Hamelin is better than we think

[ZiggyQubert]

I actual find it kind of hilarious that everyone is saying that Hamelin should have some changes made to him, and everyone is saying that he he needs to be toned down, and there is still an argument on weather or not he is broke or overpowered or not.

We all agree that a few changes need to be made to him, cant we just leave it at that, and weather he qualifies as broken or overpowered is a moot point.

[Bigmike]

Ziggy....:amen:

[Sandwich]

I actual find it kind of hilarious that everyone is saying that Hamelin should have some changes made to him, and everyone is saying that he he needs to be toned down, and there is still an argument on weather or not he is broke or overpowered or not.

We all agree that a few changes need to be made to him, cant we just leave it at that, and weather he qualifies as broken or overpowered is a moot point.

I'm on your boat.

But I also want to get a word in edgewise on that argument because I know some people who got into Malifaux, saw how bad the argument over Hamelin on the forums got, and decided it'd be best if we just not play the game at all.

So I do want to make sure he's not considered OP, but instead the much nicer sounding "imbalanced."

I say this because a single 4 point guild model can absolutely wreck Hamelin.

I'm sure each faction has a model but its been so long since I've picked up that book or played a game I simply cannot remember.

The ressers have Hanged, though.

[Omenbringer]

Due to the limitations on the crew, a counter is very easily built.

Not really substantiated by the anecdotal evidence that has been provided (in this thread or the earlier one). Several of the opponents Magick faced knew Hamelin's tricks and designed lists to counter him and still couldn't produce the win.

"Very easily"? That's a pretty bold claim, don't you think?

I mean, it's obviously possible that everyone magicpockets played in the tournament that spawned this thread sucked fiercely, but I'd say that the more likely hypothesis is that it isn't quite so "very easy" as you say.

@ Sandwich, several times "easy" counters were offered in this thread and all were quickly shot down by the Hamelin players as not effective at all.

I have played with and against Hamelin for longer then most, I can admit that he is very "imbalanced" and really bad for the game (and I am a big fan of his).

I'm on your boat.

But I also want to get a word in edgewise on that argument because I know some people who got into Malifaux, saw how bad the argument over Hamelin on the forums got, and decided it'd be best if we just not play the game at all.

So I do want to make sure he's not considered OP, but instead the much nicer sounding "imbalanced."

I say this because a single 4 point guild model can absolutely wreck Hamelin.

I'm sure each faction has a model but its been so long since I've picked up that book or played a game I simply cannot remember.

The ressers have Hanged, though.

If a single Master/ Crew/ Interaction can make players decide "it'd be best if we just not play the game at all", then it needs to be fixed. Whether you call it "OP", "Broken", "strong", or "imbalanced" the effect is the same. He needs to be re-balanced (carefully so as not to lose his character) and several good recommendations have been made throughout this thread. Granted it is probably going to be seen as a super cuddle, but so far in this thread even the Hamelin players have agreed (reluctantly perhaps) that he does need it.

Additionally I am rather interested in the 4 SS Guild model that you believe can "absolutely wreck Hamelin".

[Dumb Luck]

Remove Bully. That is all.

[magicpockets]

Remove Bully. That is all.

Any particular reason you feel that way?

[Necromorph]

Look at his sig....he plays a whole lotta Gremlins...and they are in a whole lotta trouble vs Ham. Not that removing Bully is a viable solution, but still.

I understand the argument about Hamelin making people "not want to play" or "not have fun." Hell, most of you have seen my posts about Guild...I hate the entire faction. The whole faction makes me want to just walk away when I have to play them...It's not that they're unbeatable, quite the opposite, but they're just not fun to play against for me at all. So should we take away their built in crits, lower their damage/stats and pick apart their core units to make them less of a pain in the ass? No. Hamelin needs changes, but he shouldn't be cuddled into the ground.

After our last league, myself and Odin decided not to use Hamelin or Colette in league play, because there were a fair amount of new people in the league and we didn't want to turn anyone away. Granted I only used Hamelin 2/6 games, and they were against Odin and another experienced player, but we're just not going to play the power masters for that very reason...we don't want people to "quit the game over it." Obviously Malifaux should be fun, and you've all heard why I think that masters like Colette aren't spoken of much in the "omg cuddle!" circle. However, I have faith that Wyrd will balance Hamelin out, either through changing his specifically, adding good counters to book 3, or a bit of both.

Edited June 25, 2011 by Necromorph

[magicpockets]

Remove Bully. That is all.

Any particular reason you feel that way?

Look at his sig....he plays a whole lotta Gremlins...and they are in a whole lotta trouble vs Ham.

Yes, I got that. It was a joke

[Necromorph]

Hahaha...indeed. Yeah it does suck pretty bad for Gremlins. All the more reason to make Bully a TN duel...although their WP is pretty low anyway.

[Sandwich]

Not really substantiated by the anecdotal evidence that has been provided (in this thread or the earlier one). Several of the opponents Magick faced knew Hamelin's tricks and designed lists to counter him and still couldn't produce the win.

@ Sandwich, several times "easy" counters were offered in this thread and all were quickly shot down by the Hamelin players as not effective at all.

I have played with and against Hamelin for longer then most, I can admit that he is very "imbalanced" and really bad for the game (and I am a big fan of his).

If a single Master/ Crew/ Interaction can make players decide "it'd be best if we just not play the game at all", then it needs to be fixed. Whether you call it "OP", "Broken", "strong", or "imbalanced" the effect is the same. He needs to be re-balanced (carefully so as not to lose his character) and several good recommendations have been made throughout this thread. Granted it is probably going to be seen as a super cuddle, but so far in this thread even the Hamelin players have agreed (reluctantly perhaps) that he does need it.

Additionally I am rather interested in the 4 SS Guild model that you believe can "absolutely wreck Hamelin".

You've hit it pretty hard on the head.

That all said, balancing Hamelin can be very difficult because he's in a spot right now where if you take anything, he's too weak, and if you give anything, he's far too overpowered.

I think the changes you, Magic and Drake have brought up would work to make him balanced to those who know his innerworkings and to those in an official tournament, but in an unexperienced enviroment, he's still going to be gamebreakingly overpowered because his learning curve is so strange.

When his tricks and trades are learned, it almost becomes mathematical in how to beat him, but before you really have time to learn what the f*ck he does, its just overwhelming.

Between the Rat Swarm, the Stolen spam, Bully, Irresistible Lure, Understand the Soulless, Ruffian and so forth people just come to say "$$$$$$$$ it, lets do something else."

And I sympathize with Wyrd because Hamelin really is a cool master to play with and against.

He's just your standard "wtfomg crew" that every mini game has.

If it wasn't Hamelin getting pegged with the title, it'd be Colette, and if not Colette, then Pandora, or Perdita, or whoever.

- - - - - -

To anyone reading, a summary of proposed changes and reasons being are,

Supported by Magicpockets, Sandwich, Necromorph

1.) Lure Malifaux Citizen:

Currently, (1)Lure Malifaux Citizen is a (1) action that states "Summon one The Stolen. This Action may be taken once per turn."

The proposed change is

(1)Lure Malifaux Citizen

(CC:13 /Rst:-/Rg:C)

Summon one The Stolen. This Spell may be cast once per crew, per turn.

The idea behind this change is that currently Hamelin can summon a Stolen each turn with no difficulty, effectively making a well played Hamelin unstoppable. At its base, the change works to increase difficulty of an already killed Hamelin from returning. In its extent, it will not break Hamelin's basic playstyle because it will now allow his Wretch to summon The Stolen for him pre-death, making the Obedient Wretch a must have. Which in further extent actually also helps to slow down the unstoppable Rat Swarm,because that'll be two less points spent on a Rat to start.

2.) Bully:

Currently, Bully states "This model cannot be targeted by Ht 1 or Insignificant models."

This is flat out broken and no one is going to argue that.

With 4 different and very easy ways to make any model on the field Insignificant. (The Stolen's (All)Abandon, Malifaux Rat's (1)Overrun by Vermin, Hamelin's (1)Understand the Soulless, Hamelin's Trigger Cb(:masks)Haunting Melody [Pipes])

The proposed change is

"Bully: Ht 1 and Insignificant models must win a Wp->13 duel to target this model. This Ability may not be ignored."

This removes his 100% invulnerability while still placing punishment on Insignificant models. There is no reliable way to banish Ht 1 models from targeting Hamelin without wrecking an enemy crew that relies on Ht 1 models, but if the Ht 1 restriction were removed, Hamelin would be outswarmed by Gremlins hands down. Its an unfortunate truth that there can be no balance between Hamelin versus Gremlins, but its true.

By adding a Wp->13 duel to Bully, you increase the effectiveness of The Void as most enemy crews will be forced to cheat to target Hamelin, especially if you make use of his Rats Cb(:crows)Rabies[Yellow Teeth] or The Stolen's No Humanity.

Honestly a Wp->13 duelmay seem like its gamebreaking specifically due to The Void, realize both the Rat Catchers and Stolen have a Wp->13 as well. (Ruffian, Harmless)

- - - -

The following change is supported by Sandwich and Ratty.

3.) Model Replacement

Currently, when a model is summoned off of the death of another model, (i.e. Malifaux Rats via Voracious Rats) they are placed in Base to Base Contact.

Normally, for any other crews, this means absolutely nothing. You have no reason to care.

But when it comes to a Hamelin crew utilizing the Rat Swarm, (See my Tactica if you want detailed instructions on howto) the Rats are effectively at a Wk of 6". (Base Wk 5 +1" for Base to Base contact when summoned.)

This makes it very easy for a Rat Swarm to sweep across the board very, very quickly.

The proposed change is to simply replace the dying model. (Not as in the Coryphee Replace, a new model is generated, just in the same spot.)

This change will work to slow the swarm down significantly.

It will also speed up beginner games by 50%.

Ask anyone, it's a pain in the ass to find a spot for each of your 14 rats twice a turn.

I am one of those Hamelin players.

In fact, I was the first.

Many of the strategies given were general strategies.

And I've provided numerous Anti-Hamelin tactics in numerous other threads.

I can recognize why he is considered Broken or OP.

All other crews in game can be fought with a generalized pool list and you will do well.

Hamelin must be played using his own strengths against him, or else you're pushing water uphill in the rain.

It honestly doesn't make him broken, once my pals and I broke Hamelin down piece by piece we were able to easily dismiss his strengths and turn him into a sloppy pile of poo.

The problem with the whole "Magic beat people with Hamelin" argument is bad, because Magicpockets is good.

I'm certain he could beat a lot of people with any master he wanted to.

Would that make Zoraida/ Seamus / Marcus broken because Magic beat 10 people with them?

Hamelin is not immediately approachable.

Without forethought, he is an overwhelming juggernaut of unstoppable evil.

But if you put forth the time and effort to think about how he works and then taking the steps necessary to tear him down, its good game Hamelin.

Witchling Stalker.

10" dispel.

AoE on casting flip.

Explodes on death.

I'm pretty sure I'm forgetting other sh*t in his bag.

Oh magic weapons.

For Nix.

That one model can wreck Hamelin, and the worst part, you can take more than one.

And if you're Sonia? Oh dear lawdy.

[Omenbringer]

...Many of the strategies given were general strategies.

And I've provided numerous Anti-Hamelin tactics in numerous other threads.

I can recognize why he is considered Broken or OP.

All other crews in game can be fought with a generalized pool list and you will do well.

Hamelin must be played using his own strengths against him, or else you're pushing water uphill in the rain.

It honestly doesn't make him broken, once my pals and I broke Hamelin down piece by piece we were able to easily dismiss his strengths and turn him into a sloppy pile of poo...

I have read the general anti-Hamelin suggestions both in this thread and the others and have also seen the majority of them quickly dismissed by Hamelin players (I have followed Hamelin for a long time, since I was rather worried about him after my initial experience against him more then a year ago). Even knowing his strengths and following the suggestions, victory is far from assured (less so with an experienced player running him).

Witchling Stalker.

10" dispel.

AoE on casting flip.

Explodes on death.

I'm pretty sure I'm forgetting other sh*t in his bag.

Oh magic weapons.

For Nix.

That one model can wreck Hamelin, and the worst part, you can take more than one.

And if you're Sonia? Oh dear lawdy.

I will agree that Hamelin might have to play a smarter game against a large amount of Witchling Stalkers and Sonnia Crid, however he does have a lot of tools to get around their strengths as well. Once again though it is far from assured victory for the Sonnia player.

Additionally Wyrd staffers have said a number of times on the board that the game should not devolve into rock-paper-scissors (not that I think Sonnia is Rock to Hamelin's Paper). One particular crew build that has a decent chance of consistantly beating another crew is esentially just that.

At any rate (as I have said a number of times already), re-balancing is an inevitable part of the game and is more then likely going to happen to at least a few of the Rising Powers models (I can understand the fear that a model might be "cuddled into uselessness", but Wyrd thus far has demonstrated that they are capable of intelligent revision). And believe it or not a lot of the "fixes" for the book 1 models came from threads such as these.

[Sandwich]

I have read the general anti-Hamelin suggestions both in this thread and the others and have also seen the majority of them quickly dismissed by Hamelin players (I have followed Hamelin for a long time, since I was rather worried about him after my initial experience against him more then a year ago). Even knowing his strengths and following the suggestions, victory is far from assured (less so with an experienced player running him).

I will agree that Hamelin might have to play a smarter game against a large amount of Witchling Stalkers and Sonnia Crid, however he does have a lot of tools to get around their strengths as well. Once again though it is far from assured victory for the Sonnia player.

Additionally Wyrd staffers have said a number of times on the board that the game should not devolve into rock-paper-scissors (not that I think Sonnia is Rock to Hamelin's Paper). One particular crew build that has a decent chance of consistantly beating another crew is esentially just that.

At any rate (as I have said a number of times already), re-balancing is an inevitable part of the game and is more then likely going to happen to at least a few of the Rising Powers models (I can understand the fear that a model might be "cuddled into uselessness", but Wyrd thus far has demonstrated that they are capable of intelligent revision). And believe it or not a lot of the "fixes" for the book 1 models came from threads such as these.

Wait, are we arguing?

Because it seems to me that you're pretty much spot on with everything you've said, and I'm spot on with everything I've said, and thus far we've just agreed and agreed again.

[Omenbringer]

No I wouldn't say arguing.

[Math Mathonwy]

Wait, are we arguing?

Because it seems to me that you're pretty much spot on with everything you've said, and I'm spot on with everything I've said, and thus far we've just agreed and agreed again.

Well, you said that defeating Hamelin is very easy, which I don't think is spot on and I doubt that Omenbringer (or pretty much anyone else) thinks so, either.

[Bigmike]

And round 7.....FIGHT! :hamelin :sad2:

[magicpockets]

Well, you said that defeating Hamelin is very easy, which I don't think is spot on and I doubt that Omenbringer (or pretty much anyone else) thinks so, either.

Did he?

[Odin1981]

I've pretty much stopped posting in this topic due to lack of anything constructive actually being argued/debated but here goes my last post on this thread.

From the perspective of a player that actually read hamelin and his units before playing against him here are what I percieve as his weaknesses:

Every good spell he has essentially he has to sac a unit to cast.

There are really only 3 target priorities to go after first in his list they are stolen (preferably a wp 6 or better terrifiying model to negate the harmless check and have a good chance of passing without needing to cheat wp 13 check for paralyzed), rat catchers, and nix none of these are really in any particular order.

For some crews (especially those of the low wp variety) killing hame might be good if for no other reason than when he comes back his cast is now at a 3 versus a 7.

Prioritizing capping stolen is not a bad tactic because with a defense of 5 hamelin can't act so proactively aggresive if he only has his wound profile keeping him alive.

Understanding as his opponent that it is very wise to take schemes that do not need to be completed by having non-insignificant models (kill protege on nix and the like).

If possible that you know your opponent might bring him load up on immune to influence models (notice how his crew as a whole has a plethora of wp resists for spells).

When killing stolen or his totem it is generally preferred to be able to target them outside of 6" to avoid a wp reduction.

If you have models that our in your faction with lure type abilities bring them in your list they are pivotal to pulling rat catchers outside of there armor 2 range of rats.

Jack Daw is great against him consider investing in this model to improve your options when taking him on.

If a rat is within 6" of a rat catcher or hamelin don't be stupid and try to kill them (duh they just come back for free and he can activate them again).

If you are playing goblins or any other majority ht 1 crew sorry not much your gonna be able to do (theory with a pigapult or two you might be able to whack him down) if said player continues to play hamelin against you common sense would dictate don't play the griefer again till you have more than that said crew.

From my personal perspective if you like the ortega's and have access to them use them (minus papa) shrug off screws him as well as having a wp of 8 when defending in duels so shoot, shoot, shoot till you reload, then shoot again some more.

[magicpockets]

^^ All awesome advice mate. Good round up. Remember as well that blast damage is your friend once the insignificant starts to spread.

[Necromorph]

Jack Daw is great against him consider investing in this model to improve your options when taking him on.

This. Jack Daw is one of the only models that makes me go, "Oh s**t," when I'm playing Hamelin.

[kizzle]

who doesnt go oh $#!% when facing Jack Daw?

[cerealkiller195]

really good advice Odin, though i have not faced hamelin yet (lucky enough to avoid any rounds in a tournament against him), really great tips when facing him.

[Omenbringer]

And round 7.....FIGHT! :hamelin :sad2:

Hey you missed the ring card girl...it takes here a little bit to get there.