove the treasure runner from the board until he wants to drop him in his deployment. Oh and you have fun trying to win while leaving your little set of glass canons next to objectives to block. I recently played in a league which I ran the Dreamer and won, I went undefeated but I didnt win by landslides I nearly lost a few times, but I like to think i'm pretty darn good Dreamer, but going back and talking and playing more games with those people. Nobody had a bad time everyone had fun and guess what i Alpha Strike the $$$$$$$$ outta them. So how about the auto winning after this league I played a friend who runs Levi well sadly I have yet to come close to beating her except in one game where I tricked her into killing a daydream that I left near alpha strike wreckage and he turned into a teddy. Thats never happened again...

Oh and as far as players being dicks just implement a rating system into the tourney that rates players on how much of a dick they are, then average the scores together and pump out a funnest player award. It works trust me it makes players think twice about sacing a model at the start of the game to prevent you from grabbing vps. Although if thats the only way you can win then go right ahead just dont be a dick about it.

@Smokey thats why being able to bring him in 6" away from the dreamer when he dies is so important.

If this was long winded, boring or some other way displeasing to you sorry?

[Smokey616]

Nice rant dude! firstly, I completely understand why the 6" inch when the dreamer dies. That wasn't what I was getting at. Also as a dreamer player I know annoying it can be when people focus on trying to convince the world that he's broken. He's not. He has a couple of really balancing weaknesses (much like all the masters(except maybe perdita )) and I've been on the receiving end of a few anti dreamer lists and sweated for a bit with most of them. If the dreamer is caught off his hop he's small fry as is lcb, they are both really fragile. I merely couldn't understand how lcb can be unburied and not activate immediately, as the card states.

[Smokey616]

Oh and daydreams turn into nightmares even if ya shoot them. Just states strike not melee strike

[Fetid Strumpet]

What balancing weakness does the Dreamer have? He is good at every strategy and scheme in the game, functions as two masters and so all strats which require you master to be alive only requires one of to stay alive, while all strats that require your master dead require the killing of Both the Dreamer and Chompy, he can manipulate the movement of his entire crew... Honestly to say the Dreamer has weaknesses is a little bit of wishful thinking. Playing him can be complex because he does require some careful positioning to get right, but if his balance is that if the Dreamer player makes a mistake in positioning you can get him, its not really a weakness. Counting on player error to balance a suite of abilities is not balance.

[Smokey616]

What balancing weakness does the Dreamer have? He is good at every strategy and scheme in the game, functions as two masters and so all strats which require you master to be alive only requires one of to stay alive, while all strats that require your master dead require the killing of Both the Dreamer and Chompy, he can manipulate the movement of his entire crew... Honestly to say the Dreamer has weaknesses is a little bit of wishful thinking. Playing him can be complex because he does require some careful positioning to get right, but if his balance is that if the Dreamer player makes a mistake in positioning you can get him, its not really a weakness. Counting on player error to balance a suite of abilities is not balance.

The dreamer/lcb or any of the nightmares are far from broken. His defence is poor as hell (quote"glass cannon") same goes for the dreamer. And if you look at any of the masters, as long as your facing them in their element, your doomed. I think that's the idea. I've taken lcb apart purely by being ready for his strike ( subtle sacrificial lamb helps) and stacking my hand to completely laugh at his attacks. Then with a nicely timed companion chain proceed to take apart his mode of transport makin his next appearance a lot more tolerable due to the fact that the dreamer player has to think a bit more about his excape. Relying on a summoned daydream just doesn't cut it for me. As far as I can see he's far from unstoppable, although he changes your crews modus operandi as soon as ya find out you against him. I for one can't sympathise with the whole he's broken thing because he gives a certain sense of excitement and fun to playing against him that I don't get from most masters. This being such a situational game where one masters comfort zone is tested in so many different ways it's hard to say this master has no weakness. I just dont buy it. I manage to find them every now and then and it's never reliant on someone messing up. That doesn't justify "convincing stategy". Watch him take one round from an executioner. Or nino. Before I've been consistently tabled by him, to me he remains extremely powerful, but beatable.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Chompy's defense is poor I'll grant you that, aside from being able to use SS which makes even a Def 2 model a pain to hit, The Dreamer himself is almost untouchable if he is played correctly, (see, again you cannot rely on the Dreamer making a mistake to balance him).

If you would like an example of what I mean by the Dreamer being almost untouchable I can tell you about a game where I was playing Kirai, and the Dreamer was in his deployment zone, and I managed to slingshot a Shikome into his deployment zone during he first turn when he only had 2 Nightmares out to protect him. They were Daydreams and they were positioned in a way that allowed me to come in on an approach vector that allowed the Shikome to melee attack the Dreamer. (a positioning mistake he never made again in any game I played with him I might add).

Now can we agree that the Shikome is one of the nastiest, hard hitting resser models there is? If so perhaps you'll be interested in knowing that The shikome did pretty much nothing to the Dreamer. I had a hand full of High cards, but so did the Dreamer, and the Dreamer could spend SS to cheat up. Also if the attack spread was low enough that I wasn't causeing a ton of dmg, he wouldn't even cheat, he'd let me hit the dreamer and do low dmg, then half it because of spirit, and then spend a SS to do a dmg prevention flip and take nothing.

I in the end caused a dmg or two I think, and immediately after I was done Chompy came out and killed my Shikome, and the dreamer never positioned himself badly enough where I could get a melee strike through onto him for the rest of the game.

Also if you are baiting and mousetrapping the Dreamer, again you are counting on play mistakes to balance the Dreamer because he doesn't even have to remain in your Deployment zone after he kills something of yours. If he sets his list up the correct way he can assault your crew with LCB no matter where you are every single turn, and after he's done, be back in his own deployment zone on his table edge immediately after he's done, almost completely safe from your reprisals, and if he has left a stitched out at his fall back position, he is completely immune to the first strike you can manage to get at him there for at least 1 full turn.

So no, I disagree with your stated reasons the Dreamer has weaknesses. Rasputina has a weakness, she is slow. Seamus has a weakness in that his crews are after not very killy, and he relies an Wp quiet a bit with very little way to get around it. If the Dreamer's weakness is that you can sometimes out play the player using him,... that's not a weakness because that is true of every master in the game and we are speaking about what "The Dreamer's" weakness is.

Edited September 19, 2011 by Fetid Strumpet

[011121]

Yeah I've never gotten why people say the dreamer and his crew are fragile. They just really don't seem to be. Yes the dreamer has low wounds but to compensate he's a spirit and has probably the best defensive power in the game on top of that, and total immunity to pulses, blasts of auras. LCB has a def 4 (just below average) but also has one of, if not the, highest terrifying in the game and built in healing. Beyond which you have to regard their phenomenal maneuverability as a defense in and of itself. And this isn't even mentioning the various specialty models they can bring along that shut down ranged attacks (stitched) shut down hordes (alps) or shut down single powerful enemies (copellius).

Are there masters in the game with better defenses? Yes, but there are also a lot with much worse defenses.

[Calmdown]

The only time outside of my first game with Dreamer, that my Chompy has been hit, is when I wanted him to get hit. Same pretty much goes for Dreamer. There comes a point in the game where it's OK to let your opponent waste a couple of AP hitting the kid and popping your models out in return.

Dreamer is anything but easy to kill. That's like saying that Collette is squishy if you take away her movement and defensive triggers. Its a pointless assertion.

[Smokey616]

I never said he was easy. I did however say in the right circumstances he is extremely killable. Which he is. I know im nowhere near as experienced as any of you but out of the games ive played against him ive had a 50 % win rate and only killed him once. And perhaps it's more due to my inexperience that I'm more willing to say $$$$$$$$ it! Bring on the challenge! I can imagine if you've had a new one ripped by him more than you've beat him, it would get tedious and by the sounds of things you've been trounced by him more than not. I still seem to quite enjoy getting beat by him if I manage to give him a bloody nose in the process, and getting beat by him has not been at the cost of enjoyment in the game. The only times I've ever beat him is when I've scrambled away from him and just scored my points, the whole while doing my utmost to keep away from him. If he's as broken as you experienced, knowledgable and excellent dudes say then I really don't think it would escape the attention of the wyrd dudes and then it's just a matter of time. The new book is called twisting fates so who knows? New card for v3 or suffer mere mortals?

[Fetid Strumpet]

The Dreamer himself is a VERY strong model, and I frankly think he is too strong but you know I can accept that to some extent. The issue is his interaction with the Daydreams. If you disagree can I please have a very defensive Resser minion that will let me reposition my all undead (or spirit) models within 6" anywhere I want on the board within 31" of that model? If you argue that that is too strong please realize that is exactly what the dreamer does with his daydreams.

[Q'iq'el]

The Dreamer himself is a VERY strong model, and I frankly think he is too strong but you know I can accept that to some extent. The issue is his interaction with the Daydreams. If you disagree can I please have a very defensive Resser minion that will let me reposition my all undead (or spirit) models within 6" anywhere I want on the board within 31" of that model? If you argue that that is too strong please realize that is exactly what the dreamer does with his daydreams.

You can't have everything. Note that Nicodem's Mindless Zombie shield is more powerful than Daydream shield. It simply does much more both for him and to the opponent, and can be restored at almost no cost, if opponent tries to destroy the shield, rather than kill Nicodem.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Nico doesn't start with the shield, he has to expend actions to achieve it. The Dreamer Starts with his. I'm just mystified that so many people seem to think the Dreamer is perfectly balanced within the rules. I mean honestly I just don't get it. There is no downside to him, and because of the way the rules for victory conditions interact with him he has a severe advantage to achieve his, and can manipulate his crew better than any other in the game to deny his opponents theirs. For the record and again I don't think he's broken because it is possible to beat him but really...

If you were playtesting book one and someone pitched everything the Dreamer can do to me,... I personally would have issue with it.

Ahh well I suppose we will have to agree to disagree on this one. The Dreamer and more importantly how he interacts with his Daydreams just looks and feels to much to me like an example of the kid that got the whole bag of candy and says it's perfectly fair because other kids have a few pieces themselves. I mean really can you please tell me what weakness the Dreamer has? And not just "well if you out play him and use the terrain to your advantage you might beat him." or "Well is the Dreamer player screws up at some point you could beat him." If you sit down across from the Dreamer what is his crew's weakness, what is the balance he has for all that he brings to the table?

Edited September 20, 2011 by Fetid Strumpet

[Q'iq'el]

Nico doesn't start with the shield, he has to expend actions to achieve it. The Dreamer Starts with his.

His other models have to expend their actions. All he has to do is spent his (0). Rafkin can give him a MZ before the first activation. Mortimer can companion Nico, Exhume the Counter and in effect allow for a MZ before opponent gets to activate (depending on the Initiative).

Even if MZ is not up before the opponent activates, we are still dealing with 12 Wd master with high Wp and soulstone pool - having the Daydream to start the game with is not that huge of an advantage.

I'm just mystified that so many people seem to think the Dreamer is perfectly balanced within the rules.

I'm not addressing "perfect balance", I'm merely pointing out whatever The Dreamer has is not necessarily the best. Perhaps he has right amount of everything to make him a very flexible and internally-balanced model (which in turn would make him reasonably good at everything, so a very solid or even perhaps a superior choice for a master), but to say "everything he can do he does the best" is, more or less an exaggeration.

Onslaught for example is quite a nice trigger, but if he had Flurry his damage output against tough models would actually be better and independent of his Control Hand. Onslaught is great for killing weak and medium difficulty targets (because you need to damage them for it to trigger and you don't need very high :rams to achieve that), which he has no problem with even without the Trigger.

But let's compare Nicodem's shield with Daydream shiels:

I: Daydream shield

1. The Dreamer cannot be targeted.

1b. The attackers in melee range, via smart positioning, can bypass the shield.

2. If the Daydream dies, you can summon another for 2 SS.

2b. You can get some extra supply of SS, if you really have to, by Draining Souls from Alps, which you can summon for Eye Counters and when killing opponents with the Alp bomb. The former is limited by the resources (eye counters, control hand). Both are unwise if your opponent puts pressure on your crew's Wp.

II: Zombie shield

1. Nicodem still can be targeted. He decides if he wants to cheat or soulstone the Resist/Defensive flip. After he sees the final results, he decides if he wants to cancel it or not. He doesn't have to do anything against attacks that miss.

1a. That means the opponent can easily lose a good Control Card and/or a Soulstone if Nicodem decides to sac a MZ.

1b. That means Nicodem can use his Control Card/Soulstone to shield the MZ, if he feels it is wiser to keep it for later.

1c. There's no other way to deal with the shield than to either force Nicodem to sac the MZs (more resource intensive, but he can't bring them back as sacced MZs don't drop counters), or kill the MZ, which is more action-intensive as you'll need enough attacks to kill all the MZs and to deal with Nicodem before he activates and gets all the MZs back. That in turn means you'll likely need to out-activate him or bring a crew which can companion - the first isn't easy for most crews, the second is available only to some crews.

2. If the opponent targets the MZ rather than Nico, the MZ will drop a Corpse Counter. Nico can turn it into MZ with (0) action. If he has several MZs around, he brings all of them back with that single (0) action.

Essentially to re-establish the shield costs Nicodem almost nothing. The more general impact on his crew is that he can't keep Bolster Undead up if you keep pressure on him, but that is still, IMO, less of a cost than having to spend 2 SS or having to sacrifice own models and permanently lower the Wp of the entire crew.

The synergy Nicodem has with his minions, which is often overlooked, resolves around mutual tank/hammer interchangeability. If you focus on killing Nicodem, his Punk Zombies will kill your minions and perhaps even your master. If you focus on killing his minions, he'll kill your minions and perhaps even your master, while increasing survivability of his own troops (by healing them). Nicodem's shield is the essential part of that.

I think there's no doubt to the fact Nicodem's shield is superior and plays bigger part in his crews' inner workings. That doesn't mean he is a better master of course - it is merely to put things in perspective.

Edited September 20, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[Math Mathonwy]

That Nicodem comparison is so random. Fetid didn't say that Dreamer is the toughest (=hardest to kill, that is) Master out there, just that he is very tough and so the claims of "glass cannon" are silly. Maybe Nico is tougher - so what?

(Also, it's not a "Daydream shield", it's "Nightmare shield" - putting a Stitched next to a Dreamer (even without the fog), makes him completely impervious to attacks from a certain angle.)

[Calmdown]

(Also, it's not a "Daydream shield", it's "Nightmare shield" - putting a Stitched next to a Dreamer (even without the fog), makes him completely impervious to attacks from a certain angle.)

Good job he doesnt have any Nightmares that can't be killed for a whole turn though, isn't it!

[Q'iq'el]

That Nicodem comparison is so random. Fetid didn't say that Dreamer is the toughest (=hardest to kill, that is) Master out there, just that he is very tough and so the claims of "glass cannon" are silly. Maybe Nico is tougher - so what?

It was in relation to this:

The Dreamer himself is a VERY strong model, and I frankly think he is too strong but you know I can accept that to some extent. The issue is his interaction with the Daydreams. If you disagree can I please have a very defensive Resser minion that will let me reposition my all undead (or spirit) models within 6" anywhere I want on the board within 31" of that model? If you argue that that is too strong please realize that is exactly what the dreamer does with his daydreams.

So hardly random. I understand Fetid trumpet's posts are somewhat hard to read, depending on the amount of effort put into dividing the text into paragraphs, but I actually quoted directly the part I was referring to.

(Also, it's not a "Daydream shield", it's "Nightmare shield" - putting a Stitched next to a Dreamer (even without the fog), makes him completely impervious to attacks from a certain angle.)

Stitched? I'm not sure even why you value Stitced so high in this case.

If the Dreamer is in position, where he can be targetted by ranged strikes, then any Nightmare in right distance will make him non-targetable. With right positioning, the nightmare itself will be non-targetable altogether, even without Stitched' fog.

The fog is nice when you have no terrain to provide such cover, but then fog is something which can be defeated by certain abilities (there are abilities ignoring terrain, and there are abilities ignoring effects, the later work on Fog).

However, from the start, it is obvious the solution to Nightmare shield is to charge in and attack melee, from the right position (as this is the only way to bypass Shadowy Form). Fog shields from some charges, but then you can just walk in and hit. If you bring in enough simultaneously activating minis to kill Stitched, you'll be able to charge the Dreamer within the same simultaneous activation. Never mind the crews (few and far between, I agree) that completely ignore LoS when moving in to attack melee (Any Arcanist can take the Duet, Any Neverborn can bring Young or Mature Nephilim etc.).

The reason why I bring Nicodem when we start discussing role of Nightmares or Daydreams in protecting The Dreamer, is because they precisely show that what the Dreamer has is hardly the best or unbeatable. Consider Nicodem sets up very similar defense, also with Fog available to keep ranged strikes at bay, but he can keep it up perpetually with minimum effort while his minions put pressure on you.

The Dreamer's defenses can be removed and as he loses it, he loses his fighting capacity, his mobility and his survivability.

In the Fetid' post he indicated he thinks it would be balanced if a Resurrectionist master had similar mobility to the Dreamer. My reply was to show a Resurrectionist master with similar defensive mechanic is not only far stronger on the defense, but his defensive ability grows stronger with the progress of the game and isn't diminished by loss of models... exactly opposite to how the Dreamer works under pressure.

This is also, I suppose, the reason behind Resurrectionists (at least Nicodem's) low mobility. You couldn't beat them if you couldn't out-play them in the first 2~3 turns.

This is probably the reason, also, why Rezzers seem to hate the Dreamer the most. He is hard counter to their ever-growing crews, because he will try to decide the game before it reaches the stadium, where he is weakened and they are so much stronger.

There are crews with individual models strong enough not to care about that initial advantage. Even if they lose some models in the first turns, they also shave off some of the Dreamer's crew and in the end they can all find themselves fighting on equal footing in the turn 5 or 6. Lilith' Nephilim, Guild Crews (at least some), Viktorias possibly, Showgirls (depending on who they manage to keep alive) seem to be in this camp.

Edited September 20, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[Calmdown]

Way off topic now, but I think you massively overestimate how good Nicodem's defensive abilities are. Every sacrificed Zombie is a corpse counter used that you can't get back. Against most crews, Nicodem doesn't have many corpse counters, and even against living crews he still has to pick them up somehow (which is a resource investment in and of itself). Corpse counters never grow on trees and the 'pressure' from his Undead horde doesn't happen if his corpse counters are being used to keep him alive. Not to mention the fact that raising Zombies uses Nico's precious (0) action up which means no Bolster Undead, the ability that actually makes him worth playing.

The Dreamer sacrifices precisely nothing to get his defenses up.

[Math Mathonwy]

It was in relation to this:

So hardly random. I understand Fetid trumpet's posts are somewhat hard to read, depending on the amount of effort put into dividing the text into paragraphs, but I actually quoted directly the part I was referring to.

That part you quoted doesn't mention survivability at all, but rather maneuverability. So responding to it with an example of how Nico is more survivable than Dreamer seems completely random.

Fetid posited that Dreamer is "very survivable" - countering that with "but Nico is more survivable and here is how" is completely random.

Stitched? I'm not sure even why you value Stitced so high in this case.

If the Dreamer is in position, where he can be targetted by ranged strikes, then any Nightmare in right distance will make him non-targetable. With right positioning, the nightmare itself will be non-targetable altogether, even without Stitched' fog.

Most models can be killed. Stitched can't be. Unless...

However, from the start, it is obvious the solution to Nightmare shield is to charge in and attack melee, from the right position (as this is the only way to bypass Shadowy Form). Fog shields from some charges, but then you can just walk in and hit. If you bring in enough simultaneously activating minis to kill Stitched,

...I have somehow misunderstood how Does not Die works. I thought that Stitched remains on the board and you can still target it (though for no effect) therefore shielding the Dreamer completely. If Dreamer has his back against the wall and the Stitched is in front, killing him is impossible. Unless I have understood something incorrectly (entirely possible, mind, especially as I still don't have the book at hand).

In the Fetid' post he indicated he thinks it would be balanced if a Resurrectionist master had similar mobility to the Dreamer. My reply was to show a Resurrectionist master with similar defensive mechanic is not only far stronger on the defense, but his defensive ability grows stronger with the progress of the game and isn't diminished by loss of models... exactly opposite to how the Dreamer works under pressure.

I'm not at all convinced that Nico really is tougher than Dreamer. Mobility is an extremely effective defense that you discounted wholly in your analysis, for example.

[Calmdown]

I'm not at all convinced that Nico really is tougher than Dreamer. Mobility is an extremely effective defense that you discounted wholly in your analysis, for example.

He's outright not. It's a ridiculous comparison. I dont know what games people play where they have an unending supply of MZs to sac, but the reality of Nico (which most people seem to ignore when talking about how he is a completely fine master) is that they're an incredibly finite resource.

[Q'iq'el]

...I have somehow misunderstood how Does not Die works. I thought that Stitched remains on the board and you can still target it (though for no effect) therefore shielding the Dreamer completely. If Dreamer has his back against the wall and the Stitched is in front, killing him is impossible. Unless I have understood something incorrectly (entirely possible, mind, especially as I still don't have the book at hand).

The difference is not in how Stitched works, but how Ranged and Melee attacks differ.

For a ranged attack model must be in LoS for target to be legal. As long as Nightmare is in LoS, even if it is out of range of your spell or ranged strike, it protects the Dreamer.

For a melee strike the target must be both in LoS and in range, so if you stand in the right place, you can hit the Dreamer without the Nightmare providing any protection.

Ergo Melee attacks are how one should go about dismantling his defenses.

Obviously, if he puts himself in exactly right position, you can't. So Alp bomb won't be as effective against someone in similar position - that is situational. And he probably won't stay in one place for the whole game either, so it is temporary.

Second observation from this is, that while Fog is very beneficiary for protection of his crew, when it is in play (not buried), it isn't so good when he is alone with Stitched to protect him. Why? Because it provides ranged models with the same kind of "key" to beating Shadowy Form the melee models have.

Without Fog a ranged model can target only the Stitched and it will remain there to the end of the turn.

With Fog, you can approach The Dreamer so that you see only him (Stitched more than 3" away) and at that point Stitched is no longer a legal target and you can perform ranged strikes or cast ranged spells on The Dreamer.

Of course ranged models are rarely mobile enough to do that, but among casters you'd probably find some who can exploit the Fog that way (especially if they can bounce spells of their faster minions).

Regular actions, that do not require LoS to target, are almost unusable against the Dreamer though.

Edited September 20, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[Math Mathonwy]

The difference is not in how Stitched works' date=' but how Ranged and Melee attacks differ.[/quote']

I'm now thoroughly confused. I talked about an angle of attack being blocked by a Stitched - you countered by saying that killing the Stitched is a fine option - I asked whether it's possible - and now you're saying to just attack from a different angle.

Of course, if you can attack from a different angle, you should do so. My claim was always that you can use a Stitched to block a certain angle. If the Dreamer has his back against the wall, he's invulnerable with a correctly positioned Stitched unless something pushes/buries/does something else to the Stitched in question.

You seem to make extremely long posts that are completely random in their content and how it relates to anything.

You didn't tell me how your Nico's toughness example was relevant in the first place as an answer to Fetid's mobility question. Now you shift goal posts randomly by saying that Stitched isn't a good deterrent as you can attack from another angle in answer to a claim that a Stitched is excellent in blocking a certain angle of attack.

This conversation is extremely frustrating to engage in when you answer completely randomly, shift goal posts and all in all change the topic at the drop of a hat.

I ask you to kindly stop doing that.

Again, completely random stuff that doesn't seem to have any bearing on anything anyone else had said in this thread.

I also thought that you can always see the Stitched inside its own fog, since you can see 3" into the fog and Stitched is exactly within that distance (so that random stuff is also wrong).

[Q'iq'el]

I'm now thoroughly confused. I talked about an angle of attack being blocked by a Stitched - you countered by saying that killing the Stitched is a fine option

No, I said bringing the Stitched isn't even optimal choice.

[qupte] - I asked whether it's possible - and now you're saying to just attack from a different angle.

[Math Mathonwy]

No, I said bringing the Stitched isn't even optimal choice.

-- snip --

My argument wasn't that I'd kill Stitched, but that Stitched is even easier to bypass than other Nightmares.

I parsed this as talking about killing the Stitched:

If you bring in enough simultaneously activating minis to kill Stitched' date=' you'll be able to charge the Dreamer within the same simultaneous activation.[/quote']

Also, I fail to see how a Stiched is easier to bypass than Daydreams when your argument for that relied on incorrect rules information AFAIK.

But, all in all, you're completely missing my point, which was that Dreamer's shield isn't restricted to Daydreams but works with all Nightmares, some of which are far less squishy than Daydreams or Mindless Zombies making it better in some situations than Nico's in a way that you didn't account for in your analysis.

Your analysis was incomplete and flawed and didn't demonstrate what you thought it did. It ignored the fragility of MZs compared to some Nightmares, the fact that a normal Dreamer crew features way more Nightmares than a normal Nico crew features MZs, and it didn't account for the vast difference in mobility which translates into an extreme survivability boost if used correctly. It also claimed that raising the shield costs Nico "almost nothing" when almost all of your Nico posts suppose that Bolster Undead is always active.

I'll grant you that your comment is less random if you believe that it demonstrated what you thought it did but since your analysis was flawed, it seemed extremely random in context.