Nix's Trip to the Masters - Gencon 2011 Master of Malifaux

[Q'iq'el]

All in all your theory sounds plausible if you have two Nicodems, otherwise it seems that you are expecting way much of him every turn.

I'm not discussing this in the vacuum, that's all. Whether you need Fog in turn 2 or not depends on the terrain. Chances are, you are behind something blocking LoS now. You don't need Mindless Zombies at first and I didn't say you get them from turn 1. I typically see 1~2 from turn 3, from smartly placed Decays, so no need to power down Bolster either. And yes, Nicodem typically goes first (as Mortimer's companion if you want the counters to Reanimate). Vultures may go before him if you need Eyes and Ears, but that means Nicodem has no LoS to opponent, so he is safe. If they are on the Counter duty, they go last anyway.

[Q'iq'el]

Aaaaand thread degrades into theory-faux. That list is broken beyond belief...I found that one pretty quick reading through book 2 after everyone started picking nekima up...but I never thought about Pandora with it...ugh. I really think thats one of those lists where there are probably only a small minority of crews out there that could give this "FILTH" list any kind of trouble....and Nico is not one of them.

Nico with Canine Remains definitely not. Perhaps I'm over-optimistic with the lists and tactics I propose, but then it is another problem with Pandora, not with Lure/Double Take/Nekima. Put the same combo in Zoraida's or Lilith's list and it becomes more manageable.

Think about it that way, if you have no chance to kill your opponent with Lure/Double-Take, then to even trigger it is suicidal. For Belles to lure something important means to cause it to walk once or twice. If they die from the thing they attracted, they'd be brought back and you get a double bonus - not only you displaced the opponent, but it costed him an activation too.

A Lilitu that lures something big its way commits a suicide unless she kills it. And that's a 7SS model you can't bring back outside of Nephilim crew (and only if Lelu is around). For a normal crew it already is risky enough as is.

Edited August 11, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[nix]

There has been a lot of great discussion in this thread, and it seems strong feelings have been sparked on both sides of the equation. To be fair, there are great points on both sides that seem to be missed.

For Nico, the Fog is critical to stopping the lure shenanigans. It blocks LOS and gives Nico time to move forward and get his crew going. That was one mistake my opponent made in game 2, not using Fog to protect his crew.

On the lure-cycle and flipping cards. In this list (FILTH), the damage is really coming from Pandora's 1 point of damage, not from Lilitu's attacks. What I am hoping for with a long chain of Lures is that my low (4 and below) cards flip on the "free" melee attack or on the typically neg-flip damage attacks. Once the lure target is below half wounds, it gets better as my base damage flip (if the whip hits) is :+fate. With that said, I was regularly running through my deck each turn, regularly leaving only 2-5 cards left un-flipped. Part of the strength to this is I am only typically looking at removing 2 models between the 2 Lilitu's every turn, and if I get 3+ its a bonus. Target Priority and saving high crows to make people run with Pandora is the real strength when playing the FILTH list.

To that point, in testing prior to Gencon, I played several games where I did not get the full lure-chains off. A Nasty chain of lures will sit around 5-6 chained lures on a single cast. I played games where my typical lure chain was only 2-3. Even with this, positioning and target priority become critical. Pandora starts to shine even more when the lure chains do not go off. This was the situation with the Ortega's, where Pandora ended up needing to do the heavy lifting. Typically your targets are the biggest threat to Pandora first, in order to let her contribute most heavily to minimizing the opposing crew.

On the question of slow-to-die, that did not worry me too much. Yes, I may take damage on my Lilitu, but its not typical. Between Nekima's -WP bubble and Irresistible on Nekima and Lilitu, a lot of S2D actions end up failing. When they do not, I am looking to see how devestating the damage is. There is a lot of healing in this list:

• Nekima regenerates herself when she activates
  
• Lilitu's get regen +1 when near Nekima (typically they are near Nekima)
  
• Lelu has Regen +2
  
• Lilitu can heal herself for 2 points at the end of the turn
  
• Whenever Lilitu Regens, Lelu also heals. Whenever Lelu Regens, both Lilitu's heal
  

I will often look to put damage on my Lelu just to get the COH (Circle of Healing) with regens and the end of the turn healing passing across the crew.

I would like to reiterate, my opinion is this is not an unbeatable combo. This is not an unbeatable crew. There are plenty of ways to circumvent or defend against this. Its really nasty, and the only thing I think is "broken" or "Flawed" is the way double-take can become an unbroken chain. Its the combination of "potentially infinite double-take" combined with a really strong combo (resisting lure is pretty tough - CC12 on a cast 8) that makes me see something flawed.

I am really hoping additional discussion on this stays as Civil as it has been!

[Math Mathonwy]

A Lilitu that lures something big its way commits a suicide unless she kills it. And that's a 7SS model you can't bring back outside of Nephilim crew (and only if Lelu is around). For a normal crew it already is risky enough as is.

That's one of those bold claims that I doubt greatly. Irresistable is absolutely huge and will shield her very nicely and if the enemy goes through that her DEF doesn't stink and she has access to healing.

edit

I would like to reiterate, my opinion is this is not an unbeatable combo. This is not an unbeatable crew. There are plenty of ways to circumvent or defend against this. Its really nasty, and the only thing I think is "broken" or "Flawed" is the way double-take can become an unbroken chain. Its the combination of "potentially infinite double-take" combined with a really strong combo (resisting lure is pretty tough - CC12 on a cast 8) that makes me see something flawed.

Oh, I'm pretty sure that no one is arguing that the combo is unbeatable or even nearly so. It's merely too powerful and unfun.

[Q'iq'el]

he really is squishy when things go wrong.

He has the same wound count as Nekima and just 1 Df less than her. Puts things in perspective, doesn't it? He can heal himslef better too. He can hide, she can't.

So Lilitu can get him out of place, perhaps (he has Wp of 7, so he is likely to defend himself still). What prevents Rezzers to get Lilitu, Pandora or Nekima out of place, to reduce the impact of these auras a bit? At least one Belle is quite reasonable choice for a starting crew, and she is better at casting basic Lure than Lilitu. The Neverborn Wp isn't all that impressive either (Basically Nekima vs. Belle = Lilitu vs. Punk Zombie).

Perhaps this argument needs a separate thread, but as far as I'm concerned, I try to discuss this in the context of an entire crew, build to work together. It's far more realistic approach than taking single minions out of context and saying they will have to die, so the ability is OP.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I agree Nix. I don't in anyway think the list is "Broken". My personal feeling is that it is too strong for the reasons I've given. Is the list autowin, no. Is it something that in many ways is bad for the game in m personal opinion, yes. I however have already explained my reasoning so I won't repeat it again.

[Odin1981]

I don't feel it's "unbeatable" but I do believe out of the 20 masters in the game there are maybe 5-6 who even have a chance realistic or otherwise at succeding.

The biggest problem that I see is whoever your facing outside of neverborne (2 crews spring to mind), one arcanist, "maybe" one resser (I think they are the faction most bounced by this style list), and 1 guild and 1 outcast list is that you are a slave to winning initiative and have to have movement tricks to get to the focus (3 whores of the horned variety).

And that is all but efficiently countered by dropping your totem, 1 tot and 2 stones and picking up doppleganger, pretty much ensuring that "your opponent" get maybe one turn act first.

Also one thing worth of note nix:

I know your a henchmen and like the game. I understand that it is a "big event tournament" and there is a "I want to win scenario" but do you honestly think this list is good for the game?

Look at most game systems where tournaments "trickle down" into "casual" areas. You yourself stated in your podcast stated how 1-2 people dropped from the tournament.

Would in all reality this be a list that was worth unveiling? Think about how many people could (exception being competitive types) just glance at a game in a hobby store seeing a list like this in operation and just flat out say F-that game nevermind trying to come into this system.

Granted I play in tournaments and I understand that in a major one you aren't inclined to bring a fuzzy handcuff list and all. But in all reality you admit to it being wholeheartedly a negative play experiance. Do you think this was really a wise decision "as a steward of the game (henchmen)" unleashing it to the hive mind to just copy paste repeat?

[Q'iq'el]

That's one of those bold claims that I doubt greatly. Irresistable is absolutely huge and will shield her very nicely and if the enemy goes through that her DEF doesn't stink and she has access to healing.

Her healing comes at the start of her activation (from Nekima's aura), at the end of the turn and from Lelu. Lelu provides the only healing that can actually help her when she is being targeted by the opponent (assuming Lelu can pull it off at that moment and that you can spare an activation for him quickly enough). On the other side, Nekima's and Lelitu's own healing end up offsetting her health loss if the Lelu is not in play and that's no help against any other damage.

If she drags a fighter close to her, and fails to kill it, she's now stuck in melee. If that model is a true fighter, that's 2~3 strikes landing at her (whether from Combat Expert or flury, the model doesn't have to move to attack her). Irresistible in this particular context can help, but it is not as bad as it could be. Her Wp is only 5 and she'll be flipping at , because she's done damage by that point. Less than 50/50 chances of it working for her, and she can't cheat, while the attacker can.

But more importantly than the damage landing on her, she now can be swarmed by other minions. Unless she Lured at a really long range, she will be in charge range before she gets out of Melee and there may be ranged attacks hitting her too. If it's Decay (which can be reasonably easily cast by a Vulture too, if range is an issue), it will heal the undead swarming her as it damages her. We're talking about 3 models that make up 2/3rd of the crew, wouldn't you burn a Soulstone to finish her off with that Decay?

Am I much more aggressive player than average? Do other people save their Control Hands and Soulstones even if a chance to kill a minion that important appears?

Edited August 11, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[karavak]

I know your a henchmen and like the game. I understand that it is a "big event tournament" and there is a "I want to win scenario" but do you honestly think this list is good for the game?

Look at most game systems where tournaments "trickle down" into "casual" areas. You yourself stated in your podcast stated how 1-2 people dropped from the tournament.

Would in all reality this be a list that was worth unveiling? Think about how many people could (exception being competitive types) just glance at a game in a hobby store seeing a list like this in operation and just flat out say F-that game nevermind trying to come into this system.

Granted I play in tournaments and I understand that in a major one you aren't inclined to bring a fuzzy handcuff list and all. But in all reality you admit to it being wholeheartedly a negative play experiance. Do you think this was really a wise decision "as a steward of the game (henchmen)" unleashing it to the hive mind to just copy paste repeat?

This is off-topic but want to make one note before getting back to the regular topic(s):

I will point out here that Nix wasn't there as a henchman and he was a good guy. I'm not questioning Nix's reasons for the list since it was a tournie and it seemed to bring out a more competitive streak for people.

As I said before, the attitude was very different for the masters than I had seen earlier. More serious, more competitive, more rules discussions but if a game system needs/wants to have a serious tournie with serious competitive lists then I am happy if it stays in "the masters" where myself, a more casual player for sure, will be happy to watch from the sidelines.

And back to our regular topic

[Odin1981]

Karavak I understand what your saying. I understand and am aware he wasn't affiliated with the event in any of its operation. I'm not attacking his stance/position on taking this style of list. I'm just trying to raise a preverbial "you have your right to take what you want, but is there really a reason" style question. Due to like me being a fan of this game "can you honestly say that this will attract the masses" or would it further pad the approach that some have of it being "unbalanced".

I'm not knocking any style of list (casual, competitive, filth). But the question I'm trying to raise is that if people "see" at the "granddaddy of em all" event for gaming a bunch of negative play lists can anyone say that it would attract any but the small minority of "I will win at all costs style players".

I also readily admit to being a tournament player. But atleast to me I bring a style of list that is hard and competitive but doesn't say "screw you your playing my game" because I understand if we the community want this game to further grow and expand to increase our attraction to the game and get a whole lot more of people to become interested and to invest in the game. I would be of the point of view that have a view "Hey I'm a good player, and I can compete and I want to win, but should I really risk poisoning the game to turn off alot of people? I'm of a personal believe that you can bring a hard list still do well or win but make a list that is no joke but still "interactive" (in that they still try to accomplise their things while I do mine).

Also I'm not trying to say you shouldn't try to maximise a win your getting in a tournament or anything of the sort but the thing is lists like this will filter down to the casual settings. And would anyone want to be subjected to seeing a list like this more often than not in a "friendly play setting" where you aren't trying to 8-0 or 8-2 somebody?

Edited August 11, 2011 by Odin1981

[nix]

@Odin - you put me in a tough spot answering your question/query for a number of reasons. Due to those reasons, I am going to try and craft my response carefully.

I am a henchman, and more importantly I am a wildly addicted Malifaux player. To this end I want to see the game grow and really push for more people to have more fun at this game each time they play.

I believe heavily in good sportsmanship in gaming. There are toy-soldiers at the root of the game we play and anyone who loses sight of that fact may have some issues. I strongly believe these games are here for fun, and that is the end-all-be-all goal of gaming. Hell, I have a podcast that started with an incredibly heavy focus on sportsmanship (which will be the topic in an upcoming episode BTW).

I am a competitive gamer, and like a challenge and competition in my strategy games. Miniature wargaming is, at its root, a strategy game and set-up for competition. I am lucky enough to have a very highly skilled and competitive group of players in my local community. They play for fun, and part of the fun in our local group (for at least half the group) is the good natured competition of the game.

So, why would I bring a list to a tournament that I personally labeled FILTH prior to playing it in the tournament? It may seem like a conundrum, but there were several reasons. The first of which is an ongoing taunting that has sprung up in my local play group. Simply put, the joke is that "Bill sucks at Malifaux". This springs from a situation in recent tournaments I have participated in this year. The best example is Adepticon. At Adepticon I played my first round against a newer player, and ended up losing the game due to not playing as hard as I possibly could. I ended up playing back to the top table, competing for first place by the end of 4 rounds. My first rounds loss had a lot to do with my not willing to engage my "killer instinct" vs a new player. This has happened several times.

So, with that in mind, I have received a lot of pressure from my local group to push for a dominating victory in a national tournament. When I had the unexpected chance to attend Gencon this year, we all thought the Masters would be the ideal tournament for this. To that end, I worked against my nature to "pull out all the stops". To be fair, the competition and skill in the Masters certainly helped as I did not once feel I was facing a new player, so felt ok in playing a highly competitive game.

Now, were there other reasons for my choice in list? Simply put, yes. You actually touch on one of the reasons. I think this list is nasty, thus how I named it. I also think it is worse when there is a surprise component to it. Part of my goal to playing the list, discussing the combo, and writing up the reports is to highlight the combo and make sure others can see it clearly. Qi is correct in his premise that discussing the combo in a vacuum is useless. That's one reason I think its valuable to show how the games worked in context of the games. People now have a fantastic platform to "Monday Morning Quarterback" the games and figure out how they would combat the combo presented. This is hugely important (IMHO) to shedding light on the combo and should, over the long haul, actually defeat the "net-listing" aspect of the combo.

Just some basic thoughts.

[pgbsamurai]

While I didn't play against the Filth list when I played Nix I did play against Nekima Lilitu combo in round three. I finally got to see it from the other side. While, yes I can see how it can be frustrating, it is far from unbeatable. The first two matches in the tournament I went up against a C. Hoffman crew who all had immune to influence. I took two Lilitus against them both times (not expecting to see Hoffman). It made it an uphill battle as I had two models that had lost a lot of their utility. Yes, I know that Pandora negates the Immune to Influence, but it is still not impossible to overcome.

The simple fact is that this game, more than most that I have played, has a lot of very powerful abilities. When Mydnight and I first started getting into Malifaux the comment was made, "Wow, that was a really cheesy over powered ability... now it's my turn to do my really cheesy over powered ability.".

There is a big difference between playing a "cheesy" list that you are having fun with, and a "cheesy" list and being a dick with it. For me it really comes down to sportsmanship more than the perceived power of a list. I can say without a doubt that Nix was one of the most sportsmanly players I have ever gone against. It was a very tense match and both of us wanted to win, but we still both had a great time.

A lot of players say Pandora is overpowered and won't play against her in friendly games. I find this really disappointing. I bought her because I liked the models, but her crew sits half painted because I rarely get to use her. Meanwhile I have a lot of Kirai players in my area. I find Kirai quite infuriating because I spend half of my resources taking a model down and it is summoned back the next activation. I still play against her though because I know my friends that play her really like her play style.

In the end I don't think it is overpowered combos that poison a game, but the attitudes of the players that will eventually cause a game to soar or crash.

Edited August 11, 2011 by pgbsamurai

[AgentRock]

I think one of the unfortunate things about this particular combo is that the most intuitive counter to it is just to play Neverborn, in essence driving the meta even further in that direction.

[Q'iq'el]

In the end I don't think it is overpowered combos that poison a game, but the attitudes of the players that will eventually cause a game to soar or crash.

Couldn't agree more.

And a word of advice - paint your Pandora the best you can, and offer a crew swap (temporarily of course) to the friends who don't want to play against her. After 2~3 games they won't have anything against her anymore, especially if you use your knowledge of the crew to beat them to pulp.

[Dolomyte]

I disagree with you entirely Q.

This combo has been seen as overpowered since It was initially discussed (I remember bringing it up in the original OMG cuddle hamelin threads, others agreed and its come up since)

Its not a balanced mechanic, and I think peoples experiences at gencon, what I would consider THE major tournament, say that its a problem that warrants further discussion.

[Dolomyte]

In the end I don't think it is overpowered combos that poison a game, but the attitudes of the players that will eventually cause a game to soar or crash.

edit - im Stupid, im tired and forget my latin.

Basically, players get pissed off because they face $$$$$$$$ like this, and that causes the bad attitudes that cause the game to fail.

Edited August 12, 2011 by Dolomyte

[Odin1981]

@Odin - you put me in a tough spot answering your question/query for a number of reasons. Due to those reasons, I am going to try and craft my response carefully.

I am a henchman, and more importantly I am a wildly addicted Malifaux player. To this end I want to see the game grow and really push for more people to have more fun at this game each time they play.

I believe heavily in good sportsmanship in gaming. There are toy-soldiers at the root of the game we play and anyone who loses sight of that fact may have some issues. I strongly believe these games are here for fun, and that is the end-all-be-all goal of gaming. Hell, I have a podcast that started with an incredibly heavy focus on sportsmanship (which will be the topic in an upcoming episode BTW).

I am a competitive gamer, and like a challenge and competition in my strategy games. Miniature wargaming is, at its root, a strategy game and set-up for competition. I am lucky enough to have a very highly skilled and competitive group of players in my local community. They play for fun, and part of the fun in our local group (for at least half the group) is the good natured competition of the game.

So, why would I bring a list to a tournament that I personally labeled FILTH prior to playing it in the tournament? It may seem like a conundrum, but there were several reasons. The first of which is an ongoing taunting that has sprung up in my local play group. Simply put, the joke is that "Bill sucks at Malifaux". This springs from a situation in recent tournaments I have participated in this year. The best example is Adepticon. At Adepticon I played my first round against a newer player, and ended up losing the game due to not playing as hard as I possibly could. I ended up playing back to the top table, competing for first place by the end of 4 rounds. My first rounds loss had a lot to do with my not willing to engage my "killer instinct" vs a new player. This has happened several times.

So, with that in mind, I have received a lot of pressure from my local group to push for a dominating victory in a national tournament. When I had the unexpected chance to attend Gencon this year, we all thought the Masters would be the ideal tournament for this. To that end, I worked against my nature to "pull out all the stops". To be fair, the competition and skill in the Masters certainly helped as I did not once feel I was facing a new player, so felt ok in playing a highly competitive game.

Now, were there other reasons for my choice in list? Simply put, yes. You actually touch on one of the reasons. I think this list is nasty, thus how I named it. I also think it is worse when there is a surprise component to it. Part of my goal to playing the list, discussing the combo, and writing up the reports is to highlight the combo and make sure others can see it clearly. Qi is correct in his premise that discussing the combo in a vacuum is useless. That's one reason I think its valuable to show how the games worked in context of the games. People now have a fantastic platform to "Monday Morning Quarterback" the games and figure out how they would combat the combo presented. This is hugely important (IMHO) to shedding light on the combo and should, over the long haul, actually defeat the "net-listing" aspect of the combo.

Just some basic thoughts.

Oh don't get me wrong I'm not attacking it (the list), and I appreciate your answer. I do like how you are bringing it into the light to show people with tactical acumen that are willing to point it into the pedestal of "how do I answer the questions this list is asking" component.

To put a little of my personal experiance into this. I recently wrapped up a 6 week league about 1 1/2 months ago. At the start of the league I went to sign up and saw 5-6 guild players out of the 16 or so that were in it. I am primarily a guild player but around one of the stores I frequent they are complained about endlessly.

I had recently picked up a colette crew and got about 1-2 games in with them prior to it. I figured I'd run them and learn a little bit about them and represent the arcanist faction cause there were only 2 other players in it.

The first 3 weeks (actually the whole league was but you know pairings weren't really concrete yet) or so it was a w/l/d and total vp style pairing and I got paired up with people who were fairly new to the game. Now I'm not trying to come off arrogant or anything but I felt bad for 2 of them. I picked up the crew fairly quickly and took off sprinting.

The 2 specifically I felt bad about were games kinda like games 2 and 3 (in the masters) you had where the people had no idea what they were getting involved with. By the end of those games they really felt detached and basically useless (oh what is the duet gonna do now :-( style ). And towards the end when the more experianced players got matched up it wasn't to bad but for the 2 games or so against newer players I really wish I had not picked my faction do to only having 1 crew with them.

It was basically around that time I asked myself the same question I posed to you (I know you have the right , but what is the reason). There is a new league at the same store starting this coming week and I truly hop we meet and or increase the attendance of the last league. This time I'm running lucious and gonna take more of a back seat instead of "running it up". If I'm playing against a more exp player and my order arrives by then I'll suit up sonnia and her avatar but for the "greener" players I'm not going full tilt.

I would like to end this particulary long winded post by saying it is great to particpate in a civil and amiable discussion and I appreciate your time in replying to my posts. Cheers mate.

[Math Mathonwy]

"Unbeatable" is a very silly metric for any discussion. I mean, even the original Nico + canines + the old graverobber rules wasn't "unbeatable". But it certainly wasn't a working-as-intended balanced trick that's good for the game. I feel that here we have a similar situation.

"Broken" is similarly silly a metric as it seems to mean different things to different people. For some reason, many people consider it to mean "unbeatable" or otherwise things so far beyond wacked that they are almost wholly non-likely to be present. Maybe the Confrontation Meliador + Storm of Light-thingy would suffice but that is so far beyond the pale that I've met such a situation once during my over 20 years of minis playing using dozens of different systems.

So we have lots of words that have conditions that will never be met and then people defending unbalanced things by saying that they don't fulfill those ludicrous conditions (as if that would make them fine).

Sorry for the rant, it's just rather a frustrating issue.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Actually, that was a good point. Looking at the original Nico, 10+ Dogs, Graverobber takes an all action to dig up a counter, list. Now please understand I'm not advocating a return to that list, I'm just tossing it in for discussion, but why did that list deserve to be cuddled, (the solution of which took away the ability for Graverobbers across the game to gain counters) and the FILTH list does not. I could once again see the arguments that are being used to say that the FILTH list is perfectly ok, and that the solution is to "play the game". The same could have ben said of that list. Use pulses, use blasts, use auras, use abilities that destroy counters. Really its not like the zombies are that tough, concentrate and your schemes and strats. If the dogs are digging up counters every turn they aren't doing anything that contributes to victory. Just ignore Nicodem and focus on what you need to do to win. Good grief even if he has 40+ Mindless zombies they aren't significant and really that don't hit well. Just save some cards to cheat when they come in to hit you. Not only that but in order for someone to use that list they will have to have all the zombies that they want to use, If someone wants to spend $150+ dollars just to use that list I think they deserve to.

Now once again I'm just using that list as an example, and I really am glad that it no longer exists, but if that list deserved to be fixed, why does this one not?

[pgbsamurai]

edit - im Stupid, im tired and forget my latin.

Basically, players get pissed off because they face $$$$$$$$ like this, and that causes the bad attitudes that cause the game to fail.

If someone wants to play a list like this in a competitive tournament, or the occasional friendly game I don't really have a problem with that. In a tournament I expect to have my opponent throw everything they've got at me. In a friendly game, if someone wants to try out a tough combo I'm not opposed to giving it a try.

If, on the other hand, they only ever bring crews like we've been talking about I may ask them to switch it up as it is not that fun to play against. Not saying they have to abandon their list, just give some other ones a try now and then. If they can't do that then that is an attitude problem with that player, and it is someone who is going to bring the game down.

I find in the gaming community there tend to be two types of gamers. Those that play to have fun, and those that play to win. Now in a tournament setting, yeah there are going to be a lot more people playing to win. There is nothing wrong with that. It is a competition after all. However, in a friendly game the goal should be to have fun, not just to win. If you are playing just to win in a friendly game, you're ultimately going to bring down the experience for your opponent or yourself.

Some of the best games I've played, I've lost. For me, the most fun matches are those that are close. Where both players are challenged and the win could go either way. I don't have fun when I steamroll my opponent, and I don't have fun when they steamroll me.

I will add that this is just my personal opinion. I understand that not everyone will feel the same way. I am also not opposed to Double Take being cuddled a little as it is quite powerful, but I also don't think it is unbeatable.

[Necromorph]

@ Dolo

Agree.

@ Math

Also agree.

@pg

Some of the best games I've played, I've lost. For me, the most fun matches are those that are close. Where both players are challenged and the win could go either way. I don't have fun when I steamroll my opponent, and I don't have fun when they steamroll me.

I agree that the best games are the close ones, but from the sounds of it, this is not going to be the case in tournaments with the list in question. Yes, the enemies should be throwing everything they have at each other, but when one side can throw a lot harder through faction/comp design, it doesn't feel like a fair fight, IMO.

Edited August 12, 2011 by Necromorph

[huntroll]

Now once again I'm just using that list as an example, and I really am glad that it no longer exists, but if that list deserved to be fixed, why does this one not?

Another, more recent example: McMourning and the first turn "Flesh Construct from a Dog" trick, or the improved Rogue Necromancy version with the addition of the Zombie Chihuahua. I understand why it was cuddled (though its still possible to do it by sacrificing the Chihuahua after it cast Wracked with Pain on itself), but there are much worse things introduced in Book 2 (Hamelin, Alp Spam, and this FILTH), which did not get cuddled yet...

[pgbsamurai]

@Necromorph

One of the things I really like about Malifaux is the ability to pick your crew on the fly. You are only limited by your faction and some masters aren't even limited by that. Do I think the Filth list is hard and frustrating to go against? Of course I do, but I can say the same thing of Hamlin with his myriad of ablilities, or Kirai with her spirits that just keep coming back. They are difficult to play against, but there are still chinks in their armor.

With a list like the Filth list, there are a lot of expensive models soaking up soul stones. This gives a pretty good likelyhood of the oponent being able to out activate it. You can use LoS to block models available to lure. You can paralyze Nekima to keep her from granting the extra mask. You can use alpha strikes to take out Nekima or the Lilitus. You can use hold your control cards and let a Slow to Die model be lured right up to Lilitu and put the hurt on her. Will all of these work all of the time? No, but taken together they give you a toolbox to fight back with.

Again, I am not saying that Double take couldn't stand to be cuddled. I am just saying that if you go into it thinking that it is too overpowered, and there is not much you can do to beat it then you will in all likelihood loose. If you go into it saying to yourself, "this is going to be a tough match. What openings can I exploit? Where are his weaknesses?" You are much more likely to put up a good fight and have a good time.

While playing against a list like the Filth list can be frustrating, finding a way to beat it and winning feels really good.

I see the point of a lot of the discussion on this thread is to find those weaknesses.

[SteamHammer]

It doesn't even need to cuddle Double Take. Just clarify that all abilities that push a model towards another end (and cannot be done futher) when those models are in base to base.

[Wulfen]

I think one of the unfortunate things about this particular combo is that the most intuitive counter to it is just to play Neverborn, in essence driving the meta even further in that direction.

You're spot on, here. For two years running Neverborn has dominated GenCon, along with Outcasts. I see no reason for that trend to stop, unless they take a serious look at the faction balance and particular models, which we have all discussed already on various threads and discussions.

I don't know if this means cuddle or bringing other factions to the same level, but something has to change if they want factions well-represented. 33% of the GenCon Master's being Neverborn, on top of top-8 finishes, is as sure a sign as any that there are issues. Some will, but I don't know how you can ignore numbers like that.