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Hamelin is better than we think


magicpockets

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@Mike

Honestly...he's a Master and he's part of the game. Yes he is strong, but he's part of the game one way or the other. If people start throwing out the old "Oh, well you only won because you played Hamelin," argument then you can just look at them and say "Oh I'm sorry, I missed that part in the rules where it says I have to give a s**t if you think a Master is fair or not." Honestly, I'd be more put off by someone Alp Bombing or Nekima/Lilitu Lure Spamming their way to victory than using Hamelin. Using a cheezy tactic is much more douchy than bringing a particular master. I too fell in love with him from his fluff and the rats/Nix tbh, that was well before all the flame posts about him being OP started.

@Odin

Oh ballz...what are you bringing now...Jack Daw? I can't really think of anything really annoying that she can bring from within her own faction...other than Cassandra/Duet that is, lol. (Also you said "him" so that was a big part of my guess, lol...since most of her models are "her"'s.)

Edited by Necromorph
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I think the main reason Rising Powers masters tend to come across as more powerful is simply because they tend to bring with them a new dynamic to the game, that players with book 1 masters are not used to. The increased mobility/numbers being the obvious examples. But those crews have their weaknesses. usually relying on only a couple of models dishing out the hurt, and generally being more fragile if caught out.

I definately agree that the Rising Powers Masters/ crews have a very different dynamic or feel then a lot of the book 1 stuff. There were however several things in Book 1 that also had this. Those things were re-balanced or clarified, and the ruleset tightened up. If players never talked or complained about the "strong" models/ abilities/ interactions, then things would never get fixed. An example of this is the neccesary errata for Hamelin's Indiscrimanant Void or the original broken interaction of Some'r Teeth Jones, Skeeters, & Survival of the fittest resulting in an "Infinite Red Joker Draw". Re-balancing is a necessary part of game design.

Learn to fight them and you learn to beat them as well as any other master. That's my 2 cents worth. But I appreciate the viewpoint of others.

Though this is good advice for newer players, it loses a lot of credibility when experienced players (both with Malifaux and other game systems) are seeing the same problems with models/ abilites/ interactions. I have plenty of experience playing with and against all the Rising Powers models and can say that several are in need of re-balancing.

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@ Bigmike:

Parroting what Necromorph says "He is part of the game" and I guruanty you wont be the only Hamelin player there. He is tough but beatable. I would venture that most of the players in the Gencon tourny's are going to be well versed in countering the "stronger" lists.

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If people start throwing out the old "Oh, well you only won because you played Hamelin,"

)

I get this a lot, whether I'm playing Zoraida, Pandora, Hamelin... there is a definite pattern. One of the UKs best players (I'm not going to name him as he loves himself too much already ;)) has started with Marcus just to shut people up!

I have plenty of experience playing with and against all the Rising Powers models and can say that several are in need of re-balancing.

Power creep arguments aside, I disagree with this sentiment. I am happy to take a number of masters in a tourny from book one and can comfortably beat Collette, LCB and co with them.

However, there is a definite pattern here. The powerful masters are the ones with strange mechanics and interactions (Collette, Dreamer/LCB, Hamelin, Kirai, Pandora, Leveticus, Zoraida to a degree) so my question is whether they're "over powered" of if most people don't have enough experience of playing against them so they think they are?

I remember the first time I played against LCB (MythicFox at Maelstrom tourny) and I was bricking myself as I had no idea what he was doing. Now I understand the mechanic I'm more than happy to play him - I recently took on one of Florida's best players and he was running his unbeaten LCB tourny list, unbeaten until I killed everything bar his master in TURN ONE with Pandora.

Personally I really think the key is investing the time learning, prepping and playing against each master. Sure there's a big element of how capable a player you are, but if you don't know your opponent you're going to get pasted.

Like someone said above, I'd bet most of the people dissing Hamelin (and other "broken" masters) haven't played them other than the one or two games when they first saw them and got annihilated. So of course they're going to moan about them. But in truth having now played Hamelin extensively I don't think there's a single "broken" master in the game - just ones you have to get to understand.

Whew....rant over ;)

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:ditto:

What he said! Know thine enemy, and aslong as your a better player/strategist than they are you should win. That for me is the crux of the isse, knowing your opponents master and minions and how to deal with them.

Just look at Jack Daw for example!!

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I have to agree maybe on some newbie players coming from GW may be tricked by a few things. But veteran gamers can see a pattern/combos forming and adjust their game. Though I got into malifaux in the beginning i'll admit that i don't play it as often as i would like.

But as a someone who has played miniature war games for roughly 12+ years across many different systems/rule sets. I can get into just about any game and see the applications of units.

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just to shut people up!

Not strictly true Adam, I'm doing it for the same reason I used ogres/orcs/beasts in WFB or mumaks in LoTR, because I like the challenge and don't always care where I finish. I like having to think about lists and stuff rather than just plonking down one that I know will win 80% of the time, which I think my lists up to now have been and Ash well and truley outplayed me last friday.

Unless you weren't refering to me ;)

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Like someone said above, I'd bet most of the people dissing Hamelin (and other "broken" masters) haven't played them other than the one or two games when they first saw them and got annihilated. So of course they're going to moan about them.

I would agree that a lot of the cries of "broken" models/ abilities/ interactions come from inexperience, however not all of the comments are coming from that group. I know his tricks and he is still very strong (not broken). He is beatable, however it is far from an "even" game. It is sort of like playing with a handicap.

Know thine enemy, and aslong as your a better player/strategist than they are you should win. That for me is the crux of the isse, knowing your opponents master and minions and how to deal with them.
Not always possible when the Strategies are randomly determined. It is also more difficult when one side has a marked advantage in several of the strategies (due to mobility and sheer numbers).

The arguement that experience will win the day isn't really demonstrated when several of the examples cited show that even experienced players with purpose built anti-Hamelin lists couldn't produce the win in a competitve event.

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@OmenBringer, me and Magic are playing this evening, Hamelin v Colette. I am using an all round list, not one tailored to take on Hamelin. Granted it is a Rising powers Master, but may show (if I win which would be a first against Magic...) that Hamelin can be beaten through sheer application of tactics and positioning....I have a few new tricks up my sleeve d6HtPvTOKRlJIYhuQsveMgpe7A0YKUnDqXy7vnZ91u76BCw6lprKgRKobe7bb+BEXZpE2cMkxVAAAAAElFTkSuQmCC

@ ukrocky, next time we play mate, take your best list, i'm interested to see how I fare against your winning force?!

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Ya know...I did some talking with a long time competitive gamer friend of mine yesterday who's played damn near every mini game system out there, and we came to some conclusions regarding Hamelin, other Power Masters, and the game in general.

In a competitive environment, and as the game stands in it's current form, I don't really think Malifaux is a game system that is balanced for competitive play (Let the flame begin...since I know many of you will disagree for a variety of reasons). The fact of the matter is there are so many masters and so many abilities that making true balance is really quite difficult, so I'm not placing blame anywhere. However, there are some Masters who are just going to have an edge no matter what. You could walk around a tournament before each round starts and 9/10 times predict who will win based on their crew. Of course there are other factors like players kill, but really, unless you're in the top 1-5% of players, you're not going to be able to compete with a Master that isn't "top teir," (well win...I guess being competitive and winning should be differentiated).

Also, and I think this is in reference to another post entirely, but it does have some bearing here. The time limit for tournament games is what 85-90min? We've heard before that this can lead to games only being played in 4 turns due to the nature of certain crews. This is really not right, sure the usual reply is "Well you just have to plan for that", no, you shouldn't, the game is designed to be played in 6 turns not 4. Certain masters (Like Hamelin) can take longer to complete a turn than others. Malifaux is a very rules heavy game and a lot of critical thinking is often necessary in a lot of your activations, this can slow the game down as well (especially if it is a close game between two evenly matched crews/players). This of course can lead to abuse by certain Power Crews that have the ability to stall and then jump in and snag a couple easy VP's for a 2-0 or 4-2 type win, and some masters just won't be able to get enough accomplished to fulfil their goals in the game.

So what's the point of all this? Well, all this bickering about which Master is a bigger douchebag is really irrelivant. There are always Masters that can counter comp others, and there will always be Masters who walk all over 90% of the other Masters...Just like there will be prodigy power gamers who will always do well regardless. I'm not in any way bashing Malifaux, and I love the game, but it is a relatively new game and there are balancing issues that will need to (and I'm sure will be) addressed in following books. Yes there are Masters who far surpass others, but then when book 3 comes out we'll see another swing and the cycle will repeat itself and we'll see another rise of top teir crews that people will attempt to have cuddled....and then we wait a year for that to happen with v2 cards, new book, etc.

/climbs down from his :soapbox:

Edited by Necromorph
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In a competitive environment, and as the game stands in it's current form, I don't really think Malifaux is a game system that is balanced for competitive play

Heh, no mini game really is, at all, in fact, neither is any sporting event...I don't see this as an issue tbh, so I think malifaux is fine for competitive play :)

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Played game my Colette crew V Magic's Hamelin crew, battle report will be posted up in due course wink.gif

Hopefully demonstrates some tactics to utilise and positional points to consider... Magic will be posting up the report and I will add any comments to clarify a bit more what happened...from my perspective anyway

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Hamelin in Melee is dirty! ignoring positive and negative flips,then cheating up damage to severe for 9 points of damage?!

Swar them with rats, Rat catcher with Armour 2 and heal up easily, can just rush Ortegas. Nix will cuddle any big hitters. The extra moves you gain from impetuous, kil all rats, summon rats and move forward again in a single turn will leave the Ortegas with little time to kill your core models!

Insignifacant is only 1 approach you can use in Hamelin crew, the rest is also very effective.

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However, there are some Masters who are just going to have an edge no matter what. You could walk around a tournament before each round starts and 9/10 times predict who will win based on their crew.

Agree 100%, but like ukrocky says - what game is balanced? Whether it's Malifaux, the Superbowl, The World Cup or the war in Afghanistan - there's unbalance which you need to counter, tactics you can use to try and give you the edge, and a whole lot of luck. Also, you could say the game IS balanced as anyone can take any crew - if you take Rasputina in a competitive tourny you deserve to have your ass handed to you.

The time limit for tournament games is what 85-90min? We've heard before that this can lead to games only being played in 4 turns due to the nature of certain crews. This is really not right, sure the usual reply is "Well you just have to plan for that", no, you shouldn't, the game is designed to be played in 6 turns not 4.

The game lasts a maximum of six turns (bar flipping) and it's fair because everyone is in the same boat - if I had 5 turns and you had 3 turns that wouldn't be fair.

Certain masters (Like Hamelin) can take longer to complete a turn than others.

This is more down to the experience, pre-thinking and skill of the player - I can play Hamelin quicker than most people play their own crews. The only slow up is the inevitable "huh, erm...why is Nix doing that again?" :)

This of course can lead to abuse by certain Power Crews that have the ability to stall and then jump in and snag a couple easy VP's for a 2-0 or 4-2 type win, and some masters just won't be able to get enough accomplished to fulfil their goals in the game.

This is a bigger problem in Gaining Ground as a 4-3 win is just as valuable as an 8-0 win unless scores are tied at the end of the day. However, I stand by my point that you pick your own crew so this is down to you -and of course stalling should be tackled by the TO and should never become an issue.

I'm not in any way bashing Malifaux, and I love the game

Quoted this so my quotes above don't take your post out of context, I know you're arguing this constructively ;)

Heh, no mini game really is, at all, in fact, neither is any sporting event...I don't see this as an issue tbh, so I think malifaux is fine for competitive play :)

Agree

Played game my Colette crew V Magic's Hamelin crew, battle report will be posted up in due course wink.gif

...Magic will be posting up the report and I will add any comments to clarify a bit more what happened...from my perspective anyway

Cheers for that lol, I'll get right to it ;)

i actually have a question how do you guys deal with perdita as hamelin all of the crew pretty much having shrug off negates the effectiveness of the insignificant debuffs quite a bit.

Shrug off is great but it limits what else you can do iirc by using APs, and if you have to cheat to get it to work I get a card. And like Drake says, insignificant is just one way for Hamelin to work - he works just as well as a sledge hammer with him and Nix in your face, or I can obey your crew to start shooting itself up. It's a tough match for sure, but Perdita always is ;)

Hamelin in Melee is dirty! ignoring positive and negative flips,then cheating up damage to severe for 9 points of damage?!

:D

Edited by magicpockets
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The game lasts a maximum of six turns (bar flipping) and it's fair because everyone is in the same boat - if I had 5 turns and you had 3 turns that wouldn't be fair.

That is definitely not the case.

Page 73: "Malifaux Encounter lasts 6 turns but may carry on ever longer".

It's true that Gaining grounds proposed quite a limited time for the games (I can't imagine finishing a Scrap in one hour or one hour and a half, even if it's just 35 soulstones), but that doesn't change the fact that you are supposed to do at least 6 turns in this time.

And that is seriously unfair, because there are multiple crews which have snowball effects and tend to be stronger and stronger as game progresses (Nicodem being the best example). These crews tend to be slower and depriving them of the turn 5 and 6 stacks the cards against them heavily and promotes the fast masters who can engage the opponent and claim objectives as soon as possible.

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IF Malifaux keeps its competative gaming format(s) focused on the Strategies/Schemes aspect of the game, I think there is some hope.

I think it also requires ALOT of work and pruning to keep the Strats and Schemes in balance and not just "Kill stuff/Win" situations.

The fact that a crew can get absolutely wiped out, but win via scenario in the process is an important, even key, factor of this game.

Even so, as it stands, my experiences vs Hamelin levae me not ever wanting to play against him again. Doesn't matter who the players is. I'd rather forfeit the game. I'd have more fun watching other people play and eating a loss than have to grind through another game vs Hamelin. It's not even so much a power-level issue as it is a pure lack of involvment/fun issue.

I'm beginning to feel alot the same about Pandora, but I'm not quite there yet. There, at least, I feel I still have something to do about it. Maybe.

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Even so, as it stands, my experiences vs Hamelin levae me not ever wanting to play against him again. Doesn't matter who the players is. I'd rather forfeit the game. I'd have more fun watching other people play and eating a loss than have to grind through another game vs Hamelin. It's not even so much a power-level issue as it is a pure lack of involvment/fun issue.

I'm beginning to feel alot the same about Pandora, but I'm not quite there yet. There, at least, I feel I still have something to do about it. Maybe.

I have to say, i'd rather play against Hamelin, atleast there are only a couple of models to prioritise and kill, and his crew dont really stop you doing your own thing. Pandora cuddles you and causes your stuff to just die with little you can do about it. That I have seen anyway, yet to feel that pain myself...

However, I have faired well against Hamelin in all 3 games now, even with my game this evening, where it was Shared Reconnoiter,and there was a Creepy Structure in the middle of the board pumping out Soul Stones for Hamelin!! Dirty combination for him, but I still did well cos I know his game dynamic and know how to contend with him now

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I fail to see your logic. Either that or you have never seen someone play Rasputina properly. She is devastating, and I have personally seen her take on all comers.

Really? I can only guess you've never seen someone play Pandora, Zoraida, LCB , Collette, Hamelin, Kirai... properly. If I drew a Rasputina player in a tourny I'd consider I'd been given a bye. Also, I've heard many times on the UK tourny scene that the best players should take a Tina crew as a handicap (there's actually threads on here to that effect) - there can't be that many people making a mistake about how awesome she actually is?

Anyways, my point wasn't that Rasputina is a roll-over, but that if you pick a "weak" crew in a tourny that's your decision and you shouldn't complain when you lose. Same as when playing a sports video game - if you choose a weak team to play as, don't be surprised when you get beaten by someone controlling the best team.

Having said that, there's little satisfaction in taking a power crew and winning a tourny - at the last big UK event the top three players (me, MythicFox and ukrocky) all agreed to move away from our Neverborn crews as they were too powerful (ukrocky has even started with Marcus, that's a polar shift for you!). And if I'd have known how Hamelin actually plays I'd have steered clear of him and likely gone Guild.

So yes Hamelin is a "power crew", but no more so than the other top 5 crews, and when it comes to tourny's it's YOUR fault if you lose because of your crew selection/play skill, not Wyrd's for failing to balance them out (which personally I think would be impossible).

---------------

DISCLAIMER: I know the above sounds a bit ranty, but it's not meant to - I just get irritated by people who complain about losing (especially in a tournament setting) because they make bad crew decisions or want to hide their own lack of skill behind "how unbalanced their/their opponent's crew is".

If it's a friendly game and your opponent is a d*ck, walk away. On the other hand, if you're playing in the Superbowl you should leave the reserves on the bench and bring your A Game - and if that isn't good enough you don't complain about how unfair it was that the other team had better players.

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