Obey and Framed for Murder

[CannonFodder]

I played a game yesterday where this came up, I'm playing a Bayou gremlin (target of framed for murder) and Perdita Obeyed him to shoot another Bayou Gremlin. He gets the trigger to double damage (on moderate), and that is enough to kill him (2 dmg from reckless before hand).

Do I get the the VP for Framed for murder because Perdita obeyed him causing him to die. Or did he kill himself and Perdita did not kill him making me lose the VP.

We played it as Perdita killing him, because otherwise he would not have shot his own Teamate (on purpose).

[trichloro]

I always thought you couldn't obey a model to do something that would kill themselves. So you wouldn't be able to use the trigger, since it would end up killing the model you were obeying. Am I wrong in this?

If I am, I still think the master themselves need to be the source.

[dgraz]

you can't do anything that causes Wounds to itself. But you can do things that cause Damage.

[trichloro]

You sure? Obey states

Target non-Master model

immediately makes a (1) Action or a Charge controlled by

you. The Action selected may not cause the model to be

killed or sacrificed as part of the Action.

Wouldn't activating the trigger kill the target, so you can't use it while obeying.

[snord]

I was the one playing CannonFodder yesterday and I used the reasoning from the rules marshalls' replies in this thread:

http://www.wyrd-games.net/forum/showpost.php?p=128943&postcount=2

So, the same way as in the Papa Loco's example in the thread, Perdita was able to obey the gremlin to shoot his brother because the action itself would not kill him for sure. The fact that he was able to (1) successfully hit his brother and (2) get the correct suit to activate the trigger that incidentally killed him after was completely dependent on the cards played, and not a sure death.

So, assuming the above reasoning is correct, we agreed that the cause of the death was Perdita's spell giving him the VPs for Frame for Murder, but is this correct as well?

Thanks

[Cadilon]

You sure? Obey states

Target non-Master model

immediately makes a (1) Action or a Charge controlled by

you. The Action selected may not cause the model to be

killed or sacrificed as part of the Action.

Wouldn't activating the trigger kill the target, so you can't use it while obeying.

I don't have a link, but what I've read on the forums stated that if there is a chance, no matter how small (i.e. flipping the black joker), that the model will live after the action, it can be obeyed to do that action. If it ends up dying anyway because of its bad luck, thats too bad. =)

Thats what I recall anyway.

[CannonFodder]

I don't have a link, but what I've read on the forums stated that if there is a chance, no matter how small (i.e. flipping the black joker), that the model will live after the action, it can be obeyed to do that action. If it ends up dying anyway because of its bad luck, thats too bad. =)

Thats what I recall anyway.

That's what I thought, but that applies to cost of actions. Not results of actions (ie Papa Loco and Pierre ravage). Don't know about triggers, is the half damage a cost or effect.

So now a couple questions

1) Original Obey & framed for murder question.

2) Can you use a trigger to damage yourself to death. IE Lucky shot.

2a) if 2 is no, can you do the trigger if you have use soul stone to prevent said damage to live.

[dgraz]

What Cadilon said is correct. The bit about not using it is that you can't self-sacrifice something. There are a lot of abilities that say to do something but remove the model from play or sac the model. Those are the things you can't do - and the bit about the wounds that I originally said. You can cause wounds if it is not enough to actually kill the model.

[trichloro]

1) Original Obey & framed for murder question.

2) Can you use a trigger to damage yourself to death. IE Lucky shot.

2a) if 2 is no, can you do the trigger if you have use soul stone to prevent said damage to live.

1) I would say no, since it was hisown trigger that killed him, not something directly from the master. Just like you can't obey someone for the reclaim Malifaux scheme.

2)I think that was my inital point, while you can obey someone to damage themselves, you just have them kill themselves, but I guess I am wrong on that. SO I guess you can damage yourself to death.

2a)I'm not sure on this one.

[Q'iq'el]

2)I think that was my inital point, while you can obey someone to damage themselves, you just have them kill themselves, but I guess I am wrong on that. SO I guess you can damage yourself to death.

There's a difference between causing wounds, killing outright and scarifying on one hand, and causing damage on the other.

The former group causes an effect which may lead to certain death and you are restricted as to when you can use (you cannot use obey to cause them and you cannot use them out of your own will, IIRC). Basically if you have 5 Wd left and an ability would cause 6 Wd, you *know* the model will die, so it is prohibited.

Damage is different, because damage gets mitigated by other abilities, before it is converted to Wounds.

You may be Hard to Kill for example. OrH have a high Armour. You as a player know if your model can reduce the damage or not in that way, but the game as a system does not - at the stage where you cause Damage anything can still happen and thus it doesn't count as an action that would kill the model.

[trichloro]

I know you can't cause enough wounds to kill the model or do an action to sac its self. But you are saying anything that causes Dg to the model is ok, even if it would end up killing it?

If I obey Pere is cast Oopsie!, when he has 1 wound left, you are saying I can, because it does 5 Dg? Or I can't do it since he doesn't get a resist flip so there is no way to avoid it?

I guess we would need a ruling on Dumb Luck for the first example, as the Lacroixs in book 2 state it does wounds, but the v2 card for the bayou gremlins say damage. So if it was wounds he couldn't have done it, but if it was damage, then he could?

[Q'iq'el]

yup

[snord]

Ok, it seems a line is starting to show up in the sand about what can and cannot be done (although I am still not 100% clear on all situations).

Back to the original question then:

* Perdita casts obey on the gremlin that ends up killing himself with the action. Does it count as Perdita (master) killing the minion for the purposes of Framed for Murder (because the origin of everything was the obey spell) or not?

Thanks

[aka_hazard]

1) ... Just like you can't obey someone for the reclaim Malifaux scheme...

Yes you can.

Whilst being obeyed the model counts as a friendly model and can, if they happen to be stood next to a valid piece of terrain, reclaim Malifaux.

Ruling is here:

http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=22664

It is also valid to perform other (1)Interact actions such as arming explosives in the Line In The Sand strategy.

[trichloro]

Yes you can.

Whilst being obeyed the model counts as a friendly model and can, if they happen to be stood next to a valid piece of terrain, reclaim Malifaux.

Ruling is here:

http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=22664

It is also valid to perform other (1)Interact actions such as arming explosives in the Line In The Sand strategy.

I saw that thread but lost it when weird said they would have to discuss it after gencon. That is cool, I think I may have to use her more for objective games now.

But the main question is, does the person casting obey count as the one killing the model if they force them to kill themselves.

[CannonFodder]

Ok, it seems a line is starting to show up in the sand about what can and cannot be done (although I am still not 100% clear on all situations).

Back to the original question then:

* Perdita casts obey on the gremlin that ends up killing himself with the action. Does it count as Perdita (master) killing the minion for the purposes of Framed for Murder (because the origin of everything was the obey spell) or not?

Thanks

Or is the obeyed models kills the framed for murder model does it count as master killing it.

I'm guessing the slow response is because the Wranglers are confirming before making another decision on a scheme / strategy that may lead to abuse.

[trichloro]

It seems I have been wrong most of this thread, but I am going to say no, as the master did not directly kill the model.

If the model kills itself, then it was the source of the damage and if obeyed model shot the target, then it was the source not the master. That is how I see it, but then again I could be wrong.

[Headcase2]

* Perdita casts obey on the gremlin that ends up killing himself with the action. Does it count as Perdita (master) killing the minion for the purposes of Framed for Murder (because the origin of everything was the obey spell) or not?

No, Perdita didn't kill the Gremlin. She just made him perform a (1) action. The Gremlin was kind enough to kill himself.

[CannonFodder]

No, Perdita didn't kill the Gremlin. She just made him perform a (1) action. The Gremlin was kind enough to kill himself.

My counter argument is the model took the action under the influence of Perdita. Hence it was Perdita who made him take the trigger that killed him. The trigger was Perditas choice to take.

[aka_hazard]

No, Perdita didn't kill the Gremlin. She just made him perform a (1) action. The Gremlin was kind enough to kill himself.

This gets my vote

[Buhallin]

My counter argument is the model took the action under the influence of Perdita. Hence it was Perdita who made him take the trigger that killed him. The trigger was Perditas choice to take.

We've had this same discussion before with things like poison and kill credit. While that's still unresolved, it's generally accepted that Malifaux only looks to first-order effects - that is, direct effects.

Obey does not kill a model. It lets you direct an action with that model, during which time it's a friendly model.

Consider a side-effect: say Perdita Obeys a nephilim and that nephilim kills Copellius. If I remember right, that gives the killer 4 poison counters - who gets the poison? Perdita, or the nephilim? I think in this case it would pretty obviously be the nephilim. Same should apply.

It could lead to some pretty amusing situations, though. I especially like the idea of declaring a Grudge against a minion, then Obeying that minion in a way to kill himself, which should fulfill the Grudge

[CannonFodder]

Like I said before I'm guessing the rules wranglers are staying clear of this thread until there is a concise answer to obey. Without a concise ruling I guess its up top each LGS to decide and make a house rule.

I think Snord and myself count as the local judges for our LGS, and we'll keep the Obey target is under direct control of Perdita so it counts. But that's just for our LGS until officially resolved.