Nix's Trip to the Masters - Gencon 2011 Master of Malifaux

[wrabbit37]

I ran a similar list a while ago against a buddy of mine and after one game, shelved it. It's not that it's unbeatable, but it's just a complete negative play experience for your opponent. I do not believe something like this was intended, and it's just another wacky combination that gives Neverborn a bad name. We can win without this stuff - this stuff just makes people hate us.

I'd like to see Double-Take changed, either stopping it in B2B or being more strict and limiting it to once per activation like aZoraida's trigger. In lists outside of the Nekima/Lilitu list, it will have very little impact. It'll just limit this particular one.

[Q'iq'el]

I was trying to figure out where this came from, and then a friend of mine explained it to me (thanks WRabbit). I am not recommending that Lure be changed at all. What I think should be changed is Double Take. I can see either of these changes working without breaking anything:

1. Double-Take cannot trigger if the target is in B2B with the caster
   
2. Double-Take only triggers 1 time (per turn or per cast), similar to aZoraida's Master of Manipulation trigger.
   

This is only an issue when you bring Nekima though, isn't it?

There was a huge argument about Double Take back when the Book 2 arrived, and the designers, back then, said it is going to stay (IIRC). The simple reason is that alone Lilitu can pull such a chain only if she has a very good hand and even then the opponent can do his best to cheat and stop it.

With Nekima around things change, but that is a very expensive combo to bring. And there are multiple tools, in every faction, to deal with such a threat, even if it is always challenging (it should be, if it is 2/3 of the crew!).

In other words, if you cuddle Lure or Double Take, you hurt everyone who brings the siblings without Nekima. If you cuddle Nekima, you cuddle one of the most expensive models in the game, which isn't all that survivable, against determined opponent.

[Hatchethead]

I'm not sure if it is the filth of the Nix' list' date=' really. I think the Nicodem's list wasn't all that good.[/quote']

Fair enough, though my query stemmed from nix stating his list was filthy and broken independent of this particular encounter, a conclusion he appears to have formed prior to Gencon.

[nix]

This is only an issue when you bring Nekima though, isn't it?

Currently it is only an issue with Nekima, partly due to the negative WP bubble Nekima puts up and partly due to the giving out of masks on the cast. I agree with your assessment of changing Nekima, and agree its only an issue with Nekima and the Girls together. I would go further to say that the chain is extra nasty when Pandora is put in.

As for double-take, I am not convinced changing double-take in the ways mentioned actually cuddles it. Being able to get a free cast of double take once per cast or once per activation is still a great ability. Stopping double-take triggering when the target is in B2B also keeps it as a great ability. In both those cases, you remove some of the NPE that the current combo has.

Just some observations. The feedback I have received on my thoughts is identical to your argument against the change. The list and the combo is certainly not unbeatable. It is incredibly difficult to overcome. Nekima plus Lilitu is a one-trick-pony, very true. Add Pandora in there and now your trick got nastier, and you gain a second (possibly third) trick in Pandora. This list has some really bad match-ups as well, so can be defeated by a good player. When its working, however, it is demoralizing and a real NPE for the opponent.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I'm wondering if this specific combo was utilized during playtesting, and what he thoughts on it were. If something like this exact combo hit the playtesters currently, what the thoughts would be. I don't know really if it needs to be fixed, it just seems a little too strong to me. I honestly don't want Wyrd to change things every time the "net" screams about some perceived issue, but adjusting things every once in awhile based on the larger field of players I think would be justified. This *might* be one of those times?

[nix]

Fair enough, though my query stemmed from nix stating his list was filthy and broken independent of this particular encounter, a conclusion he appears to have formed prior to Gencon.

Very true, I did decide on this list for Gencon due to the nature of the combo. I will say that my two Gencon rounds (2/3) above were far nastier than the games I played prior to Gencon testing this list out. Even with that said, the list was fairly filthy in its operation testing against:

• Kirai
  
• Hamelin
  
• Perdita
  
• Vik's
  
• Criid
  

The only pre-gencon lists that hamstrung it were Zorry and Dreamer, bringing me to the conclusion that pitting it against Neverborn was a bad match-up.

Again, these are just my opinions, nothing to take as gospel. I think there is some great discussion around this as well!

[Q'iq'el]

Wouldn't adding to Lure be enough to stop B2B tricks?

And even then I'm not convinced it is really needed. Part of the problem is with the opponent. Why is he allowing the Lure to go through if it is so important for him to keep the model? Why isn't he cheating with a high card? Terrible Beauty is a 6" aura - most of the time initial casts of Lure will land outside of its range, so anyone has a chance to stop them, before he gets into deep trouble.

Considering your crew has only so many activations per turn, due to few models, the need to hold on to high cards is lower. There's, obviously, a risk assessment involved and someone may want to save the cards to stop Pandora, but that's not a problem - that's part of the skill.

[Thalaric]

The problem of adding to Lure is that you're unnecessarily hurting other models with it where this isn't a problem, like the Belles.

The problem really is with the way Double Take interacts with Nekima, there's plenty of ways around it, but you have to come prepared for it, and in a tournament setting that means you could be weakening your matchup against other NB masters. And if you cheat a high card to stop the first Lure, they'll just recast Lure and start the chain over again.

It's not like the NB need this trick to win, the problem is that it is just demoralizing to watch your opponent go "ok that model 18" away is going to die, that second model 18" away is going to die, and I still have another girl who hasn't activated yet." So the easiest fix is to change Double Take in the ways that Nix suggested upthread.

[Fetid Strumpet]

The problem isn't with Lure itself, though. I think changing Lure in anyway would be a bad thing because I seriously doubt anyone thinks the Rotten Belles are too strong. Change Lure itself and you cuddle them. The issue is the interaction between Lure, Dark Beauty, Double take, and Nekima's Nephilim Heart.

Yes, you can try to cheat to save the model that is the target of the lure, the issue is that statistically that will still not save you. This list often brings two Lilitu's, which equates to six casts of Lure per turn. With the guaranteed success of Double Take, it really only needs one successful Lure chain to go through before your model is dead. The fact that the casting stat starts at 8 for the casting already makes it very hard to resist lures.

Even if you have enough high cards to cheat and beat three of the lures, that still leaves three more coming at you, and once the chain begins you can most likely kiss that model goodbye, because even if the repeated whip strikes to the face don't kill you, the bonded Lelu who goes next will. In addition, now you are using all your high cards every turn to attempt to defend against the other players trick, and aren't using them for anything else you might need.

I'm not saying this combo is "OMG cuddles it the world is ending", I just don't think it is as easy to get around as it might appear. If the developers think that this an issue that needs correcting I think the best place would be to alter Double Take or Nephilim Heart, as these are the main culprits in this combo.

My personal favored changes, if changes need to be done, would be either:

1: change Double Take so that it functions Once per model per turn. (It is double take after all, not quintuple take)

2: Change Nephilim Heart so that the extra suit is only good on the first action the affected models utilize which uses the added suit.

My preferred change for ease and clarity would be #1.

Thoughts on this?

[Q'iq'el]

It's been discussed already. The trick has been play tested. It's only unbeatable if you assume the opponent isn't playing the game at all.

Is it powerful? Sure! For 27 points you can field 5 Punk Zombies - not only The NB players would lack APs to lure them all, but each Punk can kill Lilitu with his Slow to Die action. Just an example to illustrate what it means to bring just three models at such a price.

And while we are at the opponents options, why aren't the models, in this hypothetical combat, hidden from Lilitus? Where is severe terrain, rivers, ht3 walls? How about all the Los blocking spells?

[Hatchethead]

I find this all very interesting and timely. Book 2 v2 stat card redemption is almost certainly on the distant horizon. I wonder what, if anything, Wyrd will do to combat the perceived power creep. With the exception of maybe Pandora herself, the majority of ill will directed toward Neverborn (deserved or otherwise) appears to stem from Book 2 minions and the Dreamer.

I suppose the same could be said of Kirai, Colette and Hamelin (obviously) ...

... but that's another discussion entirely.

[nix]

Lots of great discussion, and I really hope it does not stop. I would feel remiss if I did not post my final game.

Round 4 found me at the second table, with only 4 unbeaten players in the tournament. In first place was Bunniegodd with his Mohawk of Doom!!!

Followed by Dixon (The Pharoh) aka DarcXON who got munched on by a Beholder earlier in the day:

PgBSamurai (Palmer) was close behind Dixon and was my opponent:

Strategy in this round was Shared Reconnoiter, and I knew Palmer was playing Neverborn. I had seen him pull out Dreamer earlier in the tournament, and also saw him pull out Nekima and a single Lilitu earlier. With that in mind, I chose to go Dreamer instead of my FILTH list. The FILTH list was working well for me, but it just was not a strong match vs Neverborn, especially with the chance Chompy hits the table.

That said, I pulled out my reliable Chompy list, specifically geared toward Reconnoiter.

The Dreamer -- 7 Cache

3 Daydreams [6ss]

Alp [3ss]

Alp [3ss]

Alp [3ss]

Coppelius [9ss]

Insidious Madness [4ss]

Stitched Together [5ss]

Stitched Together [5ss]

Across from me Palmer turned out the following list (I think):

Lilith, Mother of Monsters -- 6 Cache

Primordial Magic [2ss]

Lelu [7ss]

Lilitu [7ss]

Nekima, The Dark Sibling [13ss]

Terror Tot Nephilim [3ss]

Terror Tot Nephilim [3ss]

Terror Tot Nephilim [3ss]

Ouch. I will admit I was a bit surprised to not see Chompy as I was at least partially expecting a mirror match on this. Looking at his crew I had some choices to make on schemes. I had pre-picked some schemes prior to the tournament that I knew would work well with both crews I was planning to take, and also fit with a variety of strategies. Of those, I only had a couple left. I knew I was going with Breakthrough, as it compliments Reconnoiter without putting all my eggs in the proverbial one basket. Its also a pretty straight forward scheme with Dreamer. I scanned through the rest and decided I would go with Grudge. I looked at his crew and realized a couple things:

• I cannot grudge the Tot, they will disappear when they grow and I lose out on Grudge
  
• Grudge on the totem is not wise, as its too easy for him to just kill his own totem
  
• Grudge on Nekima is not wise, as I need Chompy to take her down reliably in this list.
  

That left me with the two twins. I decided to Grudge Lilitu, as I planned to hop out and paralyze her anyway to avoid the lures. With my plan set, we got ready to start the game.

So, my schemes were Grudge (Lilitu) and Breakthrough, his were Kill Protege (Coppelius) and Reclaim Malifaux.

This is a good time to point out where my head was at in this round. I was not overly happy with my scheme, but had settled on using grudge. I knew that to have any chance at first place, I needed Dixon to beat Bunniegodd and I needed to get as many points as possible beating Palmer. Dixon was only at +12 for his differential, so I went into the game ahead of him on the first tie breaker.

In retrospect, some of these thoughts contribute to my loss overall. Again, purely in hindsight:

1. Grudge was a really bad choice to take when the only melee hitters in my list were Coppelius and Chompy.
   
2. During the game I kept doggedly pursuing grudge, instead of giving up one of my schemes for lost and focusing on the rest
   
3. My list was good for reconnoiter, but knowing I was facing NB, this would have been a better list (which is another Chompy list I regularly play)
   

Neverborn Crew - 40 - Scrap

The Dreamer -- 6 Cache

3 Daydreams [6ss]

Coppelius [9ss]

Lelu [7ss]

Lilitu [7ss]

Stitched Together [5ss]

Stitched Together [5ss]

That said, lets get back to the game.

Our board was a fairly standard Terraclips set-up for the tournament, with a number of buildings, arched court-yards, and such scattered liberally around the table. I set-up behind a building in my deployment zone slightly back from the line. I was set-up to prime the Alp bomb and then bury to move down the table. He set-up on the line, in a straight line across the front of his deployment zone. He set Nekima in the middle, directly on the far side of an arched courtyard, directly across from my crew. We flipped initiative and I got first turn.

Seeing a list with Nekima as a lynch-pin, I knew I had to do something to her early to knock her down or slow her down. Knowing my opponent was at the top tables (so a high-caliber player) and a Neverborn player, I decided there was no need for subtlety. I activated Dreamer and 2 daydreams on companion and moved down the board. Using the Dreamer movement tricks I land Chompy within 1 inch of Nekima on the first activation, leaving Chompy with 1 Melee Expert and 1 AP left to use. The troubling factor at this point was I had to cheat 2 cards to get the casts off to do this.

I flipped my melee expert attack to be quickly reminded by Bunniegodd (it was so nice of him to watch out game , perhaps he was nervous?:aetsch:) "What about Irresistible?". Crap, we forgot that. I asked Palmer how he wanted to handle it, and we agreed to use the first card of the paired flip for the WP, then flip a new card for the attack. The first card passed, no worries, I discard it and flip a second card onto the paired. I believe he cheated higher to push the damage to a neg flip, but I still had a ram to trigger onslaught. Weak damage. I flip the irresistible for onslaught and have to cheat to pass (down to a hand of 3 cards, still holding an 11:tomes) and take attack #2. Paired flip, on damage, and another 2 damage. I move to my first AP, flip for irresistible, cheat again to pass (2 cards), he cheats up, I do not have a ram so I throw the 11:tomes for "All Done" and stone to push for a higher total aiming for a straight flip. I flip a 1 or 2 and am still at a on the damage flip. Damn, I was only able to bring Nekima down half way, that's disappointing. I flip the first damage card and a Severe (I think it was a 12) comes up. Further disapointment (which Palmer felt with me... very cool opponent). I flip the second card for the and its the Red Joker. Damn, good luck finally. Palmer and I look at each other then I flip the additional card into the Red Joker. Another Severe (I think it was a 13). Nekima crumples to a 12 point hit and Chompy turns back into a little boy. Palmer is cool as ice with this, but I am pretty sure he was crying a little on the inside, I know I would have been. :smugpuppet2

The still-to-activate companioned daydream re-summons Chompy and puts him to sleep to pull dreamer back to my deployment zone, which I have to cheat my last card in my hand to accomplish. First activation of the game, I burn 6 cards and a soulstone, but get a kill on Nekima before he activated. I am willing to trade that.

The turn proceeds with him shifting forward and me continuing to prime my nightmares with Defensive Stance and such. At the end of the first turn, I try and bury everything with my last Daydream and fail to flip the necessary card. Very disappointing. At the end of the turn, Palmer has reclaimed 4 quadrants of the board, I have killed Nekima, and his Twins have shifted forward toward the middle of the board, separated a fair amount.

Turn 2, I draw my hand and have 1 decent card (something like a 10) and 5 cards fairly evenly split between 1's and 2's. I may have had a 3 in my hand, but I am not sure. Palmer gets initiative and activates Lilitu, moves around a bit, and lures Coppelius forward. I resist the double-take on the lure and activate Coppelius. Coppelius moves over to Lilitu, attacks and plucks out an eye. I figure I have the crow for the trigger now, so I should grab the eye and then attack on my second round to paralyze her. The Tot (the only living model around) does not run from the eye-plucking, I attack again, and fail my irresistible check. Lelu activates and charges Coppelius. Hits Coppelius, attacks with his Melee Expert and our flips leave him at a on his damage. He flips the first card and its a weak. Yay me! He flips his second card and its the Red Joker. In a wonderfully karmic play, he flips the additional damage card for the red joker and its another severe. Coppelius goes down in a pool of goo.

At this point the game gets incredibly intense. For the rest of round 2, through to round 4 (or 5) we have a back-and-forth running battle of my trying to maneuver to get melee attacks on Lilitu and him moving around the board to grab his reclaim malifaux. I spend 2 turns trying to take down Lilith with Alps and a stitched together before successfully taking her down. He whirlwinds and kills 2 alps before missing 1. (after becoming slow). It was an incredibly challenging game, fought tooth and nail throughout.

We come to the final activations of the final round and the board is as such:

• Palmer has all 9 sections of the board reclaimed (2 points)
  
• Palmer killed Coppelius (2 points)
  
• From my side of the board:
  
  • He has Lilitu in the far right board quarter, near the center line of his deployment zone
    
  • He has 1 tot (wounded with 2 wounds remaining) on the back of the board, mid way across the far left of his deployment zone (I guesstimate ~8 inches from the tot on the right).
    
  • He has a tot mid-way to my deployment zone on the left.
    
  • He has nothing in my back right deployment zone
    
  • I have my stitched in my back right quarter (1 point)
    
  • I have the Insidious madness just over the line in my left hand board quarter.
    
  • I have dreamer, an Alp, and a day dream left to activate.
    

Basically I have 1 chance to pull this out.

I activate Dreamer and a Daydream on companion, buries the insidious madness and the alp, and passes. Dreamer decides he can fly, moves into the far left quarter, and summons all his friends (cheating to get all my friends). I put the Alp as far forward toward the Tot as possible, and the Madness back to contest the near left hand quarter. Alp activates (Palmer was out of activations) and charges the Tot, ending on the far board edge 1 inch away from the tot. Charge attack flips and I miss the tot with nothing in hand to cheat to hit. Game over.

If I had been able to hit the tot and get at least moderate damage, the damage plus the slow effect would have killed it and summoned another alp, which would have put 2 significant models in his deployment zone for my breakthrough and contested the far right quarter. The end of the game ended as follows:

• Palmer:
  
  • Reclaim Malifaux (2 points)
    
  • Kill Protege (2 points)
    
  • Shared Reconnoiter (1 point)
    

  [*]Bill

  • Grudge (0 points)
    
  • Breakthrough (0 points)
    
  • Shared Reconnoiter (1 point)
    

For a 5/1 loss. My final record was:

• 2 Win, 1 Loss, 1 Draw (7TP)
  
• +12 Diff
  
• 23vp
  
• 9th place
  

It was an incredible day with some fantastic opponents. I would like to think I gave my opponents fun yet challenging games, and I hope I challenged Palmer, as he certainly challenged me. Everyone was fantastic and great sports. I went from a draw to the second to top table playing for 2nd place. Not too bad for a tournament showing in my book.

Next year I plan on winning.

Edited August 10, 2011 by nix

[snord]

IMHO, the difference between crews like Hamelin, Dreamer, Kirai, etc and this combo is that a player still needs some skill to efficiently play those crews.

I could argue that you can teach a gamer to play Malifaux, give him this Lilitu/Nekima list and pitch him against other players and he will win 90% of his games, just following the recipe turn after turn. But, more important than anything else, it is just not fun...

I think Nix suggestions are simple enough and would not have any negative impact on NB crews other than preventing abuse.

My .02c.

[Hatchethead]

Thank you nix! An excellent series of battle reports and food for thought. Congratulations on your showing.

For me it all boils down to ease of use. If Combo A is overtly powerful and can be run successfully with relative ease, and likewise requires an opponent to pull out every trick in the book to mount a viable counter; feeling like he's always on the back foot, always on the brink of disaster, one mistake and the whole house of cards comes crashing down ... there's something wrong.

It's not so much that Combo A cannot be countered, it's that the amount of effort, luck and tactical acumen required to be successful in doing so is disproportionate.

I'm not saying that this is the case with regard to nix's FILTH list, merely a broad generalization.

[pgbsamurai]

It was a great final match for the last game of the tournament. I did cry a little inside when Nekima went down before I even got to activate. Not so much that she was key to my strategies, but because I had been stressing to get her painted for the tournament. I hadn't used her all weekend and was looking forward to pulling her out. At least she touched the board.

I did have an "Oh Crap!" moment when she first went down, but quickly realized that it cost Nix his whole hand which gave me some leverage for the rest of the turn. I was also thinking, "just focus on your strat a schemes". I had been saving Reclaim Malifaux in hopes that I could pair it up with Recon. One of my favorite strat scheme pair ups. Especially with my fast Lilith crew.

Over all I think it was the most fun match up I have played since starting Malifaux. Nix is a great player and was just a lot of fun to play against.

[nilus]

Did you guys know the strategies ahead of time? Were they flipped each round or set by the TO?

[Fetid Strumpet]

Ahhh Palmer, mine ancient enemy. As a small tidbit of info for you Nix, when Palmer first got his dreamer crew I advocated his listening to your dreaming in Malifaux episode to improve his skills with the dreamer!

Sounds like a good game overall.

Back to the Double Take discussion, Q'iq'el, I have to respectfully disagree with you that this particular combo's counter is "play the game". I've given my reasons for why this is so, I see that in our particular case they haven't swayed you. For my part I have to wonder if this exact combo was playtested and found to be ok, I wonder what combos are actually stopped by playtesting as the NPE that Nix mentions is so high on this particular example. Seriously, this particular combo requires you to react, and have good luck on terrain and cards to overcome it. That to me says too strong. If I have a combo I can bring out that through no real skill on my part forces you to react rather than take action the whole game. That requires immense luck of card draw to even resist part of it for a single turn, and lucky terrain placement to obscure enough of the board to stay out of LoS of two models entirely while completing my objectives or face annihilation, at that point I'd have to say our particular definitions of what is within the realms of intended balance are very different. You very well may have a point in that this combo is not too strong, I however disagree. I will state for the record that I don't believe that the combo is broken however.

[nix]

Did you guys know the strategies ahead of time? Were they flipped each round or set by the TO?

They were set each round by the TO.

[nix]

Ahhh Palmer, mine ancient enemy. As a small tidbit of info for you Nix, when Palmer first got his dreamer crew I advocated his listening to your dreaming in Malifaux episode to improve his skills with the dreamer!

Sounds like a good game overall.

I appreciate that Fetid, and I have to say that if Palmer is a solid representative of the players in your area, I need to get over there.

Dixon and I talked a lot about the overall skill at the top tables of the tournament all day. While it was only a 30 player tournament, the skill level was high throughout the day. Speaking for myself, I was very pleased to see the skill level of my opponents rise with each new game. A lot of local (and not so local) tournaments I have been to over the past year are heavily played by new players with only a couple seasoned Malifaux players there. This is not a bad thing, as it means the community is growing as a whole. It was really nice that none of my opponents appeared to be really new to the game. I would happily play any of them again and feel that the challenge in the game would be comparable to the challenge in my local competitive group.

[Borthcollective]

Can you give us a faction breakdown of the top 10 players?

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

Can you give us a faction breakdown of the top 10 players?

Zee will be handling that when he gets the time to do so.

Nix was a little busy playing in the event.

[pgbsamurai]

Going from memory, I think the top 8 were 6 Neverborn and two Outcasts. I could be off on that, but i know for sure that the top 8 were all Neverborn and Outcasts. I know 1st was Neverborn, 2nd was Neverborn, and I think 3rd was Outcast.

If Zee ever gets unburied from Gencon orders, maybe he will post the rankings.

[nix]

Zee will be handling that when he gets the time to do so.

Nix was a little busy playing in the event.

Apparently I was so into my last game that I yelled at Dixon for Zee talking to me. As I understand it, Zee said something to me (which I have no idea what it was) and my response was to snap "Play your own damn game Dixon!" at Dixon who was right next to me.

Dixon had me laughing with that story on Sunday.

[Hatchethead]

Just curious:

NPE = negative player experience?

[nix]

Just curious:

NPE = negative player experience?

Thats it.