Dreamer Vs. Dreamer Mirror Match

[CalmPlains]

So here's the deal, my LGS is hosting a Malifaux Call to Arms (buy and paint 35+ss crew in 4 weeks). Following this (ends Aug 7) we are playing a for fun tournament to get to know the game and local players.

Of the 17 entrants, most of us are newbs. Would you believe that NO ONE of the 17 chose Guild OR Resurrectionists!

Anyways, 5 people including myself have chosen the Dreamer, so I am looking for some tips on The Dreamer vs. Dreamer mirror match, at 35ss scrap.

I plan to have the following models completed on time:

Dreamer, LCB

Daydream

Daydream

Daydream

Stitched Together

Stitched Together

Coppelius

Teddy

Alp

Alp

Alp

Insidous Madness, mayyyyybe two.

looking for advice on:

* list composition

* best schemes

* tricks + tips

Thanks in advance for any and all assistance!

Cheers

CP

Edit: oh, and yes I have read and continue to read the Dreamer Tactica

Edited July 25, 2011 by CalmPlains

[Mike3838]

Hopefully Mythicfox will weigh in on this one. He won the Malifaux tournament with Chompy over the weekend, and two if his wins were mirror matches.

One of those games was won (and 6 turns played!) in less than 15 mins - due to a clever use of Paralyzed, which I find particularly amusing. The lesson would be, don't leave your only two models on the board stood right next to each other if your opponent brings Coppelius!

Mike

[CalmPlains]

Hopefully Mythicfox will weigh in on this one. He won the Malifaux tournament with Chompy over the weekend, and two if his wins were mirror matches.

One of those games was won (and 6 turns played!) in less than 15 mins - due to a clever use of Paralyzed, which I find particularly amusing. The lesson would be, don't leave your only two models on the board stood right next to each other if your opponent brings Coppelius!

Mike

WOW! I can see where that is going...

Would love to hear all about it if you are out there Mythicfox!

[mythicFOX]

Wanted to spend a little time thinking about this response before I posted, so sorry for the delay.

In the game Mike's talking about my opponent only deployed two The Dreamer and a single Daydream. He activated first and after the usual shenanigans wound up with LCB holding his treasure counter in the middle of the board, with the daydream in base contact. I couldn't let the opportunity pass me by, I dropped Coppelius on them, he unhinged the daydream and hit LCB with his claws. My opponent didn't take another activation all game. The game lasted about 30mins, and I won 8-4 (he got 2vp for treasure and 2vp for bodyguard).

That said I don't think you can realy on this in most games

My thoughts on Dreamer/LCB mirror matches;

Take 3 daydreams. Shadowy form is limited protection in this matchup as it's reasonably easy to place Nightmares in places they can strike The Dreamer. Daydreams will let you keep your mobility up while keeping The Dreamer safe.

Activation control is important. A few Alps deployed in a corner will help you force your opponent commit to their moves for the turn before you do. Note that I don't think the Alp Bomb is actually that powerful as an offensive option here, Alps just make cheap bodies. There may be some mileage in a defensive cluster of Alps. Long term Night Terrors may turn out to be better options.

Paralyze is strong in this matchup, most nightmares have low Df and you can unhinge daydreams with Coppelius and The Dreamer. Nightmares will also hold onto Paralyze whilst buried, which is nice.

My list (given your models) would look something like...

Dreamer/LCB

3x Daydreams (6ss)

Coppelius (9ss)

3x Alps (9ss)

2x Stitched Together (10ss)

6ss Cache

All IMHO, and based mostly on theory-faux with a little experience thrown in.

Happy to discuss.

[Allidor]

This is all theoryfaux, since I'm the only player my at LGS that playes Dreamer, but if I were to come across another player, in addition to all of the paralysis shenannigans mentioned, these are some things I'd do:

- Take down his Daydreams fast. This prevents a lot of his shuffling, and limits LCBs ability to turn back into the Dreamer.

-Take out isolated models. If he has a lone model that's further out than the others, take it out with LCB and then suck LCB up with a Daydream when you're done. If you have the time, you can even get a Lillitu and a Lelu and have Lillitu create an isolated model for you by luring a model, then send in a heavy hitter like Lelu to kill it.

-Be wary of nightmare sneezing, as your opponent can do it too! Nightmare sneezing is what I like to call it when Dreamer drops a ton of nightmares all over your opponent. Works great on other people, especially if you've been slowly whittling down his force by killing loners with LCB. If it's with another Dreamer player though, he can do the exact same thing to you, so be wary of leaving yourself defenseless.

-With the Dreamer vs Dreamer, it could turn into a game of chicken, where each side gets closer without dropping their payload. I would bring models that can simultaneously activate (Lelus and Lillitus) to go for more of an alpha strike when you finally do make contact.

[CalmPlains]

My thoughts on Dreamer/LCB mirror matches;

Take 3 daydreams. Shadowy form is limited protection in this matchup as it's reasonably easy to place Nightmares in places they can strike The Dreamer. Daydreams will let you keep your mobility up while keeping The Dreamer safe.

Activation control is important. A few Alps deployed in a corner will help you force your opponent commit to their moves for the turn before you do. Note that I don't think the Alp Bomb is actually that powerful as an offensive option here, Alps just make cheap bodies. There may be some mileage in a defensive cluster of Alps. Long term Night Terrors may turn out to be better options.

Paralyze is strong in this matchup, most nightmares have low Df and you can unhinge daydreams with Coppelius and The Dreamer. Nightmares will also hold onto Paralyze whilst buried, which is nice.

My list (given your models) would look something like...

Dreamer/LCB

3x Daydreams (6ss)

Coppelius (9ss)

3x Alps (9ss)

2x Stitched Together (10ss)

6ss Cache

All IMHO, and based mostly on theory-faux with a little experience thrown in.

Happy to discuss.

Some really great advice in there, and I thank you for taking some time to break it down for me! I like the list you put out a lot, although (of course) I will be not to have Teddy on board, but he can come in for other games hopefully.

I have a few vital questions:

Assuming I field the list above, which models should I deploy at game start, and how should they be deployed (formation etc)?

Also, which schemes are best to choose in this match-up?

This is all theoryfaux, since I'm the only player my at LGS that playes Dreamer, but if I were to come across another player, in addition to all of the paralysis shenannigans mentioned, these are some things I'd do:

- Take down his Daydreams fast. This prevents a lot of his shuffling, and limits LCBs ability to turn back into the Dreamer.

-Take out isolated models. If he has a lone model that's further out than the others, take it out with LCB and then suck LCB up with a Daydream when you're done. If you have the time, you can even get a Lillitu and a Lelu and have Lillitu create an isolated model for you by luring a model, then send in a heavy hitter like Lelu to kill it.

-Be wary of nightmare sneezing, as your opponent can do it too! Nightmare sneezing is what I like to call it when Dreamer drops a ton of nightmares all over your opponent. Works great on other people, especially if you've been slowly whittling down his force by killing loners with LCB. If it's with another Dreamer player though, he can do the exact same thing to you, so be wary of leaving yourself defenseless.

-With the Dreamer vs Dreamer, it could turn into a game of chicken, where each side gets closer without dropping their payload. I would bring models that can simultaneously activate (Lelus and Lillitus) to go for more of an alpha strike when you finally do make contact.

Sadly, I will not be picking up the twins just yet, it is taking me a long time to get used to the idea of having the ugly one in my crew. But I picked up a lilith crew on Ebay, so its inevitable that I will want those two sometime soon.

Thanks for taking the time to put some advice down for me, it is very much appreciated!

[mythicFOX]

Again sorry about the delay in responding, wanted to think a bit about this. Obviously this is fairly situational but generally speaking;

I'd deploy The Dreamer about half way along the length of your DZ almost touching the back board edge. I’d deploy a single Stitched Together directly in front of him in base contact. I’d surround those with the Alps.

This gives you a defensive position, the other crew should then be unable to target the dreamer directly thanks to the Stitched, and as the Stitched can’t die until the end of the turn that should stop him being killed by an enemy alpha-strike. The Alps should make any nightmares dropped on you take some damage as they activate against you.

I’d then place the Daydreams behind cover as far forward as my DZ will allow. One of those Daydreams should be within 6” of the Alps and Stitched Together. This will give you the option to pick up the Alps should you want to drop them from somewhere else later in the turn.

I’d progress my opening activations by simply activating each Alp in turn and taking a defensive stances and passing the last action. That should give you three (four if you do the same with a Stitched) activations before you have to commit to a move with an important model.

Thinking of schemes I’ve really struggled with these.

Kidnap and Grudge are hard to pull off because models are easy to hide. The mobility of your enemy makes Hold Out and Breakthrough tough. Reclaim Malifaux is also going to be a challenge.

Bodyguard is a logical choice, beyond that I’m not sure. I might be tempted to take Kill Protégé with a view to not scoring two VP but making an opponent think twice before committing Teddy / Coppellus to the scrum. You can use Assassinate in the same way. If you need the two points Stake a Claim is an option as it’s fairly easy to do in the final activations of a game.

So I’d go: Bodyguard and Kill Protégé or Body Guard and Stake a Claim.

All IMHO.