Nix's Trip to the Masters - Gencon 2011 Master of Malifaux

[pgbsamurai]

Neverborn is also a popular faction due to fluff and sculpts. That could also contribute to more players playing Neverborn in the tournament, it is just a popular faction. More Neverborn players starting means there will likely be more Neverborn at the top.

There are plenty of ways other factions can beat Neverborn. The Masters was the first time I actually had matches against other Neverborn players. I have been beaten plenty of times by Ressurs and Guild. I can't say much about Archanists as there are none in my area that I've played against and didn't get matched against any in the tournament.

But Neverborn v. Neverborn is not the only way to go.

[Wulfen]

Neverborn is also a popular faction due to fluff and sculpts. That could also contribute to more players playing Neverborn in the tournament, it is just a popular faction. More Neverborn players starting means there will likely be more Neverborn at the top.

There are plenty of ways other factions can beat Neverborn. The Masters was the first time I actually had matches against other Neverborn players. I have been beaten plenty of times by Ressurs and Guild. I can't say much about Archanists as there are none in my area that I've played against and didn't get matched against any in the tournament.

But Neverborn v. Neverborn is not the only way to go.

I'm sorry, but that's not been borne out in the big tourneys, where results are posted and we see who wins. Even at Adepticon, Neverborn and Outcasts came out on top.

At a Master's tournament, folks play to win. It's not a fluff league, or a casual affair, it's a play-to-win mentality. I'm not saying sportsmanship goes out the window, but a tourney of that magnitude is going to draw competitive players.

Locally, we've had at least two guys who played other factions, switch to Neverborn. I just can't believe some people (not saying you, personally) want to gloss over actual posted results for two years running, and basically tell everyone else they need to 'learn to play'. What will it take? Another two years of results, or a year where they have 80% Neverborn/Outcast?

When is enough enough?

I'll step off my soapbox now, but to say that Neverborn is just fine is doing this game and its players a disservice.

[pgbsamurai]

I'm not saying there were not players there that were playing Neverborn because they thought the faction has a better tournament standing. I'm sure there were players with that mindset. I'm just trying to point out that I think a lot of players got pulled into the game because of Neverborn fluff and models. Not saying everyone.

I'm just saying that there were a lot of Neverborn players in the start which will skew the placement numbers toward the Neverborn side.

Maybe Neverborn do have a power edge, but I tend to disagree. I have played against a lot of non Neverborn crews that have kicked my butt.

[nilus]

Locally, we've had at least two guys who played other factions, switch to Neverborn. I just can't believe some people (not saying you, personally) want to gloss over actual posted results for two years running, and basically tell everyone else they need to 'learn to play'. What will it take? Another two years of results, or a year where they have 80% Neverborn/Outcast?

Actually up to Gencon last year, Guild was the one everyone called broken on(I seem to recall that Guild did well in the Masters last year). Most of the Neverborn models that people are saying break the game came with Book 2. So its a years worth of good standings.

We now have book 3, who knows what's going to come out on top. For all we know next year we might be all bitching that Marcus and Nicodem are broken.

Is Neverborn winning because neverborn is broken and thus lots of people play them? Or is Neverborn winning because lot of people play them and thus figure out very good strategies with them? Who knows. I just want to see some Guild winning again and I am determined to make that happen

Edit: There was also some bitching in 2010 about Outcast as well. Mainly Leveticus.

Edited August 12, 2011 by nilus

[pgbsamurai]

@nilus

Well said.

[Wulfen]

I'm not saying there were not players there that were playing Neverborn because they thought the faction has a better tournament standing. I'm sure there were players with that mindset. I'm just trying to point out that I think a lot of players got pulled into the game because of Neverborn fluff and models. Not saying everyone.

I'm just saying that there were a lot of Neverborn players in the start which will skew the placement numbers toward the Neverborn side.

Maybe Neverborn do have a power edge, but I tend to disagree. I have played against a lot of non Neverborn crews that have kicked my butt.

I hear ya, please don't think I'm aiming anything at you, it's just more of a general frustration.

[nix]

I actualy have a real tough time with the "Neverborn is OP"/"Neverborn is better" conversation for a couple reasons. First, I love guild but find that the intricate combo's and play style in the Neverborn fit my mindset better. This makes it really tough to know if the "Neverborn are Better" mentality is accurate, or if the combo's and playstyle just make more sense for me. At the end of the day, I think one of my favorite Guild models is becoming the Lawyer, partly because he operates similar to Neverborn (making things run away, denying specific actions, paralyze, combo-buffing himself).

Now, until our local group noodled through the FILTH list l had every intention of painting up aSonnia and taking her to the masters with a fairly fixed crew. I switched partly for the reasons I mention before. From an all-around standpoint, I think my aSonnia list is better suited for taking a single list to a tournament. It has challenges, but is much better rounded than the FILTH list. The FILTH list is all or nothing in a sense. Even with good play, the down-falls to it are pretty rough and show-stoppers.

What is the aSonnia list I was planning on taking? Here you go:

Guild Crew - 40 - Scrap

Sonnia Criid -- 8 Cache

Attach Avatar [2ss]

Guardian [7ss]

Nino Ortega [7ss]

Witchling Stalker [4ss]

Witchling Stalker [4ss]

12 points remaining for swapping any of the following in:

Executioner [7ss]

Guild Austringer [5ss]

Santiago Ortega [7ss]

Samael Hopkins [8ss]

Death Marshal [4ss]

So, Nilus brought up a good question along the lines of what will be considered overpowered next year. Personally, I expect to see a rise in Resser's with book 3. Ressers got a whole lot of cool new toys (avatars and minions) that really work well with their lists. Add in the release of Molly and I think things get fun. I also expect Guild to make a strong showing at the Masters next year. Justice and Criid are really solid avatars, and once people figure out their play styles I can see them being the new complained about pieces. Add in some of the new minions Guild can take (namely the Warden, Witchling Handler, Pale Rider, and Arcanist Fire Gamin) and I think the lists become pretty nasty.

Just my opinions.

[pgbsamurai]

@Wulfen

No worries. Just having a friendly debate . I can understand the frustation. Kirai frustrates me to no end, but I realize that my crews can frustrate others as well. I just try to keep a level head about the whole thing.

I think Nilus did a better job of summing up what I was trying to say.

Is Neverborn winning because neverborn is broken and thus lots of people play them? Or is Neverborn winning because lot of people play them and thus figure out very good strategies with them? Who knows.

It's a chicken and the egg thing. Which came first?

[Hatchethead]

Personally, I expect to see a rise in Resser's with book 3.

Yay!

Pulls on his OP pants.

[Fetid Strumpet]

To be fair pgbsamurai, in our area at the time I left for the summer there were only 2 Neverborn players, you and another person who isn't on the boards. 3 Resser players, Me, Mydnight, and someone who isn't on the boards, 3 or 4 Guild players who aren't on the boards, and one Gremlins player who also isn't on the boards. You are also one of the better players in the area. So the fact that you don't get to play other Neverborn all that often isn't all that surprising. Also couple this with the fact that most of the players in our area aren't really competitive players.

I have been a competitive player in CCGs for a number of years, and looking at it from that perspective if I had the money, and only cared about winning, I would never take any faction to a Tourney I wanted win other than Outcasts or Neverborn. Outcasts because they have the flexibility to make a variety of powerful lists depending on assigned strat, and the fact that sitting across from Outcasts gives no clue as to what list might pop out. Neverborn because the design philosophy behind their faction emphasizes tricks and synergy more than any other. I would do this not because they are unbeatable, but because from a Win at All Costs mindset you want to go in with every advantage to can get in your corner from the outset.

Now please understand, I do not in anyway say that a good player cannot beat Neverborn, or that the faction is broken. The fact remains however that they are on the stronger end of the power curve than other factions, as a whole. They have more masters generally agreed to be in the upper tiers than other factions, and their minions are more synergistic across the spectrum. In any system where different options are available to players, certain options will inevitably be found to be stronger than others. That doesn't mean that it doesn't take skill to play them, often it does require a great deal of skill to play them correctly. But from a purely statistical examination of them, Neverborn do come out on the upper end of the power curve.

Now do I feel that this is a problem, no. Certain factions are just going to end up there. Do I feel the game is unbalanced, again not really. Neverborn may be a bit stronger, but often that strength can be offset by a number of in game and out game factors. The crux of the issue is that this particular combo is in my opinion a little too strong, and at the same time, creates a severe NPE. The combo is not "broken", it does not create an instant win scenario. To be fair however, Nicodem's 10+ Graverobber Dog list didn't create an instant win scenario either and yet it was definitely worthy of a relook. I feel that this is a similar situation. It is a combo that doesn't require a great deal of skill to employ, doesn't require any exceptional hand, or really any kind of hand to work, requires an immense amount of skill AND luck to survive, and exceptionally unfun to even play against. To me, at that point, it requires looking at.

If I was in charge of rule development I would be examining this issue closely, but it would be awhile before I'd officially change it. I would want to make certain it in the long run was an issue both in the tourney scene and casual scene. Also the fix, should it eventually come, should not involve modifying abilities that other models use as well, like Lure. It should be entirely be fixed via the abilities on the few models that make up this combo. This is my opinion on the matter and by no means the definitive answer however.

Oh, and as a side note, if you think that dealing with Kirai's bringing back models is annoying, let me proxy a Collodi crew against you at some point. He pulls the resser bring models back trick better than we do, is faster than us, and way more synergistic. I have definitely learned to fear the Puppet Hit squad.

[pgbsamurai]

It is not just that Kirai brings things back. It is that they are mostly spirits and are very hard to drop in the first place and then they come right back. It is the thought, "ah, I finally got rid of that model that has been a pain in the butt for the past two rounds.... and now it is right back on the board with full health...." :banghead:

But I diverge from the core conversation.

edit: I love the fluff for Collodi but not really sure his play style mixes with mine. Still want to pick him up eventually though.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I think you'll like him. One of the players in the league I organized over the summer got him, and any time I played against it it felt like my whole crew was balanced just against him and his four Marionettes, and that everything else he took was just freebies. Very frustrating, especially if he gets Plant Evidence.

But enough thread hijacking!

I'm looking forward to the remainder of your gen con podcasts nix!

[AgentRock]

Right. I tend to lean more towards the above poster's point of view. I played ccg's for years before I ever even looked at a minis warfare game. I played Magic through the Necropotence and Tolarian Academy eras and one of my best friends made it a hobby to take new games as they came out, pick apart the card sets, and build the deck that exploited the holes in the game and wins (it got me a trip to Wrestlemania one year, so I can't complain). I have no problem with this, particularly at the level of tournament play, but invariably what happens next in this process is that a correction is made to shift the balance of power around. Sometimes this came in the form of an expansion, some times in the form of errata. The former is likely in the works now, as book 3 stuff comes out. The problem just seems slightly more exaggerated in Malifaux since it requires sculpting time to come out with new models, as opposed to fast printings of a new CCG expansion that puts in counter cards.

As I said, my main trouble with this combo and the state of the meta-game right now is that the best (bold for emphasis) answer to Neverborn is more Neverborn. Yes, I am aware that a good player can win any game. I don't dispute this fact. But it's just a matter of one group potentially starting at a slightly higher tier of power/ability than another, and the best counter being to play that faction as well. This discourages diversity. It is a small sample set to use the national competitive tournaments as be-all end-all data, but it is the data we have and it seems to bear out the theory. That, plus I think the valid argument made above regarding the graverobber/Nicodem changes establishing a precedent of issuing errata to correct for combos that create these sorts of unbalanced/NPE games, and it seems to me at least that action may be warranted.

That said, I'm enjoying the discussion and seeing other view points on the matter.

[nix]

So here is an interesting query:

- Do you (reader) believe that should a player/players begin winning national tournaments with factions other than NB, those factions would then become the wider used faction? The faction considered OP?

[nilus]

- Do you (reader) believe that should a player/players begin winning national tournaments with factions other than NB, those factions would then become the wider used faction? The faction considered OP?

In some circles(namely competitive ones) yes I think it would happen.

There is a certain group of players who are ultra competitive but not really able to come up with there own win strategy. So if someone starts winning with something they will copy it and run.

Honestly after all the talk about FILTH I wonder if Wyrd see an increase in sales of Pandora, Nekima and the Twins.

[tom_ep]

Honestly after all the talk about FILTH I wonder if Wyrd see an increase in sales of Pandora, Nekima and the Twins.

In any case, that already would be some very interesting statistics, how those models sales compare to the rest of it all

[AgentRock]

So here is an interesting query:

- Do you (reader) believe that should a player/players begin winning national tournaments with factions other than NB, those factions would then become the wider used faction? The faction considered OP?

There's certainly a possibility of confirmation bias, to be sure. I do think, however, that there is a certain demographic that goes the other way, ie "Oh man, they think NB are the best? I'll show them!" and turn around to, oh, I don't know, start rallying all the guild players to start building another direction and start a resurgence that way .

[pgbsamurai]

As I said, my main trouble with this combo and the state of the meta-game right now is that the best (bold for emphasis) answer to Neverborn is more Neverborn. Yes, I am aware that a good player can win any game. I don't dispute this fact. But it's just a matter of one group potentially starting at a slightly higher tier of power/ability than another, and the best counter being to play that faction as well. This discourages diversity. It is a small sample set to use the national competitive tournaments as be-all end-all data, but it is the data we have and it seems to bear out the theory. That, plus I think the valid argument made above regarding the graverobber/Nicodem changes establishing a precedent of issuing errata to correct for combos that create these sorts of unbalanced/NPE games, and it seems to me at least that action may be warranted.

That said, I'm enjoying the discussion and seeing other view points on the matter.

I've seen a couple of people say that Neverborn would be the best counter to the Filth list. What in Neverborn would you use to counter it. I honestly see more options to counter in Guild and Ressurs than I do in Neverborn itself.

(not trying to be obtuse, just really don't see Neverborn as that strong against the Filth list.)

[AgentRock]

Zoraida's wp10 makes her more or less un-lureable. Chompy Bits can (and in Bill's case, did) move up the board and kill Nekima on the first turn, which tears the whole thing apart.

Others can comment further, I'm hardly an expert on the matter.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I think sales of Nekima would be the more interesting to track. The twins are just plain awesome for all of the Neverborn masters, so an increase of their sales could be attributed anything. But Nekima really only works well in a few lists, so a definite increase in her sales could be more readily attributed to an increase of FILTH lists.

As to your question Nix, I'm not sure. If the public perceived perception altered in favor of said winning player/players' faction I'd say yes. However, if the win did not significantly alter the perception, I'd say it was doubtful. I'll use the results of Adepticon as a reference, a small sample to be sure, but it does help to illustrate my point.

At the time of Adepticon your friend Dixon won using the Vikkies in most of his games as I remember. Now at the time I remember people being very impressed because prior to Dixon's win the general thinking was that the Vikkies were o.k., but not stellar. I think there is a greater appreciation for their abilities now, but I don't personally see people flocking to the Vikkies because Dixon won with them. They still require a greater understanding of the game, and great tactical play to use very effectively. Add this to the fact that the tournament players that I'm aware of that use the Vikkies tend to use Von Schill, and the general advice is that they regard Von Schill as the real master of the crew, and the Vikkies are meat cutting additions.

Now faction wise the Outcasts offer a great diverse selection of lists and masters. They have some very solid masters, and very solid lists spread across those masters. That is the outcasts Strength. They have done very well in Tournaments lately and seem to be well represented. We have to ask ourselves if this is the case why are the Neverborn the faction that is overwhelmingly the most whined about? My opinion, ease of play and synergies.

Now let me clear this up right at the beginning, I am not saying that playing Neverborn are the "Easy Win Button". I have played a few games with the Dreamer and he does take some getting used to and if you misplay you will get punished very hard. However, when you play against most Neverborn masters you are playing against severe control with multiple minions that are very effective across the whole spectrum of masters, and that is very tough to deal with.

[Wulfen]

Fetid, to add to your comment, I'm pretty sure the Vikki's won the first GenCon tourney, so they have been a strong choice all along.

Agree with the rest of your comments in regards to Neverborn.

[pgbsamurai]

True Z does have a wp10, but that doesn't protect the rest of her minions. She does have the Obey trick to play. Although now that I think about it, a Hex on Nekima could shut it down right there and then.

While Nix did take out my Nekima first activation it cost him his whole hand and he flipped a red joker with a severe kicker for damage. Not something that can always be relied on.

Paralyze is also a good trick with Copelius or Lilitu.

With Guild though, you have Austrigers sitting out of LoS that can beat on Nekima, Alpha strike from the ortegas, Obey from the Ortegas, Stuborn, Papa Loco or Executioner Obey chain.

Ressurs have slow to die, hard to wound, respawning models, more ranged damage spells for nekima, instant die or discard abilities, movement tricks to get up in the opponent's face.

Point being that I don't think going Neverborn is necessarily the best matchup. It has some tricks up it's sleave, but so do other factions.

[WookieeGunner]

Please forgive me if I missed it, but I was curious Nix. I had heard you went from the top two tables (so assumption top four standings) to ninth overall. Was this because the top ten was that close, or does the Gaining Ground rules just allow that big of a jump where the final results aren't "pre-known" like other systems where the first round pretty much sets up the top tables.

[AgentRock]

Right, I forgot that the main deal with Zoraida is that she obeys Nekima every game and has Nekima beat down the Lilitu and generally cause other havoc on top of causing the other problems.

From the battle report, your crew was a fairly well balanced crew. That isn't really the case for the chain-lure list (I'm making an effort to stop calling it FILTH, as I find that to be sort of superlative.) Nekima is a lynch-pin model that makes the whole thing run, and without her it goes back to being a basic Neverborn list which does have some strong pieces, but is not terribly well balanced and has just lost 13 points and the ability to easily grow the tots. The game is far from over at that point, as Pandora is still very much on the board and capable of causing havoc, but it is now significantly more winnable. I don't think you need to necessarily go up and take Nekima out first turn, and I get the impression that Bill had to stretch to make that happen, but the Dreamer crew's minions are probably all going to be out of sight and thus free from being lured until the threat has been dealt with.

[Wulfen]

BTW Nix, did you get all the stuff you bought at the booth all in order? I was the guy behind you on Thursday morning, thankfully only buying the book and about four models.