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The Dreaded FILTH list


nilus

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From a guild perspective I would say two austringers (a must) drill sergant, nino, (either lady J or perdita not sure which) possibly gov proxy and a guild guard capt ( if you don't like being risky use sarge, santiago) advance up threw or behind cover into shooting range making them come to you and just opening up on nekima and lilutos (however the flunk they are spelled). and have lady j do the spell and austringers either focus dora or nekima, fitting lucious in to would be a plus cause he could issue command the austringers at paired combat 9 during his activation.

This style of list makes them come to you and not you to them so they can't sit back and wait to lure ad nausium because you can potentianaly have 4 paired 7 shots and 3 paired nine shoots every turn outside of the first and possibley the second turn as you advance to a prefered firing lane (important to note behind a los blocking terrain feature. But don't need los to anything and with lady j you provide bodyguard duties to your austringers to say you shall not pass to nekima/young/mature being aggresive towards your models and her spell taking away dora's defense.

Edited by Odin1981
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Just speaking in general terms but...wouldn't it almost always be worth taking out Nekima early if you get the chance?

I guess, but against this particular list, it's less of an "If you get the chance" kind of thing and more of a "You must do this" kind of thing. Nekima is the linchpin of the list. Take her out and dealing with the Lures becomes drastically easier. Don't just kill Nekima if the opportunity presents itself. Create the opportunity.

I confess I'm not as skilled with Guild and don't know their options but it sounds like others have been addressing that part.

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So if you are playing Single Faction in Gaining Ground, and you have Guild, and you come up agaisnt a Neverborn opponent, do you build an anti-FILTH list, or do you build to the scenario rather than a particular list your opponent may or may not take?

I would not recommend an anti-FILTH list because while they may be strong against that build, there are plenty of other builds in Neverborn.

To that end, I think this thread has been pretty useful - it hasn't concentrated on a single build to defeat FILTH. It's shown a number of ways from a number of different Guild builds that can try to handle it.

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I count at least a dozen individual posters in this thread suggesting 1 of 2 ways to face it down: Perdita/family or austringer shenanigans.

I also find it telling that A: the FILTH list is nothing about winning scenario, but killing your models if you so much as expose yourself, and 2: that the imediate solutions offered all centered around killing them back rather than trying to manipulate Strats/Schemes to counter the trick.

What prevents a Neverborn player from simply using Pandora/Nekima/lilitus in every game of a tournment, and simply ripping the guts out of the opposing list cause they can get LoS within 18"? (ie, 1/2 the board). From what I read here, you are probably better off trying to kill Nekima/lilitus ASAP, or you won't have a chance at completing objectives.

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It's probably my lack of understanding of Guild showing, but I thought I saw some good ideas for Hoffman, Sonnia, Lady J and Perdita in my glance through. I didn't read them all that carefully because the names of abilities for those models are gibberish to me, so I could have misunderstood what I was reading.

As with everything in Malifaux, it depends on your objectives. If you have Escape and Survive, you'll play much differently than if you have Shared Claim Jump. Sometimes you'll be able to avoid the Lilitu/Nekima combo using terrain and still claim your objectives. Other times you won't.

When you have to face down the FILTH list head-on, Nekima is the key to take out. If you can win without facing the list, by all means, do that.

The FILTH list does have bad match-ups and strategies that other Neverborn lists deal with better. It's another tool in the Neverborn box, but not a one-size-fits-all. Against other Neverborn, for example, it has a number of bad match-ups (Dreamer and Zoraida being two of them).

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@Dox

It's dependant on the strategy for me still. Though I will admit that for most strategies if I know my opponent is playing neverborn I will bring austringer spam or the family. They are just very effective anti-neverborn lists.

The filth list, when i've seen it work at its best, works to annihilate your army as fast as possible to prevent you from being able to stop them from completely the strategy on turns 4 to 6. However strategies like contain power, slaugther, claim jump, turf war, escape and survive, and plant evidence all work pretty well with the filth list from jump.

Edit - I'm told the exorcist can make all attacks magical as well, so he will prolly be a staple in my lists against neverborn, just for the fear of the other filth list that is Pandora, Jack Daw, Doppleganger, +

Edited by Dolomyte
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Would you say this is an example of balance between factions, rather than masters?

Totally, I do not feel there is any balance on a master to master level. you might find an even matchup or two, but to be successful competetively I think you need to build your list with two things in mind. The Strategy first and formost, Your opponents faction a close second.

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So a few things...

Papa Loco should be a decent threat to the sort of FILTH list Bill talked about. But if you also run the risk of your opponent second guessing you and taking Zoraida instead. And that can be a very bad thing for Papa Loco. :(

Even without the Governors Proxy, high Wp models are a strong point for the guild. You're not going to be able to consistently win the resist against Lure, but you can at least make it hard for them by taking Ortegas and Death Marshalls.

...In fact, Defensive Stance (specifically the -2wk from defensive stance) will force them to have to make even more successful lures. In combination with some decent Wp it's going to help drain their hand and make it harder to consistently kill the models they're after.

Until they get a Lelu on the board, the only model in this crew that can companion will be the totem. More importantly, Nekima needs to activate before the Lilitu's if the player hopes to get those chain lures off. That guarantees you 1-2 activations at the beginning of the turn before they can start using their little trick. *Certain* guild crews are very good at Alpha-striking, :smugpuppet1 so perhaps that should be part of the game plan? Set yourself up for dealing a butt-load of damage to take out Nekima or Pandora in one or two activations, then clean up the rest in subsequent rounds.

One problem with trying to kill Nekima is that the pair of Lilitu's can heal her up at the end of the turn (for 4 wounds total, plus the 1 wound from nekima's regen of course). Now with the FILTH list they're forced to heal themselves if they don't have Lelu on the board (thanks to two-sided). So if you can't kill Nekima in a single turn, the next best thing is to take out Lelu to force the Lilitus to heal themselves rather than Nekima. Then you can plink at Nekima at a more leasurely pace with Austringers and the like.

Witchling Stalkers. Immolating Demise and to a lesser extent, reflect magic is going to make the Lilitu's think twice about Luring them, and their melee attack can force them to drop cards every time they cast or double take Lure. Then there's Drain Magic. If you can successfully cast it, you can remove the +:masks effect on a Lilitu, greatly reducing the effectiveness of their Lures.

Once she's out, there's also the Witchling Handler from book 3. I don't have the rules for her yet but from what I understand of her, almost everything I said about the Witchling Stalker should also apply to the Handler. ;)

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So if you are playing Single Faction in Gaining Ground, and you have Guild, and you come up agaisnt a Neverborn opponent, do you build an anti-FILTH list, or do you build to the scenario rather than a particular list your opponent may or may not take?

Paradox and I think someone else brought up a good point. We have good ways to take out this list but in a standard tourney with single faction what do you do.

When I list build a tourney I generally stick to this formula. About 50% of my models I am taking based on the faction I am playing. 25% of my units are general good to have models I always take and the last 25% are specialist based on the Strategy and Scheme.

Based on the FILTH list threat looming I think that might 50% Neverborn list will start including an Anti-FILTH elements. Honestly I play a lot of Ortegas so I kinda already have that going for me but I may start dropping an expensive Ortega and bring several cheaper models.

I still don't think its really safe to bring Papa Loco to a Neverborn battle. You are just asking for a Zoriada obey to ruin your day. But if I am 100% sure my opponent is not bring old saggy, then I may bring him along to drop the bomb.

Nix or others who have played this list. Has anyone tried to super obey an Executioner all the way to Nekima and see what happens. I wouldn't do it first turn but maybe turn 3 when you can potential maneuver him with one obey, charge with the next and then free attack with the 3rd. Then of course activate and attack twice(Because he was shotgun wedding'd of course).

The super obey'd Exectioner is a strategy I use a lot for many lists. It overcomes his major draw back(hes slow) and Slow to Die + Loves the Job can improve his survivability greatly.

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Paradox and I think someone else brought up a good point. We have good ways to take out this list but in a standard tourney with single faction what do you do.

When I list build a tourney I generally stick to this formula. About 50% of my models I am taking based on the faction I am playing. 25% of my units are general good to have models I always take and the last 25% are specialist based on the Strategy and Scheme.

Based on the FILTH list threat looming I think that might 50% Neverborn list will start including an Anti-FILTH elements. Honestly I play a lot of Ortegas so I kinda already have that going for me but I may start dropping an expensive Ortega and bring several cheaper models.

I still don't think its really safe to bring Papa Loco to a Neverborn battle. You are just asking for a Zoriada obey to ruin your day. But if I am 100% sure my opponent is not bring old saggy, then I may bring him along to drop the bomb.

Nix or others who have played this list. Has anyone tried to super obey an Executioner all the way to Nekima and see what happens. I wouldn't do it first turn but maybe turn 3 when you can potential maneuver him with one obey, charge with the next and then free attack with the 3rd. Then of course activate and attack twice(Because he was shotgun wedding'd of course).

The super obey'd Exectioner is a strategy I use a lot for many lists. It overcomes his major draw back(hes slow) and Slow to Die + Loves the Job can improve his survivability greatly.

I think the executioner is just as effective as papa loco, with the drawback being you need to wait until the second turn *I think* to do it. you do abuela first, shotgun wedding him, and obey him with her. He is in the open and if the neverborn player went first he would be able to lure him to death. on the second turn you can activate them all at once and hopefully move him out from behind cover.

Thats what I do with papa loco, I just hide him behind cover at the start, or out of LOS from my opponent, so that even if he has zoraida, the doll wont be able to see him from the get go.

Plus, if you win initiative you can do papa loco before he even gets to go.

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defensive stance on a witchling stalker while he has his anti magic aura up is a good counter to a degree. Since multiple chain lures will only slowly get him to where you want him. In addition once he is within 6" the anti magic aura means the shenanigans slow down if not stop all together.

also don't have my book on me but I believe pushes do not ignore models when they move. If you "castle" up your formation especially during the first few turns luring is not as effective. I tend to "castle" up against my friends Seamus crew. It has worked wonders as he is using more AP to position his crew than actually luring mine.

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to go back to something, my rising powers cards are apparently wrong, Nekima DOES have irresistable, as do the Lelitus, and apparently it works the same way as the showgirls, a wp / 12 duel. which cant be ignored by talents. I believe Lady J's spell does allow them ignore that, being its a spell. but I am going to create a post in the rules forum to confirm.

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1) Kill Nekima. I know that seems obvious but its important to state. She needs to die. Also its worth noting she is one big lady(HT 4) so she is virtually unable to find any blocking terrain. So target her with ranged attacks from models who can ignore cover(Nino, Santiago[paired offsets cover]) or focus shots from other range units.

A Stitched will eliminate this possibility. Trust me, the FILTH player also knows that Nekima needs to die, and will find ways to prevent it. :)

2) Hide, Hide, Hide. Don't let the Lilitu get you in LOS unless you have a plan to take them out. Austigers are great for this tactic because they can still hit things while hiding. But Ortega crews can hide and wait there opponent out and then spring a well timed Alpha Strike to bring the hurt.

I can see this, but it also depends on your strategy. Some Guild crews aren't fast enough to complete certain strategies if they're forced into hiding for a couple of rounds.

3) Play your Strategy and Scheme. This is Malifaux 101 but its worth repeating. Its sometimes not a bad idea to sacrifice a few models to the lure of doom, if it ties up your opponents models and you pull of your strategy.

Right on the head here, but I think the current tournament format raises questions, since they are Shared strategies. I think it bears looking at; running Individual strategies as an option may nullify some of the pain that Neverborn currently causes.

So those are my first theorfaux thoughts. I hope to get a crack at this list soon, but worse case I am definitely gonna challenge it at Adepticon when I see Bill, unless he has come up with something even worse by then. :)

Please don't take my answers the wrong way, I applaud what you're trying to do. But right now I have a hard time seeing answers; this list isn't 'unbeatable', but the fact that it takes so much to even potentially offset means you're always going to be playing a chasing game, an uphill climb. The FILTH player (and not just this list, but most Neverborn lists do the same) will almost always be able to dictate the terms of play, as it stands right now.

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A Stitched will eliminate this possibility. Trust me, the FILTH player also knows that Nekima needs to die, and will find ways to prevent it. :)

I assume we are playing 35 ss, which is what I see most tournies at. the filth list will take up 27 points of that, with the other stuff you really should get in (a totem maybe, desperate merc, etc) the stitched will most likely not make it in the list. Even if he does, the austringers ignore his fog.

I can see this, but it also depends on your strategy. Some Guild crews aren't fast enough to complete certain strategies if they're forced into hiding for a couple of rounds.

That will be strategy, and scenery dependant, I agree with you there. Perdita should be fast enough

Right on the head here, but I think the current tournament format raises questions, since they are Shared strategies. I think it bears looking at; running Individual strategies as an option may nullify some of the pain that Neverborn currently causes.

I actually 100% agree with this, I think the shared strategies by and large are terrible, in friendly games I much rather have individual strategies, which gives the tactical situation of A. completing your objective, and b. stopping your opponent. Shared strategies makes that one and the same, which DOES give the advantage to neverborn as you stated.

Please don't take my answers the wrong way, I applaud what you're trying to do. But right now I have a hard time seeing answers; this list isn't 'unbeatable', but the fact that it takes so much to even potentially offset means you're always going to be playing a chasing game, an uphill climb. The FILTH player (and not just this list, but most Neverborn lists do the same) will almost always be able to dictate the terms of play, as it stands right now

I disagree with you here. Players enter tournaments to win, you can't fault them for playing with the most effective options they've been presented. I dont think people using this list are bad people, I think the developers are bad for letting this kind of hijinks in the game.

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Yeah, the Lilitu's had the wrong wording on the card. The wording on Nekima's card is correct for Irresistible though. Hoping they release V2 cards for Rising Powers.

Ratty ruled that lady J's spell does infact ignore it. so the austringer spam remains a reliable and effective counter to this neverborn list.

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To respond to the above poster, I think that what that means is going to be finding the most broadly effective guild crews that are able to offset this beast. From what I've read through here, that seems to be a list heavy on Austringers and/or Witchling Stalkers. Many of the NB lists have a significant amount of spellcasting, so I think the Witchlings are a good call for this, and frankly Austringers are just good enough to be included regardless.

Is Lucius effective enough to be included in generic lists? I've seen a lot of good things with him, but drawing the line between good and tournament effective can be a pretty important distinction, and he's a significant point investment. Of the guardsman/special forces models, I think the Austringers and Hounds are probably the best bet for generic inclusion. I played a Hoffman crew that included a 4 doggies and, next thing you know, his crew goes one way and the dogs go the other and I have 4 dynamite markers armed by mid-turn 2. This impressed me quite a lot, tbh, and I think warrants including them in most games where there is a need for lots of objective snatching...

...Realized I wandered a bit off topic there. Papa Loco I don't love, mainly because if you see you're playing Neverborn and think "Oh, well, I'll include Papa," it's possible that you're even crazier than he is. Matter of fact, the only Ortegas I'm really all that impressed with anymore is Nino and Perdita herself. Santiago has just failed to impress in far too many of my games to warrant being included. Paired is nice, Hard to Kill is...ok I guess.

Something else that occurred to me is that if you're playing a more generic type crew and happen to have a slow to die model (Death Marshal's, Fat Wolverine, etc.) it would probably be worth it to not even bother trying to resist lures. Just let them drag you in and save the big cards in your hand specifically to bash a Lillitu down, particularly if you can use the DMs to put that melee strike bonus on friendly Death Marshals around him. Let her drag them in and kill him, then pop her. You might need to spend the cheat card to get through her irresistible, but you're more likely to at least get some wounds in that way then to burn up all your high cards early unsuccessfully resisting wp checks and then go down futilely.

More to come. Love this thread.

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Please don't take my answers the wrong way, I applaud what you're trying to do. But right now I have a hard time seeing answers; this list isn't 'unbeatable', but the fact that it takes so much to even potentially offset means you're always going to be playing a chasing game, an uphill climb. The FILTH player (and not just this list, but most Neverborn lists do the same) will almost always be able to dictate the terms of play, as it stands right now

I disagree with you here. Players enter tournaments to win, you can't fault them for playing with the most effective options they've been presented. I dont think people using this list are bad people, I think the developers are bad for letting this kind of hijinks in the game.

Oh I don't fault them, sorry if you got that impression. Players, especially the more competitive, will make the best lists they can that give them the best chance to win, I have no problem with that. All I was saying is that right now, most Neverborn lists will more than likely dictate the pace and style of the game, forcing us Guild players to react instead of act.

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